Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Loras]

Agree on the shifting perspective. From the beginning of Tyrion XIII when he sees the whole battle and understands what is going on to the end point of this chapter when suddenly not only can be barely make out what is going on but more importantly he doesn't understand what is happening. Nothing makes sense.

I suppose if you want to talk about player to pawn then it is an extreme immersion into the lower depths of the game of thrones. Nothing makes sense. You do (because there is no try) but everything is meaningless. It's only afterwards that you can turn over those stones in the Vale.

There are some excellent posts in this thread - it has been a fantastic read!

When I read this chapter, I too noticed the shifting focus of the narrative. For me, this was not about descending from player to pawn. It was more about reminding Tyrion of his own humanity. He is after all just a man.

There is this tendency towards detachment in the King's Landing chapters; especially in 'A Clash of Kings' and 'A Feast for Crows', from the Ivory tower of the Red Keep to how life is on the streets. We see it raise its head on occasion such as the Bread Riots and when nobody lines the street for Tywin's funeral. Yet during the battle, Tyrion is just a man fighting for the city.

The shift in focus is about going from commander to soldier - it takes him down a peg or two - after all he is still a man and he will die the same as other men. (IMO Cersei's walk has the same effect of reminding her that she is as human as everyone else).

[Lummel]

That's an interesting take Loras because so much of a POV can be (ok often implicitly) about status but here the hero is just simply a man.

I would point out the battle cries too. Kings landing is what Tyrion suggests - we are fighting for the city. Halfman - we acknowledge Tyrion as our leader. Lannister "They seemed little things, and fearful.'Lannister!' he shouted, slaying". Tyrion seems to find himself here, not cerebrally but instinctively.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Green and silver are the colors of House Baelish. There is no reference to silver (unless one wants to stretch white) but I thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone had any thoughts.

That's no stretch at all. Green and silver are the heraldic colors of House Baelish, but in the real, physical world, it is green and white dye or paint or whatever material is used. It ties in with the red and yellow flames losing against the green wildfire. Red and yellow translated from physical to heraldic are Red and gold, Lannister colors.

[Blisscraft]

Everything old is new again - Wildfire the "old" secret weapon is now the new one. There's a change in warfare here in the Battle of KL. It's like cannons or flintlocks; Gaitling guns and tommy guns; war planes and jet planes; napalm. . . None of these weapons recognize friend or foe; only destruction. That was my point with regard to the earlier chapter and which continues through this one. Change has come. The "greening" of the landscape is not the color of renewal, but change (for the worse) in warfare. The clearest example of this is referred to above when the knight yields, but it is all for naught. His arm is taken by a pot of wildfire.

Dragonsbane - Jaime would qualify as dragonsbane, too. He seems fairly relevant as Tyrion throughout this chapter thinks of him.

The Great White Knight - Is it just me, or does the constant reference to Mandon Moore as big, white, dead eyed, ever moving remind anyone else of the great white shark in Jaws? Also, the great white is killed in the film by the one least likely to accomplish the killing as here in the chapter: Pod.

The Horse - If it means anything, it's probably an illustration of how the battle is a "blood bath." :P

[Winter's Knight]

Dragonsbane - Jaime would qualify as dragonsbane, too. He seems fairly relevant as Tyrion throughout this chapter thinks of him.

So if the widfire signifies Cersei, then Jaime is the unsteady bridge that joins her to Tyrion, no?

[Blisscraft]

So if the widfire signifies Cersei, then Jaime is the unsteady bridge that joins her to Tyrion, no?

Not in the wildfire=Cersei camp. But I like the idea of a "rocky" bridge in a family ful of rocky relationships.

[Ragnorak]

Not in the wildfire=Cersei camp. But I like the idea of a "rocky" bridge in a family ful of rocky relationships.

I do like your change idea. Wildfire is essentially fake dragon fire. The world has changed and across the sea there are real dragons on the horizon. After the series of POVs for this battle we do jump to Dany looking for a ship and this is where she meets Selmy. There is also the change seen up North.

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?”

Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.”

I'm not 100% sold on Cersei=wildfire either. I do find the lack of family unity angle compelling. Her actions are just as harmful to the Lannisters as they are to their enemies. Then there is also the idea that it was her adultery and plotting that set the stage for all this destruction to begin with. I read through Davos and Sansa to see if anything jumped out. The battle does tie all these POVs togther.

From Sansa:

The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.

There is also the confession that she has Payne there to behead them which is another form of indiscriminate destruction. We also see that while Tyrion inspired these men to fight that same act is what "breaks" Cersei.

“Oh, spare me your hollow courtesies. Matters must have reached a desperate strait out there if they need a dwarf to lead them, so you might as well take off your mask. I know all about your little treasons in the godswood.”

Davos was a loaded chapter and seems to have much more connection to Tyrion.

The river that had seemed so narrow from a distance now stretched wide as a sea, but the city had grown gigantic as well. Glowering down from Aegon’s High Hill, the Red Keep commanded the approaches. Its iron-crowned battlements, massive towers, and thick red walls gave it the aspect of a ferocious beast hunched above river and streets.

This seems a parallel to Tyrion perched like a gargoyle. It also associates him with red, though for Davos red is a haunting color because of Mel.

There's other items like

The pothelm was visorless; he hated having his vision impeded.

Davos too leads a charge but his helm protects him from his blow to the head.

And even a bit of a sellsword compare

Salladhor Saan was a resourceful old pirate, and his crews were born seamen, fearless in a fight. They were wasted in the rear.

Davos and his sons also paints a picture of family unity we fail to see in the Lannisters or Baratheons. He even reflects

near twenty thousand knights, light horse, and freeriders, Renly’s unwilling legacy to his brother.

For Davos the fire is hell and Melisandre and the green fire is unnatural like she is. No Cersei there that I could see. I suppose you could hammer this one but I don't see it.

A flash of green caught his eye, ahead and off to port, and a nest of writhing emerald serpents rose burning and hissing from the stern of Queen Alysanne. An instant later Davos heard the dread cry of “Wildfire!”

Though we do get some foreshadowing and symbolism that is quite interesting.

Dog’s Nose was afire and Queen Alysanne was locked between Lady of Silk and Lady’s Shame, her crew fighting the boarders rail-to-rail.

the fiery heart had been raised over Joffrey’s Loyal Man. Fury, her proud bow smashed in by a boulder, was engaged with Godsgrace.

Directly ahead, Davos saw the enemy’s Kingslander drive between Faithful and Sceptre. The former slid her starboard oars out of the way before impact, but Sceptre’s portside oars snapped like so much kindling as Kingslander raked along her side.

Sceptre had lost most of her oars, and Faithful had been rammed and was starting to list.

Between Loyal Man and Dog's Nose we have Sandor's fate foreshadowed. We also learn he was in the thick of it.

Davos recognized the dog’s-head helm of the Hound. A white cloak streamed from his shoulders as he rode his horse up the plank onto the deck of Prayer, hacking down anyone who blundered within reach.

Sceptre and Faithful seem to foreshadow the future of the crown and the Faith in Kings Landing. Queen Alysanne strikes me as a giant symbolic something but that's way off topic.

From Davos we can piece together that Queen Alysanne, Lady of Silk and Lady’s Shame are three of the ships with Dragonsbane that form the bridge.

Davos and Sansa are also heavy with religious imagery (especially Davos), which I didn't get from Tyrion at all. As a last observation, Cersei's thoughts also go to Jaime. While she thinks of Jaime earlier her focus narrows to Joffrey in a somewhat similar way to Tyrion's narrowing focus.

[Lummel]

I was thinking how this is an opposite point to Tyrion I AGOT. The man of leisure, the constant reader there is in contrast with Tyrion who finds delight in war "Those are brave men...Let's go kill them." and who has enjoyed engagement in the political life of King's Landing.

ETA - Ragnorak, what leads you to read these chapters as showing a glorification of war?

[butterbumps!]

Sansa VII: Tyrion is believed dead when Lancel comes into the Queen’s ballroom to give his report. When Sansa makes her way back to her bedroom, she finds Sandor waiting there and a song is requested from her. Of note is Sandor’s words regarding fire, and of Tyrion in particular:

The burnt half of his face was a mask of dried blood. “Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago.”

“He’s dead, they say.”

“Dead? No. Bugger that. I don’t want him dead.” He cast the empty flagon aside. “I want him burned. If the gods are good, they’ll burn him, but I won’t be here to see. I’m going.”

Sansa VIII deals with the pomp and circumstance of the rewards and punishments of those variously loyal and hostile during the Blackwater battle. Of foreshadowing note is Tywin’s horse, in all splendor and finery, “dropping a load of dung at the base of the throne.” There was some speculation early in this project that Tywin’s appointment of Tyrion was a sort of booby prize, in that given the conditions at KL, there needed to be a competent leader at the helm, but that the people would not love him for his efforts. I think it’s significant for discussion that while Tyrion came into the Hand’s position very unceremoniously—with merely Tywin’s letter at the small council—Tywin’s Hand appointment is an extensive public affair; there is no question of his authority.

Tyrion XV

overview

The chapter is largely told from a kind of dream state. Tyrion begins in a cellar close to the site of his injury outside the gates where the silent sisters are stripping bodies, briefly wakes again to see himself being moved toward the city gates, then is taken to a featherbed in a room above the Queen’s ballroom.

In bed, he slips into a few more dreams: a feast and Tysha’s cottage. When he finally wakes, he demands his bandages cut off his face by the maester, one Ballabar who belongs to the Tyrells. Then Tyrion angrily commands the maester for a mirror to see the extent of his injuries. After a Jack Nicholson- Joker moment, he solicits information from the maester, and is incensed when he learns that Cersei had him put here so that she could tend to him herself, convinced she’ll kill him. The maester informs him that Tyrion is no longer Hand, as Tywin has come to the city to take the position. He feels trapped, and considers who to ask for, settling finally on Pod. He trusts Pod to secure him a new maester (Frenken, the Stokeworth maester), bring him Bronn, and to say nothing of Mandon Moore.

Analysis

PART 1: The Unconscious

He must not let his father see

The chapter opens with Tyrion lying amongst the dead and dying in a basement ostensibly close to where he was injured. He realizes that he’s soiled himself, but is too weak to even groan, let alone move. The room is thick with smoke, making his eyes water: “Am I crying? He must not let his father see…A lion, I must be a lion, live a lion, die a lion.” We know that Tywin has already supplanted his son by this point, and there is an ominous tone to the way his father haunts him at deaths door. Even in his moment of weakness at the edge of life, Tyrion puts more energy into looking like a lion for his father than he does thinking about whether he’s about to die.

When he tried to speak he found he had no mouth

Tyrion is being carted back toward the city after he was discovered to be alive. He takes in the grisly scene of the war’s aftermath, and the visuals are described as though they are seen through a desaturated lens setting: grey sky, ravens flying, carrion crows eating the dead, white maggots in black corruption, grey wolves and grey silent sisters, the sun as a “hot white penny,” grey river, black smoke, white ash; colorless sigils, and black horses carting bodies.

He “walked alone amidst grey shadows, trying to remember…” what had brought him here, and thinks numbly that the men around him died at his command. He believes he can hear the dead talking to him, likely his conscience trying to make sense of why these men died at his behest. All the dead--those wearing “black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, ghostly stags”—are stripped naked and tossed together in a communal pyre, thereby negating any meaningful distinction in life, and by extension, in the battle.

Vexed by his inability to remember why he made these men die, he thinks to ask a silent sister, but realizes “he had no mouth” (it was just bandaged, but the poor guy is having a fever dream, so he’s “terrified” and tries to figure out how he could live without one). I think there’s some extra significance to this. Tyrion is rendered mute, unable to ask what these men gave their lives for. He thinks to ask a silent sister, who could not give him explanation even if she had an answer to give. He’s surrounded by dead men—who notoriously “tell no tales”—but he believes that they are speaking to him. Then he thinks, “ did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion and alive.”

This might be an unproductive connection, but rereading this I was reminded of the Direwolves and of Ghost especially. They also were living, yet brought forth amongst the dead; like Tyrion, Ghost has no voice, but his eyes are open. I don’t want to go too far down this path, but I think Ghost was the first to communicate with his mate via warg (since Jon “heard” something, yet Ghost is mute); Tyrion believes he’s communicating with the dead. I’m not suggesting Tyrion has “powers” of some kind, I just enjoy the pattern in symbolism.

There is a very sad moment in this, when Tyrion hears the dead calling for their mothers and thinks: “Tyrion had never known his mother. He wanted Shae, but she was not there.” Of course, there’s some loaded connotation regarding mother-replacement, but I found this segment quite lonely in its understatement.

Help me, someone help me

The next time he comes to, he finds himself in a bed, thinking it’s his own. He realizes that he has a fever, and between the pain and weakness, he’s completely immobilized- in fact, he can scarcely feel his body at all. Again, he tries to piece together what has happened, but his memories only come through in “fits and flashes.” Finally, he’s able to recall Mandon Moore, and this triggers a PTSD response, overwhelmed by fear, letting go of his bladder, and would have screamed “if he’d had a mouth.” He tries to tell himself that Mandon’s attempt on his life is the dream, and in a panic tries to call for loved ones: “Jaime, Shae, Mother, someone…Tysha.”

No one hears his mute appeal, but “well-wishers” do come. He thinks he dreams that Tywin, Cersei, LF and Varys are standing over him, but he can’t hear what they’re saying: “their voices buzzed in his ears like wasps.” He does, however, have some strong language toward LF, who he believes is still away at Bitterbridge. He’s slowly regaining his wits, and puts together the logic that the battle was won since he’s still alive.

Gods help me. I [still] have no mouth.

Tyrion finally gains consciousness, realizing his face is completely shrouded in hard bandages. He desperately tries to call to Pod who is standing there, who leaves and re-emerges with a maester. The maester gives him a drink and too late he realizes it’s milk of the poppy, which given the choice he’d have refused. It sends him to a round of actual dreams.

First, he imagines a victory feast, where he takes the high place and everyone in the hall cheers for him as a hero: “Even his father was smiling with approval.” Marillion plays the a song in Tyrion’s honor on the harp, and afterward, Jaime dubs Tyrion with his golden sword, and he rises a knight in Shae’s arms.

When he wakes alone and in thick darkness, he tries once again to reconstruct his memories of what happened. When his thoughts reach Mandon Moore, it terrifies him, but he “makes himself hold it.” I think there’s an amazing degree of self-control and discipline in doing this, as the thought of Moore had been enough to release his bladder in fear a few nights before. He finally realizes that Moore tried to kill him, and would have save for Pod. He tries to regain his physical faculties, but this proves less productive. He tries to shout but it’s muffled (though no longer mute). He now realizes it’s not his bed, and thinks he’s been brought here to die. Giving up, he goes back to dreaming.

Now he dreams of a “better place,” the rundown seaside cottage he shared with Tysha. He remembers it as warm despite always letting the fire go out, and Tysha’s teasing him about it. He doesn’t think to do it himself since servants always did that chore, and in the absence of servants, he tells her that he’s her servant. This leads into sex, and he wistfully recalls how much of a “wonder her body was to him, and she seemed to find delight in his.” He dreams of her singing Seasons of my love, and telling him that she loved him—all of him.

But even his joy of this memory is poisoned: “Lies, all feigned for gold, she was a whore, Jaime’s whore, Jaime’s gift, my lady of the lie. Her face seemed to fade away, dissolving behind a veil of tears.”

PART 2: Aftermath

laugh or cry?

When he finally wakes, the maester is standing over him, trying to administer more milk of the poppy, but Tyrion will have none of it. As the maester leans over, Tyrion grabs his chain and chokes him. He then demands his bandages removes through a series of gestures, and is hesitant to do so, appealing to Cersei’s wrath. This inspires new rage in Tyrion, who threatens the maester with choking using non-verbal signals.

The maester begins to cut off the cast from Tyrion’s face, and there’s a tense moment in which Tyrion realizes just how vulnerable he truly is, with the scalpel so close to his throat. As the maester washes out Tyrion’s wound, he lists all of Tyrion’s injuries and goes into detail about the treatments he used to heal him. Tyrion has little patience, and immediately wants to see the extent of damage to his face. He sits at the edge of the bed drinking wine, steeling himself for what he might see. The result leaves him wondering whether he “ought to laugh or cry.” Just that night he’d dreamed of Tysha telling him how she loved his face explicitly; all he says is an empty and sarcastic “pretty” at his deformity.

I never did Ser Mandon any harm

The full scene at the Blackwater floods back. It hits him that there had to be some reason for Mandon’s actions, and he chides himself for putting any trust at all in the KG’s honor. He assumes that Cersei must have paid Mandon to murder him: “Why else? I never did Ser Mandon any harm that I know of…Another gift from my sweet sister.” Now incredibly suspicious, Tyrion demands to know the manner in which he was brought here. The maester lets him know that it’s Cersei’s ballroom, as she wanted him “close to watch over [him] herself].”

He then learns that he’s no longer the Hand, a revelation that confuses him greatly. He’s incredulous to hear that Tywin has taken those duties and is in KL. The maester explains that Tywin, Littlefinger and Loras swooped in to defeat Stannis. Tyrion is crushed, as it’s clear that his efforts at defending the city have been trumped by the credit being given to these men for the victory. I think this is quite sad, too. Tyrion gave everything in the battle and almost lost his life; even as a survivor, the battle exacted a heavy toll on him. Sadder still is his father’s reaction to this in aSoS. Saddest of all is the fact that more than the emotions of facing death, Tyrion hated the thought displeasing his father with tears at the outset of this chapter, then dreamt happily of his father smiling at him during the imaginary honor feast.

From Sansa’s chapter, we see that the honorary “feast” was not far from the truth, but it was Tywin who received the greatest laurels. Tyrion, who put in more effort beforehand, got dirty during the battle, and was subsequently forced to see the brutal aftermath, is once again cheated by his father (who Tyrion noted would have been looking down from the rear not truly engaged in battle).

He tries to think of someone to send for to help himself regain agency. After dismissing the idea of Shae, he tries to consider whom he can trust. Varys, Bronn and Jacelyn are also discarded options and he settles for Pod, “the lad that saved my life.” He gives Pod instructions to replace this Tyrell maester with one of the Stokeworth’s, to prohibit administering Tyrion any more milk of the poppy, and to bring him Bronn. To Tyrion’s disappointment, he learns that Bronn has been made a knight. Finally, Tyrion grabs Pod and asks what became of Mandon. After ascertaining that Mandon was killed, Tyrion instructs Pod to keep silent on the matter.

He goes back to sleep, bitterly wondering if Tysha could like his face now.

[Lummel]

If we go back to the previous chapters when we were discussing the idea that Tyrion was being reborn in the smoke and salt of the battle then in this chapter he is a new born baby. He soils himself (twice). He has to be fed - with milk. He can't speak. He wants his mother. In a interesting/disturbing twist his concubine becomes a maternal figure figure for him - maybe that's why she represents safety and security for him, I think words to that effect are used a couple of times in describing his times with Shae. Then he goes through the final part of an Oedipal development - seeking and desiring his father's approval in a dream.

All of which contrasts with a reality in which Renly's ghost has beaten Stannis' army and Tywin has replaced Tyrion as Hand.

I'm wondering if there is a pattern, or a trend in the last chapters that Tyrion has in each book?

[1234567]

All the references to having a mouth but being unable to speak, along with all the grey imagery could be possible foreshadowing of his brush with Greyscale and that it might eventually develop into something more than a brush.

[Blisscraft]

Phooey! Already out of "likes" for the day. :tantrum:

Anyway, wonderful, BB! Lummel and Rapsie. I am off to reread. . .

[Ragnorak]

Nice job, Butterbumps.

Sorry Lummel, I missed the question about the glorification of war. You had mentioned the idea earlier and both in Davos and Tyrion there is a beauty in the descriptions of the banners, the fire, even the dance of death Tyrion sees in Swann and Moore. It isn't just a horror or repulsive reaction to such gruesome death. There is an awe in both characters at the imagery around them that is exacting this human toll. This chapter we see the aftermath without that beauty. It is replaced by

black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, and pale ghostly stags. Their armor was all dented and gashed, the chainmail riven, broken, slashed.

This is a pretty huge contrast to our introduction to Tyrion and Lannister destruction with Masha Heddle and "How kind of you to go to war for me, Father." There he gloated over the destruction and marveled at the bright Lannister banners while here he is in "a world without color" not even sharing half the blame for the destruction with Stannis as he did two chapters ago. His sense of responsibility and that the impact of the cost of the battle drives the reason for fighting from his head is admirably human. The dead are equal in their nakedness stripped of their House colors and sigils and burned in the same pile. The sense of Lannister superiority is gone.

This chapter really does evoke pity and sympathy. Tyrion's own circumstances are awful yet he spares thoughts for the suffering and deaths of others around him. His sense of helplessness, lack of love, vulnerability, and fear come through quite strongly. His fear of his father seeing him cry outweighing his own suffering or even death is just heartbreaking. It also drives home the impact of him not ever knowing his mother. He only recalls the previous scheming of KL because of Mandon's attempt to kill him. The result is that he becomes paranoid that the treatment to heal him is intended to kill him.

On one hand Tyrion's rejection of the pain killing milk of the poppy and his insistance at looking in the mirror (of gold and silver) are his facing the hard truths-- yet he still wants dreamwine to sleep and dream of Tysha.

There are some noteworthy anti-Lannister signs.

The sun was a hot white penny (just a penny, not the Lannister symbol of yellow gold)

“I love to say your name. Tyrion Lannister. It goes with mine. Not the Lannister, t’other part. Tyrion and Tysha.

His wits were coming back to him, however slowly. That was good. His wits were all he had.

His lack of a mouth ties in with this heavily mouth associated memory.

“You have me, I’m your servant,” and she would say, “A lazy servant. What do they do with lazy servants in Casterly Rock, my lord?” and he would tell her, “They kiss them.” That would always make her giggle. “They do not neither. They beat them, I bet,” she would say, but he would insist, “No, they kiss them, just like this.” He would show her how. “They kiss their fingers first, every one, and they kiss their wrists, yes, and inside their elbows. Then they kiss their funny ears, all our servants have funny ears. Stop laughing! And they kiss their cheeks and they kiss their noses with the little bump in them, there, so, like that, and they kiss their sweet brows and their hair and their lips, their… mmmm… mouths… so…”

“I love you, Tyrion,” she would whisper before they went to sleep at night. “I love your lips. I love your voice, and the words you say to me, and how you treat me gentle. I love your face.”

These are all things he's lost in this chapter. and how you treat me gentle... so awful knowing the truth.

What to make of two worlds without color?

Butterbumps, I also got a Stark/Nights Watch sense out of the opening of the chapter.

He found himself outside the city, walking through a world without color. Ravens soared through a grey sky on wide black wings, while carrion crows rose from their feasts in furious clouds wherever he set his steps. White maggots burrowed through black corruption. The wolves were grey, and so were the silent sisters; together they stripped the flesh from the fallen. There were corpses strewn all over the tourney fields. The sun was a hot white penny, shining down upon the grey river as it rushed around the charred bones of sunken ships. From the pyres of the dead rose black columns of smoke and white-hot ashes. My work, thought Tyrion Lannister. They died at my command.

Any paragraph with grey, white, and wolves has Stark potential. The black and the crows certainly connote the NW. I didn't hit on the mute and dead Ghost connection like you did though, but your bringing it up only made my tentative observations more curious. Not really sure what to make of the this. What makes me wonder more is this Sansa passage.

When she opened the door to the garden, it was so lovely that she held her breath, unwilling to disturb such perfect beauty. The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

Both are worlds of greys, whites, blacks, and silences. Tyrion dreams and dreams of his innocence. Sansa's whites are the cold snow and Tyrion's are a hot sun and hot ashes. My instincts feel that almost no two passages in the book could be further apart but the references are quite similar so I'm throwing it out there for thought.

[starkalways]

I think one of the biggest questions of this chapter is did ser mandon moore kill tyrion on his own or did someone order him? I think he did it on his on because cersei never thinks about trying to get tyrion killed. Little finger needed tyrion for joffrey's murder.

I cant think of anyone else capable of trying it, except varys but I dont think that works either

[Ragnorak]

I think one of the biggest questions of this chapter is did ser mandon moore kill tyrion on his own or did someone order him? I think he did it on his on because cersei never thinks about trying to get tyrion killed. Little finger needed tyrion for joffrey's murder.

I cant think of anyone else capable of trying it, except varys but I dont think that works either

Although Tyrion thinks about this here, he'll actually try harder to sort out the answer in a later chapter. LF is still a candidate because it isn't clear he worked out the entire assassination plot before leaving for the Tyrells. He may not have even considered the idea at all until he weighed the Tyrell response. We also see how LF made himself absent from KL for the wedding so if he were behind this attempt on Tyrion that would be consistent with his "clean hands" philosophy. Later we'll see that Oberyn reflects that he could just as easily have been in Tyrion's shoes after the poisoning. So I don't think Tyrion was a required element in LF's Purple Wedding plan, just the most desirable and convenient one. Our LF is a resourceful man and can always find someone to frame at need. That Tyrion believes it was Cersei seems to be the most important point on the matter here in this chapter. We should probably try and figure out who was behind it when Tyrion does the same later unless you see clues that hint at a suspect in the text now.

[Ludd]

Even if the Tyrion schemes were uncovered he could (quite correctly) claim he was trying to determine id they were spies for Stannis or Renley or Dorme or the Vale

It was a clever ploy (still used in government by the way) to find leakers

[Lummel]

OK, I see what you mean Ragnorak about the glorification of war. I read that more as Tyrion's love of the experience. In any case it's a contrast with the burning and the gruesome injuries.

The absence of a colour palate does link the Sansa and the Tyrion scenes. But like you say they are also opposites. One is constructive and creative the other the consequences of destruction. There is an odd link with the last Bran chapter in ACOK - Bran emerging from the ruins of Winterfell but seeing the potential for rebuilding.

There are two stories of destruction and renewal in ASOIAF. One is about the natural world with the big cycle of long seasons seeing the slow death of the world in autumn and it's eventual rebirth in the spring (well at least that is what normally happens in my experience) the second is a political fable of destruction and renewal which is the natural flow of the game of thrones. Dunno.

At the same time this is presumably what Tyrion saw (when precisely? How does he get from the ships to the shore? If Pod dragged him back then why was he lost among the wounded?) and what's interesting is that he perceives the world drained of colour. It's become sharp, stark and absolute. Or is it just a dream? In which case is this prophetic or the voice of the unconscious?

[Blisscraft]

The absence of color in this chapter reminds me of some perverse "The Wizard of Oz" homage. I'm thinking of the 1939 film with Judy Garland which begins in "black and white" and once she passes "over the rainbow" courtesy of a very scary tornado, she finds herself in the land of Oz in full blown color. Later she discovers that her "trip" to Oz was only a dream.

Poor Tyrion's dreams are in "black and white," (Dorothy's dream of Oz is color as opposed to her "real" world of black and white). There is something about the idea of monochromatic shades running the gamut between pure black and white within the dream that feed into a sense that there is a lack of purity, pure color, or something definitive, something only black and/or white, like Ser Balon Swann's sigil: Two swans fighting one black, one white. (A yin/yang symbol). This is another one of those themes throughout the series.

I really like the birth analogy, Lummel. Wonderful! BB! love the connections between the silent sisters and Tryion's lack of mouth. It must be torture for Tyrion because he relies upon his mouth so much, constantly getting himself in trouble with it. He acknowleges he has a "big mouth," says too much, too often and with Tysha he's the "bad servant" who can't keep keep the fires lit whose punishment is receiving kisses.

A couple of other things - Pod is amazing. Tyrion realizes it. It's too bad Pod doesn't. Also, Payne seems to be Tyrion's only friend (as Payne becomes Jaime's "friend" later).

Littlefinger - Mandon Moore, great white knight with the dead eyes, now deceased was from the Vale. Jon Arryn brought Moore the KL. Could there be a connection between Moore to LF beyond the Vale? Also, I'd forgotten that LF comes with the conquering Lannister army to liberate KL from Stannis. Great timing for him, especially since no one had heard from him at all after Tryion sent him off to treat with the Tyrells before Stannis' attack. If it looks like a duck . . .

[butterbumps!]

When it comes down to it, the battle renders Tyrion merely a disembodied eye. He is just a lens. He has temporarily lost control of his faculties, all of his physical senses, and his ability to analyze or form perceptions on what he's observed. All he has is sight. He's unable to formulate coherent thoughts, which seems largely tied to his inability to physically articulate anything.

And as he's a disembodied eye, I found the smoke that gets in his eyes and produced tears a really compelling symbol. When smoke gets in your eyes, you cry as an automatic cleansing response. It's an unconscious process of catharsis, yet Tyrion denies himself even this cleansing out of a kind of duty to his father-- the very person who Tyrion needs to wash from himself.

Tyrion, though often a keen observer, rarely drinks in a scene without any personal projections on his observations. Even later in the chapter, when he asks for the mirror to see his wounds, Tyrion immediately reacts to what he sees. Tyrion is good at looking, assessing his surroundings and accepting what he sees, but in the beginning of this chapter something more is happening. Perhaps for the first time, Tyrion is seeing; unable to comment or otherwise react to his environment, Tyrion is forced to meditate on-- rather than analyze and project onto-- what he's seeing.

The pieces he's seeing have quite literally lost their societal definitions-- no colors, no qualifiers, only the sameness in devastation. These pieces no longer have applied meanings in the way he's seeing them. Their societal essences are stripped, which allows Tyrion to see a different sort of essence during something of an existential crisis. It's significant that he knows these men fought "because of him," really sees the devastation, and cannot piece together the why.

My feelings toward Tyrion tend to swing more than for most of the other characters, largely because much of what I find distasteful stems from what he does (competently) in service to a bad cause (his family's advancement). At least for me, I'm torn between thinking he could be an otherwise decent guy (about most things), which pulls at my sympathies, but then the overall framework of his operations kind of rots his soul.

This is part of why the dream sequence aspect of this chapter fascinates me. There's almost a blank slate being set forth as a kind of turning point. He cannot figure out why there was even a war in the first place. It almost sets up for a rejection of his unworthy cause (as well as giving the readers a close look at the horrors of war, and a rejection of war more completely). He's unable to make the connection between his Lannister ties and the devastation before him; they are two very different thoughts. He sees the aftermath, instinctively thinks about what his father would say about his condition (the crying), and wonders "what this was for," but can't put together the causal logic.

The next layer of this "blank slate" potential is the fact that we know Tywin has already supplanted him, that there would be no glory for Tyrion, that it didn't even matter if he lived or died. He was left for dead literally and figuratively; his use to his father was done. Knowing this from the reader's perspective, at least I thought it could finally be an incentive to break out of his self-imposed Lannister prison; further, I wanted to break the 4th wall and tell Tyrion he really ought to not give a shit about what his father would think of his tearing up or overall performance, since it is abundantly clear Tywin doesn't give much of a shit about him.

I think there's a lot more to analyze from this to the chapter "hinge" point where he wakes and reacts to the news of his father's presence and assumption of the Hand position, but I'll leave it here for now.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hmmm, so Tyrion was "born" amidst smoke and salt under a bleeding star . . . .