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Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)


Lummel

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A soldier who won't fight is worthless. Sandor has marketed himself as a sword, as a killer. But when it comes down to it his willingness to do so is strictly conditional. That is an impossibility, which is why Tyrion presses the matter. His sarcasm about the milk and blackberries is addressed at Sandor as much as at the other sellswords. Equally that's why Sandor has to run away I think - although really as a non-fighting soldier he's in good company with the likes of Boros Blunt.

Agree on the wildfire - dragonfire. We're meant to be impressed with the raw destructiveness. It's totally indiscriminate nature turns the social world of yielding and ransoming on its head.

I don't disagree with you, but I find a kind of disconnect between the two instances. I suppose maybe the question to ask is whether Tyrion would have similarly pressed the issue after the riot if Sandor refused the order to go out there too. Tyrion seems pretty sympathetic after the riot, and part of this is the revelation that is almost self-deprecating regarding his overlooking how traumatic going out into fire would be for Sandor. He shows a kind of concern, or even sympathy for the man. So I guess I'm surprised that this is something that Tyrion would have forgotten between the events, rendering him "shocked" that Sandor would be reluctant, which seems like a narrative discrepancy to me, as well as the fact that he commanded Sandor out despite knowing his horror. I'm not suggesting that Tyrion doesn't seem sympathetic here too-- he tries to reason with Sandor and explain his need--only that it seems disconnected a bit.

On a side note, I do love the contrast of non-knight Sandor covered in blood and dirt next to "superknight" Moore and his pristine white cloak.

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More recognition than sympathy perhaps?

"To lead men you must know them, Jon Snow. I know more of you now than I did this morning." Tyrion knows, or knew, that Sandor was scared of fire but that didn't register with him when it came to putting him in charge of the defence of a gate as part of a battleplan that involved the use of vast amounts of fire. Generally Tyrion's plan requires pushing his people further than they will go.

I suppose we could look at that and say that Tyrion is a poor leader, alternatively that he has limited resources and few choices. Tyrion is asking a lot of people and has been warned by both Bronn and Bywater that there is a limit to what he can get out of the sellswords and the gold cloaks. Is the battle a gamble or a disaster waiting to happen?

The destruction of the fleets has certainly outset Stannis' advantages in numbers by limited his ability to bring troops across the river, so Tyrion managed to win time.

Tyrion's use of Sandor here is thoughtless but that fits in to his musing to Sansa - his key hostage left at risk in King's Landing and with Tommen. It was Cersei's plan to send away the heir to the throne. Tyrion just took advantage of it. Has Tyrion been concentrating too much on dealing with his sister than on planning for the defence of King's Landing?

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Winterfellian: I love your citation of the Jade Compendium. I associate jade with this as well, and I think Tyrion's entranced descriptions likening the flames to dragonfire plays into this well. As you know, I have less than complimentary views on dragons, so this may be somewhat biased, but I think this wildfire business tells us all we need to know about what dragon-warfare will be like, and it's clearly awful-- for "highborn and commoners" alike. Rhaegal is jade-- that's how he's described repeatedly, and jade (the gem) is used to represent him in Dany's crown. But if this somehow foreshadows Tyrion's riding a dragon, I might get a bit nauseous, so I'll leave it there. (I like to delude myself into believing those monsters will go into retirement at Mount Doom before anyone else rides them)

Thanks! We think along the same lines. I definitely wouldn't object the dragons taking a lifetime vacation at Mount Doom ;)

Something that bothers me on the reread is that those ships loaded with wildfire were manned. Did those crews volunteer to go on those suicide attacks?

Thinking about this I see 2 important points. One is how much does the means justify the ends in the line of thinking of people commanding an army in Westeros? I agree that this soldiers probably didn't volunteer for this mission but I can't help but think that Tyrion's decision is as much his as it is a product of his environment. In other words, Tyrion isn't the only one using this violent means to justify winning a battle. Tywin pretty much did the same with the clansmen in AGOT, Robb also did it with the northern forces he send to distract Tywin, Stannis wanted to use the free folk as arrow fodder in ADWD. In the end, while it might not have been wildfire involve all the missions ordered by these people it still would have resulted in a great death toll. Keeping this into consideration, is Tyrion doing what is expected? If so, does that makes it the right thing to do? Is the use of wildfire instead of traditional methods what makes Tyrion's decision a more reprehensible act in our eyes? Personally I think it has something to do with this last statement. The wildfire was a game changer to which the enemy had little to no chance of reacting.

Unfortunately we don't have POVS from Tywin, Robb or Stannis to compare, yet Tyrion after doing something very similar to what others in Westeros might have done feels at least a tinge of something similar to regret:

This is your (Stannis) work. As much as mine

For me this speaks of a certain guilty conscience and it stands in contrast with Tyrion's reaction to Masha Heddle's hanging in AGOT where he liberated himself or his family from any guilt by thinking to himself that he only wanted a room or something like that.

The other point is that while we have Tyrion sending willing/unwilling men to their demise, we also have him genuinely concerned for the welfare of Alayaya. All his efforts to keep Joffrey saFf are for the purpose of keeping Alayaya safe:

Am protecting your wreteched bastard as well as I can Cersei. See that you do the same for Alalaya

The fact that he's willing to send thousands of men to their deaths yet still manages to empathize and try to protect a woman (and a whore nonetheless, which many others would have deemed too insignificant to worry about) Is another contrast of Tyrions natures, the dark and the white.

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This chapter reveals a recurrent theme in the books with regard to fighting/war: the tourney style playing at fighting for a prize versus the real war fighting for your life fighting. Also, it shows that when you fight for your life, you may "go overboard," so to speak. Tyrion goes overboard with wildfire. He knows how dangerous it is, he's had men practising with jars for awhile now. However, there is a sense that when Tyrion resorts to a weapon of mass destruction, like wildfire, if he's going down, he's taking everyone else with him. Fire will consume whatever it can regardless. The choice is to play to win, but it becomes a game with nothing but losers.

As to the Hound, he is not, nor will he ever be a soldier any more than he will be a knight.

About green - it is a color of transformation. Change. Here, as in the green of the wildfire, it is changing the way that men on each side fight and die, by fire as well as by sword.

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I like the Jade being used for destruction and green for beauty observation. It fits in well with Jade representing the indiscriminant destruction of dragonfire. Selmy's thoughts on how the dragons will react if a battle breaks out comes to mind as well. Good point on the ships, Lummel. I forgot the Queen Cersei is repaired. It is the one taken to Dragonstone by Aurane Waters IIRC. The tournament vs real war is also a very good point.

There are a lot of things that echo back to earlier parts of Tyrion's story. Perching like a gargoyle is how Jon saw him, the Field of Fire fits with his recollections on his trip to the Wall. Tyrion started as this man of leisure and this journey has been a learning experience. It seems to be the point where everything he has learned is being applied and tested. He isn't perfect. He should have sent Sansa away with Tommen. He still has some learning to do.

Overall I get a positive impression of Tyrion especially compared to his Masha Heddle reaction. I don't hold the measures he takes in battle here against him. Some things are beyond is control and this battle being fought is one of them. He can't win this battle with the resources he has. On one level both Tyrion and Stannis were faced with a no win situation and turned to "fire" to forge an opportunity. Tyrion's goal here is to buy time. He'll lose in time no matter what based on his own resources but in time Tywin may show up with an army.

He recognizes the toll his actions are having on people and does not consider himself entitled to dispose of their lives because he is a Lannister. He wishes he didn't have to put men on thiose ships but knows the ploy wouldn't work without them. He tried to think of an alternative. He controls himself around Joffrey fairly well compared to many of the earlier scenes. At the end he applies what he learned of himself and battle to lead the defense of the gate. Even with Sandor he doesn't threaten or lash out. He sees the root of the problem and tries a different tactic. (I think Sandor is gone already and nothing anyone could do can change that.) He's willing to take the same risks that he's asking these men to take and that is at the very core of leadership. He's using his own life as collateral to buy what gold can not. At the beginning of last chapter he arrives at Cersei's in Lannister colors and at the end of this chapter he explicity rejects everything Lannister with both his words and actions.

Tyrion's choice here to lead the men himself will probably forever alter his public perception throughout all of the nobility in Westeros-- even if it is only from The Imp to The Imp*

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Thanks, WK.

He will be the Imp with an asterisk even when mocked. The smallfolk will likely never love him, but in a society that values martial prowess as much as Westeros this is no small deed and the nobles will know the truth of the tale. It will stand out even more because he is just a dwarf and he fills the Hound's shoes. The tale of Sandor leaving diring the battle adds to tyrion's. The impending lack of a nose and ghastly scar will also add to the notoriety of the deed. He's earning a respect money can't buy from more than just the 40 men who follow him.

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Ragnorak...I'm not sure how to ask this so I'll just flop it out...but have you read ASOS? ;)

You are a cruel, cruel man.

I was thinking of this:

“No, my lady,” Ser Garlan said. “My lord of Lannister was made to do great deeds, not to sing of them. But for his chain and his wildfire, the foe would have been across the river. And if Tyrion’s wildlings had not slain most of Lord Stannis’s scouts, we would never have been able to take him unawares.”

I don't imagine Garlen is unique in this appreciation. In fact I suspect Tywin's claim of credit rubs most of Highgarden the wrong way and they include Tyrion among the shortchanged. If a knight were placed under Tyrion's command back in GoT I suspect he'd probably alternate between laughing and crying. After this battle it isn't that I think the knight would be fond of the assignment just that he'd limit himself to the crying part. My point is really that this earns him the prerequisite respect in Westeros to lead without being laughed at in his cups like a Waymar Royce whose only command qualification is birth status. In terms of Tyrion transcending his Lannister prison this is a significant development.

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yeeeeees...

OK I have a rather contrary reading to this.

First only Garlan makes that comment but Garlan certainly has a motive to be complimentary to Tyrion which we shall discuss in the future.

More importantly remember the songs that are sung about the battle. We know that songs are the basis of historical memory in Westeros and we notice that Tyrion's part, the Lann the Clever business of the wildfire and the chain is forgotten and Tyrion acting as a war leader, leading his men into battle is also forgotten.

He might be personally be transcending Lannisterism but for the impartial observer doesn't he remain a twisted monkey demon - in which case perhaps fighting demoniacally is even expected of a monstrous imp that killed his own mother during child birth?

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You could be correct. I had misremembered part of the way that conversation took place and I somehow thought Gyles had agreed with the assessment when it was made which doesn't seem to be the case. I still suspect the Highgarden contingent is less than pleased with Tywin taking the lion's share of the credit, but we're not there yet.

I do think that his getting the men to follow him outside of typical Lannister means is an important development for him though. It also fits with him applying the lessons he's learned.

His brother Jaime had always been able to make men follow him eagerly, and die for him if need be. Tyrion lacked that gift. He bought loyalty with gold, and compelled obedience with his name.
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Jade, (jadeite) the gemstone, comes in many shades of green, as well as other colors such as white, yellow, black and sometimes even violet. (Athough, violet jadeite is very rare). GRRM certainly knows this sort of fact because he refers to dfferent gemstones all the time, as well as the possibility of rare colors within a type of gem, such as black amethysts.

Jade in the chapter's context most likely means a shade of green as opposed to the color of "non wildfire" fire --- just a dull average orange and scarlett. Its green appearance distinguishes the places that are simply burning as opposed to those places that have been ignited by the green "substance" which burns seems to burn water.

What strikes me most about this chapter is how Tyrion takes the reins and begins to lead, to lead by example, to truly lead. It's not simply the warcraft type planning with the chain and the wildfire that compels the possibility of victory, but Tyrion's reckless, foolishly courageous need to put himself in harm's way with a ragtag group of sellswords and soldiers. Yes, he plays the "shame card," but he throws himself into the thick of it, too. It's very "once more unto the breach" stuff. Theatrical, moving, self-sacrificing. It's made all the more dramatic by, "He thought they were following, but never dared to look." He really doesn't have to look and neither do we. Of course, the men are with him, as are we.

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This chapter is largely a part two to the last. It is follows both chronologically and thematically.

Tyrion XIV (ACOK)

Summary

Last chapter ended with Tyrion's transition from observer to participant and now we see him plunge into battle. He leads a charge at the men with the battering ram and they successfully defend the gate. Tyrion sees more fighting by the river and chooses to join it. He briefly thinks that he should go back but the battle fever is upon him and he goes forward. Several of the wrecked ships clustered together forming a makeshift bridge and some of Stannis's forces are using it to cross. After some fighting Tyrion's horse breaks its leg and he finds himself fighting on the deck of one of the wrecked ships. A stone thrown from one of the Whores hits "the bridge" and it begins to come apart. Tyrion falls and water begins to fill his helm so he removes it. As he struggles to not drown he sees Stannis's forces fighting Tywin's and the Tyrell's but doesn't understand what is happening. Mandon Moore offers him a hand to supposedly help him out of the water. At the last moment Tyrion flinches so the swing of the sword doesn't kill him. Mandon comes to finish him off but is killed by Pod who Tyrion in his delirium thinks is Jaime.

Observations

The foot of the bridge was a half-sunken enemy galley with Dragonsbane painted on her prow, her bottom ripped out by one of the sunken hulks Tyrion had placed between the quays.

This seems like something but other than the dragon/wildfire similarities nothing comes to mind.

The slot in his helm limited Tyrion’s vision to what was before him

Tyrion's attempts to protect himself from Cersei have also limited his vision to what was before him.

On the left, Tyrion was surprised to see Podrick Payne, a sword in his hand. “You’re too young,” he said at once. “Go back.”

“I’m your squire, my lord.”

Tyrion has earned some loyalty that money can't buy. His instinct to protect the boy is both admirable and at the root of this loyalty. Most of Tywin's "gifts" to Tyrion are poisoned. He has made this one his own though.

It was only at the very last, as their fingers brushed across the gap, that something niggled at him… Ser Mandon was holding out his left hand, why…

There on the deck of the next ship, across a widening gulf of black water, stood Ser Mandon Moore, a hand extended. Yellow and green fire shone against the white of his armor, and his lobstered gauntlet was sticky with blood

We have two references to hands regarding Mandon Moore. The green fire made me inclined to connect this back to the green from last chapter. Moore was also in a green shadow that chapter. Instead I think the three colors refer to a House. House Butterwall's arms are " Undy green, white, and yellow." In The Mystery Knight House Butterwall had an encounter with another Hand involving bastards and thrones and I think this might be Martin's reference. This post by Tze comparing Bloodraven and Varys comes to mind. This is the end of Tyrion's time as Hand and it began with him pondering the fates of previous Hands. I can't help wondering if this is a subtle clue.

Analysis

We have a continuation of the theme of beauty and destruction. This is a color rich chapter and I suspect the primary element of that is an echo of the colorful fires beauty in its indiscriminate destruction. Much of the early color focus is on House colors and banners. Last chapter Tyrion thought that some weapons can be aimed but wildfire kills everything. Here we see that though in theory men can select their targets it doesn't always work that way in practice.

A splintering crash rang across the Blackwater as a stone the size of a horse landed square amidships on one of the galleys. Ours or theirs?

stones spun and tumbled overhead, crashing down blindly onto earth and water, steel and flesh

The destruction is blind in its discrimination and is impacting both the people and the land. One of the Antler Men lands just before the rock that shatters the ship Tyrion is on. He was almost killed by his own men-- given the Antler Man it might even have been Joffrey. Possibly his last act before Cersei had him dragged back to the Keep.

Through Arya we saw the truth of the class distinction and knightly honor with yielding. In keeping with the indiscriminate destruction, here we see how little war cares for birth status.

“I yield, ser,” a different knight called out, farther down the river. “Yield. Ser knight, I yield to you. My pledge, here, here.”

In the sudden stab of light he saw that the puddle was not black but red. The gauntlet still had the knight’s hand in it. He flung it back. “Yield,” the man sobbed hopelessly, helplessly. Tyrion reeled away.

We also see Winterfellian's observation about Tyrion transitioning from emulating Tywin to Jaime here. Not only is he in the role Jaime would play but he mimic his impulsive nature as well.

His wedge was gone; every man was his own battle now. I should have turned back, he thought, riding on.

When his horse reared again, he shook his axe at the stars and heard them call out “Halfman! Halfman!” Tyrion felt drunk.

The battle fever. He had never thought to experience it himself, though Jaime had told him of it often enough.

We'll see in Sansa's POV next that this impulsive choice could have cost everything. Lancel complains to Cersei

Gods be damned, Cersei, why did you have them fetch Joffrey back to the castle? The gold cloaks are throwing down their spears and running, hundreds of them. When they saw the king leaving, they lost all heart. The whole Blackwater’s awash with wrecks and fire and corpses, but we could have held if—

Tyrion's choice here meant that he wasn't there to ensure Joffrey stayed. We see how the lack of family unity would have destroyed them.

I got a bit of an Id taking over sense with Tyrion not turning back. He was shouting "Kings Landing" and his men had picked up the "Halfman" battle cry showing that despite his stated reasons of saving their own skins they are truly following him here. With battle fever comes the cry of "Lannister" and the impulsive emulation of Jaime.

Finally

Then someone was kneeling over him. “Jaime?” he croaked, almost choking on the blood that filled his mouth. Who else would save him, if not his brother?

Something about this struck me as truly sad. He would have died here believing the only person who ever loved him in the slightest was his brother. All the more sad when one considers their reunion.

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The left hand is, of course, sinister! :)

I don't think the antler man was fired directly at Tyrion, it's more an indication of how far he has gone across the river. If Tyrion is an annoying target for an archer then he's all the worse for a catapult crew.

The presentation of war is a world away from my memories of reading LOTR in which death in battle is noble even if tragic. Here battle is horrific and we expereience it emotionally through the unwilling horse, the screams and drunken confusion. The songs that are sung about the battle at Joffrey's wedding are cleaned up and santisied.

The sense of confusion and strictly limited perspective seems true to me and reminds me of Joinville's account of the battle of Mansurah during the crusades or Commynes account of the battle of Montlhery (sections 3 and 4 of the link).

GRRM's handliing of the battle could easily have become a glorification of savage volence bu I think he generally avoids by concentrating on the emotions (Catelyn at the Whispering Wood) and the confusion (Tyrion at the Greenfork). My abiding sense is of the horror and the pity of war. We see the tranformation of the knights of summer, those who are badly wounded will never fight again, educated like the Elder Brother since childhood for a martial life their lives in a sense will end here.

We might look at Tyrion as a figure of horror. The Imp, the twisted monkey demon, his chest and arms covered in the blood of his own horse must look as though he is fresh out from Hell. Being covered in blood is interesting since we know he was originally born in blood is this a transformative moment of rebirth for him? Or is that moment suggest the horse sacrifice of the time of the Vedas in ancient India or the bull sacrifice of Mithras (a kind of R'hllor deity of the Romans) ? Perhaps the horse is just another innocent victim trained for war which will consume him as certainly as wildfire.

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The foot of the bridge was a half-sunken enemy galley with Dragonsbane painted on her prow, her bottom ripped out by one of the sunken hulks Tyrion had placed between the quays.

Robert B. was Dragonbane too and he had his guts ripped out by a boar.

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I didn't mean to imply Joffrey was trying to kill him, more irony than intent. I took the Antler Man as a sign that the blow came from his own side emphasizing the indiscriminate nature of even the aimed weapons. Joffrey can't hit rabbits with a crossbow and moves his lips when he reads. The trigonometry of projectile arcs is almost certainly beyond him. I don't think anyone but Joffrey had much interest in tossing the Antler Men once the bet of how far they flew was settled. As far as the timeline goes this places his recall by Cersei after this shot so the Gold Cloaks likely break about the same time Tyrion falls.

It is interesting that you bring up the LoTR comparison. I think the closest thing we have to the brutal nature of war there is when Sauron's forces use catapults to launch the dead men of Gondor into the city. Meereen will be a more direct parallel (and Tyrion will be there as well) but the Antler Men did make me think of that scene. Grond, the battering ram used in LoTR, was made of black iron in the shape of a wolf's head. Here it is black oak with an iron head. They might be intentional references.

Tyrion starts out in control and organized and literally shapes the men to his will in the form of a wedge. His view, understanding, and control of what is around him deteriorates over the course of the chapter. At the end he can't even understand that it is Pod standing over him. I do think there is an element of glorification it is just overshadowed by the reality of the horrors and the emotions. There were men cheering on the walls as those human being were being consumed in the flames of wildfire. Tyrion himself notes the beautiful awe in the visuals of the death and destruction. I think the end result of Martin's telling is that the glory of battle is put on a scale with the toll of war and the human cost overshadows it.

I wasn't sure what to make of the horse. It seemed a merciful and caring act to put it out of its misery. Compare these two:

He led his troop among them, delivering quicker cleaner deaths to those strong enough to stand.

His horse had broken a leg and was screaming horribly. Somehow he managed to draw his dagger, and slit the poor creature’s throat. The blood gushed out in a scarlet fountain, drenching his arms and chest.

Then there's this

Ser Mandon Moore took the place to his right, flames shimmering against the white enamel of his armor, his dead eyes shining passionlessly through his helm. He rode a coal-black horse barded all in white, with the pure white shield of the Kingsguard strapped to his arm.

At the ram his big red reared but the black stallion leapt the obstacle smoothly and Ser Mandon flashed past him, death in snow-white silk.

Tyrion's horse also stumbles over a corpse and the red crab kills Swann's horse. I do like your sacrificial and rebirth takes. It does have that feel.

WK, love the metaphorical way you connected those two.

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I agree that killing the horse was a mercy. We learn later that medical services for the human wounded are limited. I imagine that care even for the expensive war horses will be limited to being dumped in a healthful pot o' Brown. Still it is interesting that in the midst of his battle drunkenness that Tyrion attends to it. It's a parallel to the slaughter of his horse before the fight with the clansmen too, mind you he also losses his horse in the battle of the greenfork. Being Tyrion's horse seems to be the equine equivalent of wearing a red shirt.

The men on the wall cheer, yet we learn that later they will run away. It's all emotion. From one extreme to the other.

Agree on the shifting perspective. From the beginning of Tyrion XIII when he sees the whole battle and understands what is going on to the end point of this chapter when suddenly not only can be barely make out what is going on but more importantly he doesn't understand what is happening. Nothing makes sense.

I suppose if you want to talk about player to pawn then it is an extreme immersion into the lower depths of the game of thrones. Nothing makes sense. You do (because there is no try) but everything is meaningless. It's only afterwards that you can turn over those stones in the Vale.

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