Sandy - Update Reports from Boarders and News Developments

[naz]

I thought that this thread might be a good place to continue the Sandy discussion, in terms of what can/should/will be done to avoid this kind of catastrophe in the future, not just for New York City, but other coastal urban centers as well.

A few days after the hurricane, when people started talking about building sea walls and stuff, the New York Times published an article addressing the opinion that we should instead (or additionally) be focusing on preventative measures such as dealing with global warming (long term) or changing building codes to move boilers and equipment out of basements, etc. (shorter term). There's also mention of "managed retreat" strategies, which are essentially acknowledging that low-lying areas will flood and that we should "cede them back to the sea".

The article also highlights designs to protect the NYC coastline that go beyond simple seawall construction. A couple of years ago, the Museum of Modern Art actually had an exhibition titled "Rising Currents" which highlighted architectural and engineering designs that deal with this actual problem. Seems very prescient in hindsight.

Then there's this article in Slate by Bjørn Lomborg that seems to address only the cost-benefit approach, which I find pretty short-sighted and stupid, but you can judge for yourself.

What do you think? One option is to keep waiting for more Sandy's to happen and keep spending tens of billions each time to fix and repair, but I don't think anyone is really advocating we do nothing. But whether we build seawalls or coastal wetlands in Battery Park or we engage in "managed retreat" or we bury overhead wires or we address climate change in the long term, the road ahead is unclear and contentious.

eta: If the mods think this should be a new thread, or that this thread should be re-titled, I'm cool with that, too.

[Arataniello]

IF building is to continue up and down the East Coast so close to the shoreline, then building codes in all coastal states need to be vastly increased. I live in a hurricane-frequented part of the world, and it beggars belief that houses in the US seem to be build of plasterboard and paper.

The story of the three little pigs comes to mind every summer when I see hurricane damage pictures on the TV.

[Elba the Intoner]

IF building is to continue up and down the East Coast so close to the shoreline, then building codes in all coastal states need to be vastly increased. I live in a hurricane-frequented part of the world, and it beggars belief that houses in the US seem to be build of plasterboard and paper.

The story of the three little pigs comes to mind every summer when I see hurricane damage pictures on the TV.

Well, in all fairness to building codes, I think most of the damage caused by Sandy (and Katrina for that matter) was due to water damage from heavy flooding more so than wind damage. Then, in Breezy Point there was a huge fire sparked by some electrical problem that because of the wind went out of control. No building is going to be able to withstand heavy flooding or fire. Even the Boardwalks on the Jersey Shore that were damaged suffered more because of the water, as there was a powerful storm surge. I think it's more an issue of location - just how close to the water should we be building?

[naz]

IF building is to continue up and down the East Coast so close to the shoreline, then building codes in all coastal states need to be vastly increased. I live in a hurricane-frequented part of the world, and it beggars belief that houses in the US seem to be build of plasterboard and paper.

After Hurricane Andrew hit Florida in 1992 and strong winds caused extensive damage to buildings, the buildings codes DID change, mostly to accommodate high wind velocity, wind shear, and allowance for wind-borne debris. The problem is that the next storm will have weaker winds, but a higher storm surge. The next storm will have intense rainfall. The next storm will have weak winds, but extensive old-growth trees with leaves still on them. The next storm will have something else entirely.

And since our building codes and other emergency procedures tend to be reactive rather than proactive, we learn from mistakes and make changes. But we can't predict everything or prepare for everything. There are already stringent requirements in NJ, for example, for locating electrical or emergency equipment in the flood plain - it's simply not allowed. NYC, because of its unique history and configuration, has a different building code entirely, which is more stringent in some ways and less stringent in others. Even so, things would've been much worse this time if Hurricane Irene or the freak October ice storm hadn't happened last year.

Anyway, it's not as simple as saying that the problem is "paper and plasterboard" houses. This itself is a fallacy, but I understand your point. But keep in mind that stick-built houses, while more susceptible to water, wind, and fire, are also easier to repair when damage does occur. A hundred year old oak tree falling on a house is going to damage it whether it's made of wood or concrete, but with wood, it can get back to normal relatively quickly and cheaply. And the house itself will be built more quickly and cheaply, and there's a massive economic advantage to that which most people don't consider. What I mean is that if you quantified the damage to houses in a particular storm strictly occurring because the construction was stick-built rather than concrete or masonry, then this number would be completely outweighed by the cost increase to make ALL homes out of concrete or masonry.

I know this flies in the face of my criticism of Lomborg's strict cost-benefit argument, but in this case, it's true... people are simply not going to start making houses out of concrete in these places at a scale large enough to make a difference in storm damage.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Naz, why can't we do almost all of those things? Almost my entire area used to be coastal wetlands and I think all of those owners should be offered a buyout so as much of it can be returned to nature as possible. I'm not sure how much burying utility wires would help in a place like Staten Island though. Same goes for changing building codes to mandate putting boiliers and electrical equipment out of basements seeing as the water was nine feet in my house and that was a mile from the beach, some places it was closer to fifteen. I can't see how elevating things like that would help. And I agree that measures to prevent further climate change need to be implemented right away. And I think the idea of seawalls should be studied and built if possible.

[naz]

Naz, why can't we do almost all of those things?

Short answer? Money.

I'm not sure how much burying utility wires would help in a place like Staten Island though.

Not in Staten Island so much, where the damage was mostly due to flooding. But further inland, a lot of damage was done to power lines and poles and so people were without power for 7-12 days. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a lot compared what people like you went through, but it was widespread. Can you imagine what else the power companies could've been doing if they didn't have to repair thousands of poles, wires, and transformers all across the region?

Same goes for changing building codes to mandate putting boiliers and electrical equipment out of basements seeing as the water was nine feet in my house and that was a mile from the beach, some places it was closer to fifteen. I can't see how elevating things like that would help.

Keep in mind that the 500 yr flood plain is based on the base flood elevation (BFE), which is around 10' above mean sea level. That could be 5 ft from the shore or a mile from the shore... it depends on how flat the area is. But you're right... storm surges have the potential to go higher than BFE, but regular flooding due to heavy rain generally does not. But that's not the only issue. The water gets that high because there's nowhere else for it go, usually because the land is overdeveloped and covered with non-porous material. If you leave plenty of porous surface, stormwatr can percolate into the ground and find its way to natural aquifers. But if the ground is saturated or there's too much non-porous ground cover, FEMA requires you to build large underground storage tanks that hold the stormwater that the property would otherwise be shedding. These requirements have recently been increased because of events like Sandy. They're realizing that their earlier standards weren't enough. But you can't go and install new tanks for all the old properties; you can only require it of new developments. So, despite new standards, bad things still happen.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Hope your family is faring well. Good luck with the inspector. :)

Found out my bro was helping on Kissel ave (sp?). Is that anywhere near you? The house is not condemned, but needs a lot of work to be put right. So my brother's friend and wife are staying with her mom, and they're doing cleanup whenever they can.

I know Kissel Ave. I went to high school three or four blocks from there. I didn't realize they flooded up there. I went back to my house today for a bit while my father was waiting for inspectors from the city and got a real sense of how bad the house is damaged. The ceiling is coming down in what used to be our family room, the dry bar is upside down, the walls are warped and in addition to ocean water we had sewage, lots of it. According to the inspector there is a good chance we'll get paid the maximum amount we're entitled too by our insurance company.

[the maid of woodlynne]

I know Kissel Ave. I went to high school three or four blocks from there. I didn't realize they flooded up there. I went back to my house today for a bit while my father was waiting for inspectors from the city and got a real sense of how bad the house is damaged. The ceiling is coming down in what used to be our family room, the dry bar is upside down, the walls are warped and in addition to ocean water we had sewage, lots of it. According to the inspector there is a good chance we'll get paid the maximum amount we're entitled too by our insurance company.

They had 6ft of water, but I think the houses on the other side of the park were ok. My brother said the basement looked like the trash compactor from Star Wars. But it is nothing compared to what your house went through.

Good luck with the insurance company. Are you guys going to be able to repair or rebuild? Sending good thoughts your way.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

They had 6ft of water, but I think the houses on the other side of the park were ok. My brother said the basement looked like the trash compactor from Star Wars. But it is nothing compared to what your house went through.

Good luck with the insurance company. Are you guys going to be able to repair or rebuild? Sending good thoughts your way.

I'll bet it did. I hope his friend and wife are ok. My father said he isn't sure we're ever going to live there again.

[Gillio]

I'll bet it did. I hope his friend and wife are ok. My father said he isn't sure we're ever going to live there again.

:grouphug: for your dad, my thought are with you guys. I feel so helpless being so far away.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

:grouphug: for your dad, my thought are with you guys. I feel so helpless being so far away.

My father and I will be ok but I'm damn my sister has ptsd.

[the maid of woodlynne]

My father and I will be ok but I'm damn my sister has ptsd.

Hope it gets better for her with time. :grouphug: Wishing you guys all the best as you piece things back together.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Hope it gets better for her with time. :grouphug: Wishing you guys all the best as you piece things back together.

She's having a lot of trouble sleeping. Thank you so much, you and everyone else here has been very supportive and I appreciate it.

[Xray the Enforcer]

:grouphug: you might want to look into counseling for her, so she can start to process what happened and hopefully lessen the long-term impact. Good luck to your whole family.

[Elder Sister]

Philip - I'm so sorry that you and your family are having such a tough time. I'm praying for your sister and you and your family. Hang in there...

:grouphug:

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

:grouphug: you might want to look into counseling for her, so she can start to process what happened and hopefully lessen the long-term impact. Good luck to your whole family.

I've brought the topic up. He company was awesome enough to give her an extra 20 paid days off so she'll have plenty of time to spend on herself so she can get herself back in a good place. Thank you very much.

Philip - I'm so sorry that you and your family are having such a tough time. I'm praying for your sister and you and your family. Hang in there...

:grouphug:

Thank you very much Sis. There are families that are having it way worse than us. We'll be okay. We're too stubborn to let a natural disaster get to us.

[Fragile Bird]

Let me add my best wishes for you and your family A-MP. I hope everything gets sorted out for the best with the insurance company, and most of all, that your sister gets through this. :grouphug:

I just wanted to add that one of the problems worsening the flooding is the fact the ocean is getting warmer. Just a fraction, of course, but water molecules expand with warmth, meaning flooding will keep getting worse, and the oceans are getting warmer every year. I understand that even if we did everything possible tomorrow, the warming would continue for another 50 years or so before things started to turn round.

[Elba the Intoner]

I want to wish everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving! I hope everyone has a warm comfy place to celebrate with people you all love.

[Whitestripe]

Things seem pretty much back to normal from our visit to the Freehold/Hazlet/Holmdel area pc NJ. We Did see an awful lot of trees down and my in-laws are "negotiating" with their neighbors on who has to remove an enormous tree from their wooded back yard.

[naz]

In yesterday's New York Times: "After Storm, Dry Floors Prove Value of Exceeding City Code"

What does not seem to be getting consideration, at least for now, is banning development altogether in the city’s flood zones, humble or affluent.

“This is not a viable policy option in New York City, and to be honest, nor is it in any other major coastal city I’ve been working,” said Jeroen Aerts, a water risk expert from the Free University in Amsterdam who has been hired by the mayor’s office to assess flood protections. “The stakes of developers and general economic activities in the waterfront are too high.”

In Mr. Aerts’s view, the most realistic options for New York are to build levees and surge barriers, and elevate and floodproof buildings.

Ms. Quinn, a likely candidate for mayor when Mr. Bloomberg’s term expires at the end of 2013, said changes in the building code were a far higher priority than rethinking zoning rules. But she said that nothing was off the table.

“I don’t think there’s anything that’s taboo to discuss at this point,” she said.