Arya / No One / and the Water Motif in Braavos

[Little Wing]

Okay, found a story similar to the selkie lore, only this one is with a She-Wolf :)

This is a Croatian story that is almost identical to the Celtic story "The Goodman O' Wastness". The difference is that while that tale is of the Selkie, this one involves a wolf.

THE SHE-WOLF

THERE was an enchanted mill, so that no one could stay there, because a she-wolf always haunted it. A soldier went once into the mill to sleep. He made a fire in the parlor, went up into the garret above, bored a hole with an auger in the floor, and peeped down into the parlor. A she-wolf came in and looked about the mill to see whether she could find anything to eat. She found nothing, and then went to the fire, and said: 'Skin down! skin down! skin down!' She raised herself upon her hind-legs, and her skin fell down. She took the skin, and hung it on a peg, and out of the wolf came a damsel. The damsel went to the fire, and fell asleep there. He came down from the garret, took the skin, nailed it fast to the mill-wheel, then came into the mill, shouted over her, and said: 'Good-morning, damsel! how do you do?' She began to scream: 'Skin on me! skin on me! skin on me!' But the skin could not come down, for it was fast nailed. The pair married, and had two children. As soon as the elder son got to know that his mother was a wolf, he said to her: 'Mamma! mamma! I have heard that you are a wolf.' His mother replied: 'What nonsense you are talking! How can you say that I am a wolf?' The father of the two children went one day into the field to plough, and his son said: 'Papa, let me, too, go with you.' His father said: 'Come.' When they had come to the field, the son asked his father: 'Papa, is it true that our mother is a wolf?' His father said: 'It is.' The son inquired: 'And where is her skin?' His father said: 'There it is, on the mill-wheel.' No sooner had the son got home, than he said at once to his mother: 'Mamma! mamma! you are a wolf! I know where your skin is.' His mother asked him: 'Where is my skin?' He said: 'There, on the mill-wheel.' His mother said to him: 'Thank you, sonny, for rescuing me.' Then she went away, and was never heard of more.

[ARYa_Nym]

1. This is from evita's animal thread but in AGoT Arya mentioned Tommen looking like a turtle.

In ADWD turtles can be connected with the Rhoyne so there's another link to Nymeria.

Yandry swore the Rhoynar princes used to ride them across the river. He and his wife were Greenblood born, a pair of Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne.

2. I later thought of another link b/w Nina from Black Swan and their instructors.

Nina and Vincent's character kiss. This is after her audition. She bit him and that made him think that she could maybe have something that he could work with in order to have her pull off Odile's part.

When Arya meets the KM he asks her give him a kiss. This is also a test.

Nina fights in order to pass. Arya welcomes it and passes.




3. In another thread there was a comparison of Arya and Aegon's sisters. I think she has aspects of both.


Visenya-passionate, unforgiving, sorcery connections, and fighting with a sword.

Rhaenys-mischievious, curious, physique...


Differences: Visenya-Figure, Isn't stern and sensual, isn't as nurturing as Visenya was with the Vale Boy.

Rhaenys: Is no longer playful, Has no interest in music and poetry, does not surround herself with handsome men.

For both Arya differs with hair management.

Visenya is a year or two older than Aegon, Rhaenys a year or two younger. They share his silver-gold hair, but theirs is worn long. Visenya often braided her hair or bound it up in rings, while Rhaenys wore hers loose and flowing.

To the subject at hand Rhaenys had a dream to cross the Sunset Sea. Arya mentioned Old Nan's stories about stowaways who crossed the sea and had adventures so there's a parallel there with adventure and the sea.

Visenya was warrior, tough, rumored to practice magic. Rhaenys, youngest, was everything her sister wasn’t (soft, classically beautiful) - but spent more time w/ dragons and wanted to cross Sunset Sea before she died. Rumored to have lovers, but Aegon spent 10 times more w/ her.

EDIT: I no longer think she is that similar to Aegon's sisters although she does have a couple of things in common.

4. I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier but on the KM and offering her alternatives he mentioned her marrying aseafarer:

"Or if it is marriage and children you desire, tell me, and we shall find a husband for you. Some honest apprentice boy, a rich old man, aseafarer, whatever you desire.”She wanted none of that. Wordless, she shook her head."

He also said that a small life would be better for her. A life like Cat of the Canals where she is basically a fishwife.

“You were a cat, they tell me. Prowling through the alleys smelling of fish, selling cockles and mussels for coin. A small life, well suited for a small creature such as you. Ask, and it can be restore to you. Push your barrow, cry your cockles, be content. Your heart is too soft to be one of us.” He means to send me away.

Arya rejects this offer though.

As Cat she mainly hangs out with those with a water association.

"She missed the friends she'd had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum."

I mentioned how she prefers the harbor which is another link to Queen Nymeria because there was a harbor in her city called Ny Sar.

From the wiki:

The Rhoynar impact on the gene pool of Dorne is strongest along the coasts, and up the river valleys into the central deserts, where the people have the dark olive skin and long black hair of their Rhoynar ancestors. However, the impact was least in the isolated Red Mountains of western Dorne, where hardly any Rhoynar settled, and the inhabitants resemble blonde-haired Andals. A small group of Rhoynar, however, refused to assimilate with the local inhabitants or culture at all. A small, gypsy-like culture of river-folk moving up and down the major rivers of Dorne such as the Greenblood, these "Orphans of the Greenblood" are closest to the original ethnicity, culture, and religious practices of the original Rhoynar.

The Dornish with strong Rhoynar links are a culture that seems to be on the move. Queen Nymeria had to move her people. Arya is always on the move except for recently when she stays in an area surrounded by water-Braaos.

Again as was discussed a good portion of her travelogue happens along rivers with a big river as its focus. Queen Nymeria had the Rhoyne as her gathering base. Arya had the Trident as her map home and Nymeria also had the Trident as a base for her pack.

5. Arya mentions the prostitutes and there's a water connection.

Some of the dockside whores were vicious, and sailors fresh from the sea never knew which ones. S’vrone was the worst. Everyone said she had robbed and killed a dozen men, rolling the bodies into the canals to feed the eels. The Drunken Daughter could be sweet when sober, but not with wine in her.

6. Lastly, it was mentioned earlier how water is a force that can be associated with destruction like say floods and something that gives life like humans needing it in order to sustain themselves.

The KM speaks to her of giving life and death:

“It may be that the Many-Faced God has led you here to be His instrument, but when I look at you I see a child . . . and worse, a girl child. Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both.”

In order to be a FM she has to choose only one path. The path of death. She can't be a force of life and death. There is only one. So she would have to give up her ability to create life.

Unrelated but thinking on that Rumi quote more it also speaks to how with the FM she will have to assume the role of new characters and pretend to be others so there is a need to get to know her again like the Moon. For the Swan Lake link Siegfried had been confused/tricked by Odile because she was in the role of pretending to be his love. Arya pretends to be others as a FM and like Odette she also has a girl who was a rival for her that is pretending to be her atm.

[evita mgfs]

1. This is from evita's animal thread but in AGoT Arya mentioned Tommen looking like a turtle.

In ADWD turtles can be connected with the Rhoyne so there's another link to Nymeria.

2. I later thought of another link b/w Nina from Black Swan and their instructors.

Nina and Vincent's character kiss. This is after her audition. She bit him and that made him think that she could maybe have something that he could work with in order to have her pull off Odile's part.

When Arya meets the KM he asks her give him a kiss. This is also a test.

Nina fights in order to pass. Arya welcomes it and passes.

3. In another thread there was a comparison of Arya and Aegon's sisters. I think she has aspects of both.

Visenya-passionate, unforgiving, sorcery connections, and fighting with a sword.

Rhaenys-mischievious, curious, physique...

Differences: Visenya-Figure, Isn't stern and sensual, isn't as nurturing as Visenya was with the Vale Boy.

Rhaenys: Is no longer playful, Has no interest in music and poetry, does not surround herself with handsome men.

For both Arya differs with hair management.

To the subject at hand Rhaenys had a dream to cross the Sunset Sea. Arya mentioned Old Nan's stories about stowaways who crossed the sea and had adventures so there's a parallel there with adventure and the sea.

4. I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier but on the KM and offering her alternatives he mentioned her marrying aseafarer:

He also said that a small life would be better for her. A life like Cat of the Canals where she is basically a fishwife.

Arya rejects this offer though.

As Cat she mainly hangs out with those with a water association.

I mentioned how she prefers the harbor which is another link to Queen Nymeria because there was a harbor in her city called Ny Sar.

From the wiki:

The Dornish with strong Rhoynar links are a culture that seems to be on the move. Queen Nymeria had to move her people. Arya is always on the move except for recently when she stays in an area surrounded by water-Braaos.

Again as was discussed a good portion of her travelogue happens along rivers with a big river as its focus. Queen Nymeria had the Rhoyne as her gathering base. Arya had the Trident as her map home and Nymeria also had the Trident as a base for her pack.

5. Arya mentions the prostitutes and there's a water connection.

6. Lastly, it was mentioned earlier how water is a force that can be associated with destruction like say floods and something that gives life like humans needing it in order to sustain themselves.

The KM speaks to her of giving life and death:

In order to be a FM she has to choose only one path. The path of death. She can't be a force of life and death. There is only one. So she would have to give up her ability to create life.

Unrelated but thinking on that Rumi quote more it also speaks to how with the FM she will have to assume the role of new characters and pretend to be others so there is a need to get to know her again like the Moon. For the Swan Lake link Siegfried had been confused/tricked by Odile because she was in the role of pretending to be his love. Arya pretends to be others as a FM and like Odette she also has a girl who was a rival for her that is pretending to be her atm.

:bowdown: :bowdown: ARYA NYM: AWESOME POST! WOW! It will take me a while to digest all the great observations you have made, and then I will attempt to respond with something not-so brilliant, but I will try!

Our friend The Pack Survives has left westeros.org, and she was my co-conspirator in the direwolf reread thread. I am very sad. :crying: But she has a wonderful web site of her own which she devotes to ASoI&F.

I promise I will post more, but I pulled an all-nighter to catchup the direwolf thread with The Pack leaving so suddenly. So give me some time.

And with the reread, I noticed just how much Arya and Nymeria are associated with mud - and even the Trident early on, but we may have already mentioned the "mud" association and Nymeria and Arya running along the Trident - and of course, she throws Lion's Tooth into the Trident! [i am sure you covered these points, though, if my memory serves me right!]

[Little Wing]

I wonder if these parallels with water and mud (fertility) foreshadow her, you know, one day being a mum, as impossible as it seems... it would certainly be a twist, but wolves are pack animals... ^_^

Also, talking about packs - Evita, could you share The Pack Survives website with us/PM us the site? Thanks! :)

[redriver]

Do you have a link to Pack's website Evita?

[ARYa_Nym]

On mud Lilith was made of mud.

Interesting note that Lilith is the goddess of the black moon in Greece. We've discussed that Faceless could be a play on Phaseless. Arya returns to the HoB&W during this time.

But there are other versions of Lilith. For example, in Greece Lilith is the goddess of the black moon (Artemis is the goddess of the full moon and Hecate is goddess of the crescent moon). In Greece she was also revered as a fertility goddess, helping to conceive children and grow crops.

The astronomical new moon, sometimes known as the dark moon to avoid confusion, occurs by definition at the moment of conjunction in ecliptical longitude with the Sun, when the Moon is invisible from the Earth.

But not all the legends about her are good. Judeo-Christianity has replaced the old mythology with a new mythology: Lilith as succubus.

No longer is she a goddess, but instead an immortal succubus, the mother of all succubi, a stealer of children and a seductress of men.

http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/the_demonification_of_lilith.html

In the destiny thread Arya was compared to Lilith.

The Sumerian version bears no children.

Lilith's epithet was "the beautiful maiden". She was described as having no milk in her breasts and was unable to bear any children.^[5][6] Babylonian texts depict Lilith as the prostitute of the goddess Ishtar.

Unlike Lilith Arya has not taken to stealing children but rather she herself gets stolen a few times.

:bowdown: :bowdown: ARYA NYM: AWESOME POST! WOW! It will take me a while to digest all the great observations you have made, and then I will attempt to respond with something not-so brilliant, but I will try!

Our friend The Pack Survives has left westeros.org, and she was my co-conspirator in the direwolf reread thread. I am very sad. :crying: But she has a wonderful web site of her own which she devotes to ASoI&F.

I promise I will post more, but I pulled an all-nighter to catchup the direwolf thread with The Pack leaving so suddenly. So give me some time.

And with the reread, I noticed just how much Arya and Nymeria are associated with mud - and even the Trident early on, but we may have already mentioned the "mud" association and Nymeria and Arya running along the Trident - and of course, she throws Lion's Tooth into the Trident! [i am sure you covered these points, though, if my memory serves me right!]

I'm sad to hear that. I liked her. :(

It's fine. Take your time.

[evita mgfs]

I wonder if these parallels with water and mud (fertility) foreshadow her, you know, one day being a mum, as impossible as it seems... it would certainly be a twist, but wolves are pack animals... ^_^

Also, talking about packs - Evita, could you share The Pack Survives website with us/PM us the site? Thanks! :)

Do you have a link to Pack's website Evita?

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING AND REDRIVER: I am happy to share The Pack Survives’ Tumblr link, and I am sure she will be delighted and tickled to hear from you both – and since the site is entitled THE WOLVES WILL COME AGAIN, it is sincerely devoted to ASoI&F. [The Pack likes to warn that her site is not spoiler free!]

She blogs beautiful image collages from AGoT, HBO series; she answers questions and leads discussions; and she keeps her site pristine, on point, and up-to-date. She has so much to share with westeros.org with her insightful postings, and I hope that with a little time, she may decide to return.

Also, since her web address is on her profile page, I am sure she will not mind if I post it here for you: http://morsmordre-x.tumblr.com/

The Pack is a wonderful, kind person who is an avid Martin fan who loves to share her ideas.

I wish to thank all of you for expressing your concern for her. On her Tumblr site, there is an icon designating either “Ask a Question” or “Message”, depending on if you have a Tumblr account of your own. Click on this, and instructions will guide you in sending a communication. :grouphug: :love:

[ARYa_Nym]

I have to amend my list of comparisons to Queen Nymeria since I keep finding more things to add on.

I wonder how far the parallels in their stories will go. I think Arya's associations with water exemplifies the similarities in their journeys as well as the with the wolf Nymeria.

Oh, and as water for a destructive force we've brought up earlier how the Rhoynish god the Mother Rhoyne was that kind of weapon for Garin the Great who like Nymeria was in conflict with Valyria.

[Alia of the knife]

Okay, since there has been a lot of talk about Arya, here is a thread with a lot of great information in terms of symbolism and her various connections to water, the moon, and Nymeria.

Thanks to Evita, who sadly doesn't come here anymore, as well as many other thoughtful people.

[William MK Stark]

When the Winter comes, what does water become ?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

When the Winter comes, what does water become ?

Thanks for bumping this thread! :cheers: It would wonderful if this discussion could be revived somehow. There were many wonderful previous posts, but it seems futile to respond since many of the participants may not be active here anymore. I really want to talk more about Arya, but all of her threads lately have been about her endgame. I'd rather talk about where she's been, where she is now, and what it all means.

I've been thinking a lot about Arya's connection to her maternal House lately. There's so much said about her wolf nature, but most readers forget that she's half fish, too... and I've wondered how and where her Tully side comes out.

One representative post among many good ones:

I like this thread and line of thinking.

To me Arya is "like water" in many ways.

- She wants to be free, unrestrained and runs wherever she pleases,

- She is changeable as water (change "shapes" (Arry, Nen...) to avoid being found) but fundamentally still the same,

- She is capable of accepting new things she learns and adapting her world view,

- Like water she finds even the smallest cracks and the ways to escapes.

- Twice she escapes death / prison by going down and toward water (KL and fire after saving prisoners from the cage),

- There are many (already listed) examples of Arya and water too.

And this is pure speculation but I think she's (and Jon) connected with belief in Drowned God.

Jon "dies" but (Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born) will rises "harder and stronger".

Arya may have already (metaphorically) "died. And it's sure that she is already "harder and stronger".

But it may also be that the "cold cup" (cup is another water symbol) holds some kind of poison that will make her die and "rises again, harder and stronger".

I like this theory because if it was true it would ensure Arya and Jon will live at the end.

Both will be "dead" and thus they "may never die".

And I think it's possible Arya will warg a sea animal.

Wolves are very much a Stark symbol in the books. And if there are skinchangers that warg sea animals why wouldn't Arya or Bran be able to do it?

Bran is away from the sea but Arya is not.

I think it's pretty significant that Arya spends so much time wandering around, being held captive, and ultimately fleeing from the Riverlands. By this point, she's walked all over the realm that her mother's family ruled until recently (and may come to rule again -- go, Blackfish!). She leaves from Saltpans, crosses the Narrow Sea, and has been in Braavos, a Free City that is intimately connected to the sea, ever since.

I also love the conversations upthread from a few years ago about Arya's name for her direwolf and those connections to water. Queen Nymeria was a daughter of the Rhoyne (a river system), who undertook an epic sea voyage before landing in Dorne.

Anyway, I'd be glad to help revive this conversation, and am now following this thread.