Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Ragnorak]

Thanks for writing that up WK.

It occurs to me that his primary acts of kindness take place outside Tyrion's POV-- things like saving Sansa here or the gift of the saddle to Bran.

We talked about the dual nature symbolism of his eyes. Sansa places it as the "hard black one" and the "shrewd green one." The green eye color is typical of his father and siblings, but neither Cersei or Jaime come across as shrewd and the hard black eye seems for more like the side of Tyrion that embraces Tywin than his green shrewd side. Neither eye seems to symbolize love or honor.

Tyrion spends his own POV lying, manipulating, plotting and here he is really just bluntly honest with Sansa. He gives a very accurate account of a Lannister defeat with seemingly no motive beyond explaining the true motivations behind her ill treatment. He is even dispeling the lies other Lannisters told her. Quite a contrast.

Sansa is actually acutely aware that her fate and Jaime's are tied together. This was her first thought. I'm not sure why Tyrion didn't go the Jaime treatment route. Maybe it would be viewed as weakness by Joffrey and not received well. Sansa is supposed to be his future wife and given his Tysha thoughts it may be this was his gut reaction. One would think it occured to Cersei too and she'd be more attentive to Sansa's treatment. What would have happened if Joffrey actually went through with the full extent of his punishment and sent word to Robb as a warning?

[Winter's Knight]

I agree about Sansa. I don't think She is to be blamed for not accepting Tyrion's offer. We as readers know and understand her reason for not accepting but I don't think Tyrion does. From his POV he might well be offering a certain confort and assistance and was met with rejection. This is more evident later on when he is puzzled by her lack of response to what he consider are kind acts he has to her.

Which of course occurs after he weds her.

I suggest we keep the bit where he tells Sansa that she lies well when she tells him that she loves Joff, as I believe that in Storm he thinks that she still pines for Joff.

[Ragnorak]

I forgot these two quotes

Well, Robb Stark is my father’s bane. Joffrey is mine.

“Loyal,” the dwarf mused, “and far from any Lannisters. I can scarce blame you for that. When I was your age, I wanted the same thing.” He smiled.

That's quite the comparison of Joffrey to the enemy and given the future a bit accurate.

We have him thinking of Tysha again. In this case he is identifying Sansa with himself and Joffrey with the manipulator who used "love" to exploit. "When I was your age" also implies that it is no longer the case.

We also have the ugly savages, sellswords, and a fool stepping in and acting like the true knights led by the monsterous Imp.

[Lummel]

...The QoT points out that the Florents still consider the Tyrells upjumped stewards so she can't be oblivious to the consequences of a less legit gambit to be grab the throne with zero pretext. It strikes me that the status quo of a Lannister rule must have been pretty unappetizing to go the right of conquest route given the precedent it sets for Margaery's heirs.

...Once Robert died, Renly took off with Loras and their retainers immediately. Neither Renly nor Loras waited around to see what would happen with Ned acting as regent. It's as if their flight from KL, triggered by Roberts death, was a signal to begin their plans to take the IT, not only from the Lannisters, but also from Stannis and anyone else who might make a claim.

I think the damage was done here by Robert over throwing the Targaryens. Although he had a dynastic claim, its a personal regime, there is a consensus that it is acceptable but he doesn't establish the idea of a Baratheon dynasty, which is why I think it all flies apart once he dies.

Had King Bob arranged marriages between Joffrey and Maergary, Myrcella and Tristane of Dorne, Tommen and Arya (or maybe Tommen and Shireen and presumed on The Ned's love to marry off Edric Storm to Sansa or Arya) then things might have lasted for another generation. But there's no reason for anybody who is strong enough to respect the Robertian settlement.

[Lummel]

About softness and gentleness - Because this is Sansa's POV, she is incapable of accepting or appreciating "softness or gentleness" from anyone in the Lannister camp and that includes Tyrion. Sansa doesn't even think of him as Tyrion. To her, although her champion at the moment by calling a halt to her being beaten and stripped, she still thinks of him as the Imp. Sansa thinks:

Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound. . . the Hound hated knights. . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

...

I am not blaming Sansa for her mistrust of the Lannisters. However, in her POV, she cannot be trusted to give a accurate picture of how Tyrion really treats her. This is distinguishable from Tyrion and Jon's encounters we read earlier. Although, Jon did not trust Tyrion at first, given enough time they became "friends."

Again it is the non-knight who is chivalrous. I don't know if I agree that we can't trust Sansa's account of how he treats her from a factual point of view, but for sure since she reasonably enough hates all lannisters she's not going to ascribe any fancy or generous motives to him.

This is one of those interesting scenes that GRRM could have chosen to write from either his or her POV. We can only guess at Tyrion's motivation. Is it chivalric? Did it stir up memories of Tysha? Is it just a breach of proper behaviour? Fear of potential reprisals to Jaime? Fear of Joffrey going on to do something really stupid?

I agree about Sansa. I don't think She is to be blamed for not accepting Tyrion's offer. We as readers know and understand her reason for not accepting but I don't think Tyrion does. From his POV he might well be offering a certain confort and assistance and was met with rejection. This is more evident later on when he is puzzled by her lack of response to what he consider are kind acts he has to her.

Quite. Why should she trust Tyrion? She trusted Cersei, she trusted Joffrey and she learnt how that was repaid.

...We also have the ugly savages, sellswords, and a fool stepping in and acting like the true knights led by the monsterous Imp.

Yes and the point about Sansa's use of the word 'pet' might have been picked up, directly or indirectly, from Cersei - in Tyrion VI she says to Lancel "If he'd brought his pets, we'd smell them."

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - Not arguing that Sansa's factual recitation was inaccurate, only her emotional POV.

[Lummel]

Well in that case I fully agree with you, I think, :)

Although with the caveat that from her POV mistrusting Lannisters of what ever shape or size seems eminently sensible :laugh:

[Blisscraft]

Well in that case I fully agree with you, I think, :)

Although with the caveat that from her POV mistrusting Lannisters of what ever shape or size seems eminently sensible :laugh:

I agree. She shouldn't trust the Lannisters, but it's because of that mistrust of them, that as readers, we must be aware of as it colors her POV. It's like a mother testifying at the trial of her child. We know she probably won't risk an outright lie on her child's behalf, but the mother's testimony is colored by bias in favor of her child. With Sansa, she has been kidnapped (held against her will), physically tortured, sexually abused, emotionally abused (forced to watch her father beheaded). . . of course she has an opinion about the Lannisters and as readers we can draw the conclusion, based upon their ill treatment of her, that it is not a very high one. Her bias against them is well deserved, as her lies to them help her survive her unfortunate circumstances.

[Lummel]

While you're here Blisscraft, what about this fog:

Tyrion glanced out the window. The fog was so thick that he could not even see the curtain wall across the yard. A few dim lights shone indistinct through that greyness. A foul day for travel, he thought.

Do you think that this is GRRM using the pathetic fallacy? Or is it more of creating a sinister atmosphere?

I lured Little Wing here with the promise of symbolism and feel guilty if I don't try and get it mentioned now and again ;)

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - Far be it for me to dissapoint those seeking meaning. I can try.

First, earlier we read about Tyrion's looking through the window at the Broken Anvil Inn as he enters the bedroom with Shae. He has a view though the window. His view is "cloudy," but he can see the Great Sept of Baylor crowning Visenya's Hill. We discussed this previously, but there are "three" symbols present with this image: the clouds, the view of the Sept, and the window as the means to view. The clouds distract and may distort the view of the Great Sept, but the Sept can still be seen and recongnized. The Great Sept has many implications within the series, yet foremost is probably the death of the Hand, Ned Stark. Tyrion is his replacement. The widow "frames" the Sept and Tyrion views the site of the former hand's death while in an "inn" with his new found "whore" Shae. She distracts Tryion easily from the window view with a view of her nakedness.

Now, in the present chapter, he view from the council chamber is "foggy." Tyrion notices the fog through the window right after Petyr Bailish has set himself up to obain all of the appropriate documents to venture forth and win the Tyrells to the Crown's cause after the mysterious death of King Renly. Tyrion:

". . . glanced out the window. The fog was so thick that he could not even see the curtain wall across the yard. A few dim lights shone indistinct from that greyness. A foul day for travel, he thought. He did not envy Petry Baelish."

Fog in this view is extremely thick to the point where Tyrion's view is limited. Unlike the clouds mentioned above, fog is generally not associtated with the sky, but with the earth. Fog acts as a "blanket" and covers from the ground up not the sky down. Fog generally makes people proceed with caution. It can stop traffic, ground planes, and delay ships. It hides unseen dangers and so we must be careful. The clear light of reason is obscured and consequently, a traveller must slow to a crawl and rely upon something other than a "rational" approach.

This is one of those instances where I feel uncomfortable going much further than the above. (Mostly, because I recall Twain's admonishon regarding overanalyzing weather in books which could result in the analyst's being shot. A reaction to the purple prose of the "it was a dark and stormy night variety"). Yes, there are "a few dim lights," but "they are indistinct from that greyness." The dim lights could be a beacon like a lighthouse along a rocky and dangerous shore, once again requiring the need for caution. Or the dim light could be a "ray of hope" that although now not fully present, will soon be realized at some future time and place. The "greyness" that Tyrion notes as the color of the fog is a color associated with the Starks. The greyness may need to be burned away by the sun or light, in order for some clearer picture to emerge. Finally, the fact that LF, Petyr Baelish, is headed out into the fog may say something about him. He is a shady sort, brothel owner, ambitious up and comer, with no strong ties to anyone other than the Tulleys and Arryns, and those ties are suspect. He is someone who like the fog has come from the ground up and has covered who he really is and what he's doing with the Crown's money.

[Woman of War]

When Tyrion and Sansa talk we get again a glimpse at Tyrion's appearance through Sansa's eyes. She can hardly avert her eyes and has trouble not to stare because " his face was so ugly, it held a queer fascination for her". She is weirdly interested in his extreme ugliness. To the outside she manages to stay polite but she thinks of Tyrion as the ugly dwarf, the imp, not as the person Tyrion who after all has been the only one willing to stand up against Joffrey for her.

I guess Sansa is simply used to "normal", healthy and good looking people around her and her approach to Tyrion's looks is not very different from any person of the upper class who grows up away from everyday suffering and the ugliness of poverty and misery. And this approach is merciless. We are not only given another description of Tyrion but we realize how people approach him: not as person but defined by his looks , as ugly cripple.

[Blisscraft]

WoW - I agree with the way you characterize Sansa's "seeing" Tyrion. She sees him as a grotesque in addition to his being from an "ugly" (in political terms) family. Poor Tyrion. :crying:

[Blisscraft]

Thought about another aspect of Tyrion looking out of the window, not only in the inn, but also in the council chamber. The windows have frames. It may be foreshadowing of Tyrion being "framed" for the murder of Joffrey. It's a bit of a stretch, but twice in the same book seems to be more than a coincidence. :dunno:

[butterbumps!]

Riots! BTW, thanks WK and Winterfellian for filling in with the Sansa chapter.

TYRION IX

summary

This chapter opens with the royal entourage at the docks bidding farewell to Myrcella, who is to sail to Dorne as per Tyrion’s arrangement with Doran a few chapters back. Tyrion contemplates the state of affairs, and notes the misery and discontent of the commoners around the nobles as they make their way back to the keep.

A woman comes forward in protest, holding her dead baby; enraged by something Cersei says, she launches a verbal assault: “Brotherfucker!” The crowd begins hurling insults, “nightsoil” and other unsavory things at the nobles, and all hell breaks loose into a riot. The entourage rushes back to the keep.

Tyrion takes charge of the situation in the aftermath. Later that evening, he gets a report of the damages from Bywater, who also offers a full summary on the popular opinion of the Lannisters and Tyrion particularly. The chapter closes with Tyrion, Bronn and Varys discussing the benefits of having Tommen as king rather than Joffrey.

observations

• “The Martells would not commit to actual battle unless Dorne itself was attacked, and Stannis was not so great a fool. Though some of his bannermen may be. I should think on that.” I think I know of the very bannermen who might be such fools—the Florents are the epitome of Southron Fooldom. But that aside, I wonder what Tyrion has in mind here; this isn’t something that has come to fruition that we’ve seen so I wonder about this.
  
• Lollys is found by the gold cloaks along “Sowbelly Row.” Is this a sick joke (by Martin, I mean) that likens her to a “pig,” as she's referred to as, and/ or alludes to all the seed that was “sown in her belly?”
  
• “As much Jaime’s blood as Cersei’s:” This is a minor point, but I do find the characterization of Jaime and Cersei’s kids interesting. Tyrion notes that Myrcella “knew the proper words to say, and she said them with courage and dignity,” while Tommen cries. Tyrion by no means seems to look down on Tommen for crying here, but he holds Myrcella’s strength in high esteem; though not outright stated, I think her behavior represents what it means to be a pure Lannister to Tyrion.
  
• Bronn takes Tyrion’s discarded dinner (cold capon) and eats it himself without asking.
  

analysis

“I’m well fed and ugly, and they are starving”

The growing desperation of the smallfolk is the prevailing theme of this chapter- Tyrion contemplates this impending peril, the peril comes to a head, and Bywater gives an analysis on the peril, letting Tyrion know it’s assuredly not over. It hangs over everything.

I can’t help but consider Varys’ riddle in relation to this chapter on a few levels. The obvious connection is the fact that the mob undermined the power of the nobility in a very literal way; there was little to prevent the mob from physically violating the nobility, and indeed, several violations occurred. So it reinforces the aspect of the riddle that suggests power is in the eye of the beholder, and it’s extension, that the people’s failure to recognize a king or priest’s power is akin to their not having power.

Tyrion has already demonstrated that he understands the importance of keeping the smallfolk happy; he’s on a never-ending quest to keep Joffrey from instigating the public even more, and takes the threat of an unhappy populace seriously, as it could mean the city will turn itself over to Stannis willingly in the event of his invasion. He implicitly gets this part of the riddle—that popular opinion can yield a shift in power just as losing a war might.

Then we get another aspect of the riddle. The crowd lambastes the Lannister party and begins chanting for King Robb and King Stannis. But then those are soon forgotten as “King Bread ruled alone.” It would appear that basic sustenance is a prerequisite for adherence in “higher” beliefs. At this point, the crowd is probably going to be choosing the rich man, or at least, the city baker.

Toward the end of the chapter, Bywater clues us into something else. When Tyrion and Varys discuss the riddle initially, the question is raised about why the strong don’t rule if they are the ones who truly keep order. While it has been the case that those with might are willing to adhere to those who rule, Bywater suggests that this may no longer be working: “ My men are largely drawn from the smallfolk…Some talk openly of how much better things were when Robert was king, and hint that times would be better again with Stannis on the throne…” It would seem the Lannisters are having trouble maintaining power even over their enforcers.

Notably, the “priest” comes out last on all counts, both in Tyrion’s silent urging to for the blustering windbag Septon to get through his prayers, as well as the fact that he was pretty much drawn and quartered by the mob.

Tyrion + Cersei

Cersei quite palpably ignores Tyrion when he is beside her, turning her attentions to Lancel. Tyrion thinks, “I know your secret.” He then outlines his knowledge of her plotting with the Kettleblack brothers while disguised (again, the characters are shitting on the priest, as Cersei’s ruse is to pretend to visit the High Septon). Tyrion has learned of this from Lancel, and is matching Cersei’s payments to the KettleBlacks, so he believes that they are actually his, and that he’s outsmarted her. I think that this is the plot he had suspected she was “hatching” in the previous chapter that compelled her to give him that uncharacteristic kiss. At any rate, he is “amused to no end” by the fact that he’s figured this out and has subverted her influence.

Of course, we later learn that the Kettleblacks are trolling both of them, as they are actually LF’s.

Tyrion + LF

Speaking of LF, Tyrion recalls a conversation he had with Varys regarding LF’s progress with the Tyrells. Tyrion laughs at the suggestion that LF could be dead, and considers that the Tyrells are balking at the proposal: “If I were Mace Tyrell, I would sooner have Joffrey’s head on a pike than his cock in my daughter.” I think Tyrion is more right than he realizes here. I think that this is when LF and the Tyrells came to their “agreement” to get rid of Joffrey as part of the arrangement to unite with Highgarden. What’s also interesting about this (in hindsight) is that this chapter closes with Bronn’s suggestion to get rid of Joffrey and have the more tractable Tommen rule instead.

“The Others take your fucking cloaks!”

This whole scene is some of my favorite Tyrion. Upon reaching the safety of the keep and hearing Joffrey babble about the commoners’ treason, Tyrion slaps him so thoroughly his crown goes flying, gives him a tongue lashing and kicks him therapeutically: “It felt so good he might have done more.” His patience with Joffrey- already increasingly frayed—unravels completely in this chapter: “You spoiled witless little boy, you’ve killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!” I’m not sure if I fully understand Tyrion’s relationship with Sandor, but the fact that he shows genuine concern here and when he asks Sandor to go out and deal with the fire after he returns caught my attention (“The Others take me, of course he hates fire, he’s tasted it too well”).

Tyrion takes charge of the situation, despite the fact that both Joff and Cersei are present. He inventories who has made it through, and is the only one who notices that Sansa is missing. Now, I’m not thrilled by the fact that Tyrion’s first thought it not Sansa’s personal safety for it’s own sake, but rather the fact that without her Jaime is “as good as dead,” but at least he considers her. He gets into a (humorous) spat with a very dense Boros, but despite the fact that Tyrion is the one actually taking care of everything, it’s only when Cersei pipes in with a command that Boros obeys.

Sansa

Sansa comes through the gate riding with Sandor, “both arms tight around [his] chest.” Tyrion does speak to her gently, inquiring if she’s alright. Sandor tells him, “The little bird’s bleeding. Someone take her back to her cage and see to that cut.” I wanted to bring this up as a nice contrast in these two men as it pertains to Sansa. I’m not holding this against him, but Tyrion only thought of Sansa once back in the keep, and it was about the loss of a bargaining chip for Jaime. Conversely, Sandor made sure to escort her to safety seemingly instinctively. I also find Sandor’s comment to “take her back to her cage,” spoken to Tyrion, amusingly tongue-in-cheek. He’s basically calling out Tyrion (the Lannisters generally) as being Sansa’s jailor to his face.

“Wake. Him.”

Tyrion has trouble getting the KG to obey him, and Cersei intervenes on his behalf. The KG try to weasel out of the tasks Tyrion was asking them to do by basically saying that it’s not their job. This excuse doesn’t fly. Yet, when he asks his Storm Crows standing guard to bring him Timett of the Burned Men, they refuse. Tyrion thinks, “For a moment [he] had forgotten who he was dealing with,” and asks that they bring him Shagga instead. I think there’s something interesting about the fact that Tyrion is extremely flexible with and respectful of the wildling’s customs and doesn’t push his authority on them.

“You most of all, my lord.”

Tyrion receives a report of the days losses from Bywater, while he sits in his cold, dark room eating a cold capon in solitude. The High Septon, Ser Preston and Ser Santagar were killed, while Lollys was raped by 50 men, and Tyrek went missing. Tyrion demands that Tyrek be found, for sentimental reasons: “He’s no more than a boy. Son to my late uncle Tygett. His father was always kind to me.”

After hearing the report of how most of KL, including Bywater’s own gold cloaks, hate the Lannisters, Tyrion learns that they hate him most of all. Bywater explains that Tyrion is the variable that has changed, and that his presence in KL is correlated with the hardship that has recently come: “Your sister and the eunuch were here when times were better under King Robert, but you were not.”

Tyrion is aghast at this development and thinks, “Perhaps my lord father was right to despise me all these years, if this is the best I can achieve.” At the opening of the chapter, he was concerned with protecting the city from Stannis’ invasion (which admittedly serves his own agenda as well as the city’s safety), and he’s been increasingly concerned with the plight of the smallfolk (which again, does serve his agenda too). Nonetheless, I do think it’s a shame that Tyrion continues to be so hated amongst the smallfolk, since he is the only one with authority who seems to take them into any account whatsoever.

When Tywin first commanded Tyrion to come to KL and rule as Hand, we toyed with the idea of whether Tywin meant for him to be a lightening rod in this way. That is, whether Tywin knew that whoever was Hand at this point would have a nearly impossible and thankless task: that conditions would completely deteriorate, and whoever came in to rule would be hated. I think there’s a good chance that this is the case. There is something very sad in the fact that Tyrion’s thoughts are that he’s a failure, and that his father was right to hate him, especially considering that I believe Tywin expected this result.

Tyrion + Joffrey

Tyrion really keeps no holds barred this chapter regarding his feelings toward Joffrey. While at the docks, he overhears Joffrey verbally abusing Sansa: “Be quiet, or I’ll have Ser Meryn give you a mortal wound.” He looks over at Cersei, wondering if she is truly so “blind as to what he is.” He later unleashes his Joffrey-angst by beating him, and tells Varys that Joffrey “is not fit to sit a privy, let alone the Iron Throne.”

Varys comments that “an apprentice must be taught his trade,” but Bronn offers another suggestion: put Tommen on the throne. Tyrion is chilled by the thought, thinking, “No, he could not even think it. Joffrey was his own blood, and Jaime’s son as much as Cersei’s.” I believe Tyrion here. I don’t think he could ever bring himself to killing Jaime’s child, even if Jaime does not himself recognize the child as his.

Tyrion + Bywater + Bronn + Varys

I was wondering whether anyone had thoughts on how Varys might be playing Tyrion. We know that Bywater is Varys’, and he even asks Tyrion whether Tyrion has inquired to Varys about what the smallfolk think of him, which suggests that Bywater and Varys have discussed the matter. Bywater is a curiosity to me. He is undoubtedly competent, and seems just and fair, but he’s working for Varys. I find it interesting that a man who seems so righteous is someone’s creature, I wonder how this relationship was set up (i.e. what Varys offered him) and how this relationship impacts anything.

Similarly, I wonder if Bronn got the idea to off Joff from Varys. And I’ve wondered whether these two might actually have more interactions together than we’re led to believe.

[A wilding]

Good summary.

Re:

... Bywater is a curiosity to me. He is undoubtedly competent, and seems just and fair, but he’s working for Varys. I find it interesting that a man who seems so righteous is someone’s creature, I wonder how this relationship was set up (i.e. what Varys offered him) and how this relationship plays things out.

From what we know of Varys, he does not try to own people, he befriends them. So Ned saw someone truly trying to protect Robert, and Tyrion sees a useful ally who can assist his schemes. Bywater presumably also sees a version of Varys designed for him, possibly someone who understands the issues of the city guard and can assist with dealing with them.

[butterbumps!]

From what we know of Varys, he does not try to own people, he befriends them. So Ned saw someone truly trying to protect Robert, and Tyrion sees a useful ally who can assist his schemes. Bywater presumably also sees a version of Varys designed for him, possibly someone who understands the issues of the city guard and can assist with dealing with them.

I actually really like the idea that everyone sees a "tailor-made" version of Varys just for them, and I completely agree that he doesn't "buy" people in the traditional sense. I only wonder if "friendship of Varys" is enough for loyalty, and/ or whether they see him as someone who can truly offer them tangible benefits (non-material benefits, I mean). Do they truly trust him? Does he even need their full trust to get what he wants/ needs?

More accurately, I find Varys' choice of an explicitly incorruptible man quite fascinating. Bywater clearly has honor and competence. Where LF buys a jerk like Slynt, Varys has influence on a man with actual talent and clear respectability. I agree that Varys does this by softly influencing him with something close to friendship. To push further, LF wants people who feed him information and to do his bidding. What does Varys need a man like Bywater for exactly, as I don't believe that Bywater is the sort of man to do anyone's bidding, nor does Varys need him for information I'd think? Having a man like Bywater is almost like having Stannis in many ways, so I find it fascinating that Varys seeks to influence even those who are seemingly beyond influence. More directly, why does Varys want an upstanding guy like Bywater as head of the Gold Cloaks? What's his investment in a job done well there? To prevent the pot from boiling too quickly?

[Ragnorak]

Regarding Bywater, I think having a honorable uncorrupt man leading the Watch makes them loyal to Tyrion. Varys manipulating Tyrion and Bywater sees to it that Tyrion's plans for the Watch are carried out without interference. Recall how Cersei wanted Pycelle freed and Bywater said "No." It also ensures that LF's control of the Watch is eliminated. LF can only get to people through "gold reasons" and Bywater likely knows of his arrangement with Slynt making him untouchable by LF. Bywater also refers to Varys as "your eunuch" when talking to Tyrion. Bywater clearly believes Varys is controlled by Tyrion. He isn't Varys pawn as Tyrion first suspected or at least not in the way that Tyrion suspected. Tyrion is the pawn and Bywater is the pawn's vassal.

Your eunuch must have told you, there is small love for the Lannisters in King’s Landing. Many still remember how your lord father sacked the city, when Aerys opened the gates to him. They whisper that the gods are punishing us for the sins of your House—for your brother’s murder of King Aerys, for the butchery of Rhaegar’s children, for the execution of Eddard Stark and the savagery of Joffrey’s justice.

These are ironically the very same things Tyrion detests about his own family. Ned came up while he sent Slynt to the Wall, the sack and Rhaegar's children came up when he was shaving Pycelle, Rhaegar's children will come up again with Oberyn, and Tyrion's issues with Joffrey are legion.

Several threads have theories that Tyreck was kidnapped by Varys and that the mob uprising was his doing. Varys was absent and when asked for an explanation he replies:

“About the king’s business, my sweet lord.”

“Ah, yes, the king,” Tyrion muttered. “My nephew is not fit to sit a privy, let alone the Iron Throne.”

Varys shrugged. “An apprentice must be taught his trade.”

The idea that a King must be taught his trade comes up when Varys has his talk with Kevan over a shared crossbow bolt. Based on my technical truths theory of Varys I suspect he is being honest and that he was going about Aegon's business. He probably was involved in the riot, even Jaime suspects this while he is searching for Tyreck.

I think this is the point that Sandor's Lannister loyalty breaks.

His white cloak was torn and stained, and blood seeped through a jagged tear in his left sleeve.

Clegane was assigned to Joffrey and abandoned him to save Sansa. I do find Tyrion's reflexive concern for him interesting and I'm curious what other people think of that. It has me re-evaluating the "spirits of the air" comment back in GoT.

[Woman of War]

Short remark: I like the crackpot theory that Sandor and Tyrion will somehow become allies and develop a grudging respect for each other (I would LOVE do get the buddy comedy this might present :) . In the show there were hints this might happen with Bronn)

Back to Tyrion's care for Sansa in the riots: Nononono this is no whitewashing but I find it understandable that he thinks of Sansa first of all because of her value for getting back Jaime. At this point of the story Sansa is a random child for Tyrion that he pities and he has been willling to help her when it was needed. Broken things etc. But he loves his brother and Jaime's safety is paramount to him. Tyrion has at that time no idea that Sansa might ever be more to him, that he might end up feeling a personal responsability for her, that he might even come to a point to see her as erotically desirable. She is just some girl that has no personal link to him, who has explicitely not tried to come to an understanding with him after he saved her from Joffrey. She may be as nice as she wants, his brother is the person that counts here.

The same goes for ideas in these forums that it would have been the morally right decision of Tyrion to let Sansa go, to send her back to her mother. Why? She is the key to get his brother back and Tyrion, contrary to his father, has not given up on Jaime.

Imagine: you get a call from your child's kindergarden that your kid and another one have been run down by a car. One kid is seriously hurt, the other is ok, only the ambulance does not know which is which.

You know all the kids very well and you like them all. But don't you, in this moment, seriously wish that a child you really like may be hurt, the child of another mother? Please let it not be mine, this will be all you might think. You would otherwise weep for that child and defend it, save it from whatever but in that situation you wish disaster on him - so that it may please not be yours that got hurt. An awful wish and I guess any mother would secretly feel exactly that way.

Your own child is the closest to you. No matter if it is morally seriously wrong you wish that harm may have befallen the other one.

The same with Tyrion: he tends to help the helpless, he might even defend Sansa physically but acting in Sansa's favor and sending her away at the expense of his beloved brother's safety is asking too much. Can the "morally right" choice be expected here?

[Lummel]

...“I’m well fed and ugly, and they are starving”

The growing desperation of the smallfolk is the prevailing theme of this chapter- Tyrion contemplates this impending peril, the peril comes to a head, and Bywater gives an analysis on the peril, letting Tyrion know it’s assuredly not over. It hangs over everything.

I can’t help but consider Varys’ riddle in relation to this chapter on a few levels. The obvious connection is the fact that the mob undermined the power of the nobility in a very literal way; there was little to prevent the mob from physically violating the nobility, and indeed, several violations occurred. So it reinforces the aspect of the riddle that suggests power is in the eye of the beholder, and it’s extension, that the people’s failure to recognize a king or priest’s power is akin to their not having power...

Then we get another aspect of the riddle. The crowd lambastes the Lannister party and begins chanting for King Robb and King Stannis. But then those are soon forgotten as “King Bread ruled alone.” It would appear that basic sustenance is a prerequisite for adherence in “higher” beliefs. At this point, the crowd is probably going to be choosing the rich man, or at least, the city baker...

It very nice and Brechtian "

" or in Maslow's hierarchy of needs terms masses of the population have been pushed down to their most basic physiological needs and all that king or priest stuff is just irrelevant to them. In terms of Varys' riddle the answer is the sellsword will obey the purpose who offers what the sellsword wants. The person with whom he has a community of interest. The populous of King's Landing will follow anybody who can promise them bread.

I was thinking of that scene in "El Cid" when Charlton Heston says "I give you bread", uses his catapults to fire a few loaves into the besieged city which then promptly opens its gates to him - alack I can't find a clip of it though :( .Had Stannis used such a technique he might have enjoyed better success!

Tyrion + Cersei

Cersei quite palpably ignores Tyrion when he is beside her, turning her attentions to Lancel. Tyrion thinks, “I know your secret.” He then outlines his knowledge of her plotting with the Kettleblack brothers while disguised (again, the characters are shitting on the priest, as Cersei’s ruse is to pretend to visit the High Septon). Tyrion has learned of this from Lancel, and is matching Cersei’s payments to the KettleBlacks, so he believes that they are actually his, and that he’s outsmarted her. I think that this is the plot he had suspected she was “hatching” in the previous chapter that compelled her to give him that uncharacteristic kiss. At any rate, he is “amused to no end” by the fact that he’s figured this out and has subverted her influence...

What I like about this is that it is the mirror image of Tyrion activities. Tyrion rides out the the centre of corruption and then goes in disguise to his hired woman while his sister rides out to the centre of holiness and then goes in disguise to her hired men. Both the woman and the men prove to be purely coin operated and thus what the Lannisters say they want, what they believe they want but not actually what they need at all.

...From what we know of Varys, he does not try to own people, he befriends them. So Ned saw someone truly trying to protect Robert, and Tyrion sees a useful ally who can assist his schemes. Bywater presumably also sees a version of Varys designed for him, possibly someone who understands the issues of the city guard and can assist with dealing with them.

It reminds me a little of Tywin in Tyrion IX "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honour to any man he served." The choice of Bywater, a man of integrity, gives a bit of lustre to the crown.

There's a sense that Varys wins friends and influences people by building a sense of shared purpose and endeavour. Here, let me help you, lets work together he says, but your being manipulated to do what he wants.

...The idea that a King must be taught his trade comes up when Varys has his talk with Kevan over a shared crossbow bolt. Based on my technical truths theory of Varys I suspect he is being honest and that he was going about Aegon's business. He probably was involved in the riot, even Jaime suspects this while he is searching for Tyreck...

I was thinking along similar lines. That apprentice metaphor sets up Aegon the good apprentice nicely while we've all seen what Joffery is learning. "The child is the father of the man", so everybody has cause to fear the day when Joffrey reaches adulthood.

...Back to Tyrion's care for Sansa in the riots: Nononono this is no whitewashing but I find it understandable that he thinks of Sansa first of all because of her value for getting back Jaime. At this point of the story Sansa is a random child for Tyrion that he pities and he has been willling to help her when it was needed. Broken things etc. But he loves his brother and Jaime's safety is paramount to him...

I think so too. Tyrion is rarely purely nice, he might be doing Jon a favour by giving Bran a special saddle, but even there I feel there is an element of exchange - you give me friendship = I give you friendship. Here Sansa's value is that she is potentially redeemable for one Jaime (slightly used).

I was thinking how interesting it is just how often Tyrion is disobeyed in this chapter. The kingsguard won't obey Tyrion, they listen to cersei instead and Sandor only goes out because he needs to find his horse, the Clansman won't obey Tyrion either until he sends him for Shagga and then only grudgingly, finally and darkest Bronn and Tyrion. Bronn suggests how much easier things could be if Tommen was killed because they could control him - but look what he is doing to Tyrion at the same time!

Bronn is answerable to Tyrion as Tyrion is answerable to the King and Bronn is effectively ruling Tyrion here as he suggests that Tyrion do to a future good king Tommen. The eating is very interesting. It's not a shared meal. Bronn takes Tyrion's food just as he suggests Tyrion should take the king's power. He doesn't cut the capon. He sinks his fingers in and rips meat off (when did GRRM see me eat a chicken I wonder?). It is primal, greedy and grasping. Afterall manners suggest that if you are going to share a capon like that that you should rip the legs off and eat those or at least split the bird. Instead Bronn is claiming the whole thing. No one else will want this meal now. Tyrion beware?

[butterbumps!]

Short remark: I like the crackpot theory that Sandor and Tyrion will somehow become allies and develop a grudging respect for each other (I would LOVE do get the buddy comedy this might present :) . In the show there were hints this might happen with Bronn)

Back to Tyrion's care for Sansa in the riots: Nononono this is no whitewashing but I find it understandable that he thinks of Sansa first of all because of her value for getting back Jaime. At this point of the story Sansa is a random child for Tyrion that he pities and he has been willling to help her when it was needed. Broken things etc. But he loves his brother and Jaime's safety is paramount to him. Tyrion has at that time no idea that Sansa might ever be more to him, that he might end up feeling a personal responsability for her, that he might even come to a point to see her as erotically desirable. She is just some girl that has no personal link to him, who has explicitely not tried to come to an understanding with him after he saved her from Joffrey. She may be as nice as she wants, his brother is the person that counts here.

The same goes for ideas in these forums that it would have been the morally right decision of Tyrion to let Sansa go, to send her back to her mother. Why? She is the key to get his brother back and Tyrion, contrary to his father, has not given up on Jaime.

The same with Tyrion: he tends to help the helpless, he might even defend Sansa physically but acting in Sansa's favor and sending her away at the expense of his beloved brother's safety is asking too much. Can the "morally right" choice be expected here?

I hope I didn't seem like I was demonizing Tyrion for this. I don't know if I agree with the applicability of the example you offered about the hurt children, or think that Tyrion necessarily goes out of his way to help people, but I do think there was a benefit to Tyrion's thinking of Jaime immediately. Looking at the reactions of Cersei and Joffrey (and everyone else in the aftermath), Tyrion is the only one able to grasp the full political implication of what losing Sansa means. Where Joff just doesn't get it, and Cersei asserts that all the KG is 100% right to have abandoned his protection of Sansa in favor of Joffrey, Tyrion instead thinks immediately of Jaime, and I think this speaks fairly well for him from a political standpoint.

Like I said, I'm not thrilled that Tyrion doesn't think of Sansa's safety as its own virtue, but I see value in Tyrion's immediate political thought process; it doesn't show compassion, but it does show the ability to think clearly under pressure, which is a major trait I actually like about Tyrion in this chapter, especially when contrasted to everyone else's reaction and inability to see the big picture.

But on this other point, I am of the basic opinion that Tyrion is an able man in service to a dreadful cause. That's the root of my morality beliefs in his holding Sansa, but extends to his furthering Lannister objectives while knowing they are very wrong from every angle.