Robb & Theon

[Frey Pie]

He was his "best" friend not by choice, but a relationship forced by Theon being a hostage. A fact the Robb refused to acknowledge, even after his mother plead with him not to send Theon to treat with Balon.

I think the fact that Theon wishes he had died at Robbs side atests to the fact that their relationship was real, hostage or not. Theon was brought up as a Stark

[Bear Island Bruiser]

It's a really good relationship in that Robb basically seems to have thought of Theon as a brother. Robb would have grown up always knowing Theon as being there and looking up to him in a similar way to an elder brother. Theon seems to also think of Robb as a brother but at every turn Robb is also a constant reminder of Theon's situation. If you play out the scenario Theon is the older 'brother' but Robb is the one being groomed to rule, truly reflecting that Theon is a 'brother' but also an outsider. Equally when you pull Jon Snow into the equation it's also interesting. Theon obviously has a pretty rough relationship with him, partly as Jon is so serious, but I also see it as an attempt to put him down as he Robb's only 'brother' that's close to them in age. Bran and Rickon being too young to be considered. So Theon is resentful of Jon interloping into his relationship.

Equally you have to remember Theon's whole family was shattered at a very yound age and so he's looking round for some kind of connection. Very much a tragic figure in the books.

[David Selig]

What I found really interesting about their relationship, after the second read of the series, is how much of a big brother Theon is to Robb. Robb is so young for such adventures: a teenage boy. Theon laughs with Robb about all his exploits and talks about glory and battle, and Robb certainly enjoys his company throughout. He seems to respect Theon's impulsiveness and bravery. (Remember how Theon eggs on Robb to go to war over his father's shattered leg; how he acts fast at high risk to save Bran where Robb couldn't).

This is not the impression I got. For one thing, Robb was quite angry at Theon for shooting the guy who was holding Bran hostage and blamed Theon for being reckless.

During teenage years as a boy, especially considering the post-medieval setting of ASoIaF, it's crucial to explore not only the boundaries of socially norms/rules and to challenge authority figures, but there's also learning about sex and how to act around both women and your peers.

I thought Theon played this role exceptionally and it was some great writing by George Martin.

Theon is not exactly a positive example to follow regarding treatment of women. Besides, Robb's problems in this area were of completely different nature than Theon - Theon is selfish and callous, Robb - too chivalrious and forgetting everything else in Jeyne Westering's case.

[mrlukeduke]

Robb was quite angry at Theon for shooting the guy who was holding Bran hostage and blamed Theon for being reckless.

Theon is not exactly a positive example to follow regarding treatment of women.

Agreed, yet nonetheless when we get Bran's pov it's said that Robb either admires Theon or enjoys his company.

While Robb's understandably angry in the moment at Theon, after he saves Bran, he still saves him. I think there's tension there for Robb because he acts both very boldly and very rashly.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Theon is not exactly a positive example to follow regarding treatment of women.

Show me the teenage boy that is a positive example to follow regarding the treatment of women, or the teenage boy that's particularly interested in setting one. :eek:

That asideyou can still see Rob liking the more experienced and likeable Theon. As ever you may not like the actions and decisions of your friends but you can certainly forgive them and be amused by them. Robb's more shall we say chivalrous viewpoint on women would more likely come from his parents.

[mrlukeduke]

Honestly I don't know why people give Robb much credit at all. He was largely just following his penis around!

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Honestly I don't know why people give Robb much credit at all. He was largely just following his penis around!

What you mean a young man loses his cherry and thinks that it's love? Shock horror. Yeah the guy should have listened to Theon a bit more about these things. Actually that's a good point if Theon had been around would he have married Jayne? At that point Robb only has his lords around him, who he can't really ask for love without seeming weak, he might have listened to Ned, except he's dead, or Jon, nightswatch, so the only one to give him ideas on this is Catelyn who is kind of obsessed with guys being noble and honourable when it comes to sex thanks to Ned's dalliance.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

What you mean a young man loses his cherry and thinks that it's love? Shock horror. Yeah the guy should have listened to Theon a bit more about these things. Actually that's a good point if Theon had been around would he have married Jayne? At that point Robb only has his lords around him, who he can't really ask for love without seeming weak, he might have listened to Ned, except he's dead, or Jon, nightswatch, so the only one to give him ideas on this is Catelyn who is kind of obsessed with guys being noble and honourable when it comes to sex thanks to Ned's dalliance.

Robb actually married Jeyne without consulting his mother, and Cat thinks it's a stupid move, although she does admire him for it, because it reminds her of Ned.

[mrlukeduke]

the only one to give him ideas on this is Catelyn who is kind of obsessed with guys being noble and honourable when it comes to sex thanks to Ned's dalliance.

Actually you bring up another (accidentally?) great point! :P

Eddard, all Jon Snow theories aside, is for all intents and purposes as far as Robb knows, someone who was not faithful to his wife – and broke his original commitment to Catelyn (yeah yeah, "but it was war" and all that...). So he's not exactly the perfect role model as father, though there are far worse fathers of course.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Robb actually married Jeyne without consulting his mother, and Cat thinks it's a stupid move, although she does admire him for it, because it reminds her of Ned.

Yeah but she would have fed into his ideas of what the right thing to do would have been. Theon on the other hand would have high fived him (well the Westeros equivilant of) and told him to move onto the next one. Something the Freys would have found acceptable, so no Red Wedding and Rob is King of the North still.

As has been pointed out to all extents and purposes as far as Robb and Catelyn knew that actually isn't Ned like behaviour becuase of Jon. I believe Catelyn would have put extra influence on Robb and his brothers to do the right thing by women, when they were growing up, which would have influenced his decision to marry Jayne. As you say she understands and accepts it very easily.

[David Selig]

Yeah but she would have fed into his ideas of what the right thing to do would have been. Theon on the other hand would have high fived him (well the Westeros equivilant of) and told him to move onto the next one. Something the Freys would have found acceptable, so no Red Wedding and Rob is King of the North still.

As has been pointed out to all extents and purposes as far as Robb and Catelyn knew that actually isn't Ned like behaviour becuase of Jon. I believe Catelyn would have put extra influence on Robb and his brothers to do the right thing by women, when they were growing up, which would have influenced his decision to marry Jayne. As you say she understands and accepts it very easily.

Catelyn thought that Robb marrying Jeyne was really dumb ("It is swords you need, not gentle hearts. How could you do this, Robb? How could you be so heedless, so stupid?"), but since it was a done deal, there was no point antagonising her son over it by voicing those thoughts, plus he could throw releasing Jaime back at her and things would've gotten ugly between them.

For her, the right thing to do after Robb had sex with Jeyne would've probably been for him to arrange a decent marriage for Jeyne by giving her some land and a title to her husband as a dowry, and then Robb to still marry the Frey girl.

[Summer is Ending]

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight.

I doubt you could say Cat would ever be literally happy with Ned sleeping around and fathering bastards but that was never her problem. It was Ned bringing his bastard into her home that was unbearable. We can't say how Cat raised Robb to think of women but I seriously doubt she raised him to break his word and marriage pact to marry the first girl he slept with.

Nor does she ever admire him for it because it reminds her of Ned. How could it remind her of Ned when he actually did his duty and married the complete stranger he wasn't even supposed to marry in the first place? Is there even a passage where Cat equated Robb marrying Jeyne to Ned in any way? Her admiration comes from Robb's trapping her into accepting it without a fight.

[Dimadick]

Robb only has his lords around him, who he can't really ask for love without seeming weak

Robb asking Black Walder Frey or Roose Bolton for love would not seem "weak". Try "awkward", "weird". They agreed to fight for him. Not to explore personal relationships with him.

[mrlukeduke]

Goddam you guys are smart and have interesting counter-perspectives. Love this forum!

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Robb asking Black Walder Frey or Roose Bolton for love would not seem "weak". Try "awkward", "weird". They agreed to fight for him. Not to explore personal relationships with him.

OK yeah, fair enough. I think the point is it's not going to happen.

[Stannis the Wight]

Just when I think I'll open a thread about something, someone else goes and does it.

I think Robb and Theon had a very interesting relationship and a real case of friendship. Robb treated him like a friend and brother and Theon enjoyed his company a lot. I really wish GRRM had let us have Theon one last scene with Robb. Maybe like Theon meeting him at the Red Wedding and then being taking as a surviving prisoner back to the Dreadfort (Robb did ask Bolton to bring Theon to him).

Maybe they will go that road in the show? That would be cool. Maybe Theon breaks down and apologizes, tells him that his brothers really aren't dead....something to make viewers develop some kind of sympathy for Theon because most people just hate him.

[redviper9]

Maybe they will go that road in the show? That would be cool. Maybe Theon breaks down and apologizes, tells him that his brothers really aren't dead....something to make viewers develop some kind of sympathy for Theon because most people just hate him.

I doubt this will happen. For one, in the show, no one outside of Winterfell knows that Bran and Rickon are "dead" (Theon and Dagmer killed the ravens in the show, which did not happen in the books).

Second, Theon regretting not having been at Robb's side during the RW is one of the most important aspects of his arc in ADWD. That regret could easily set him up to do something to "make it up" to Robb in the final two books.

[Stannis the Wight]

I doubt this will happen. For one, in the show, no one outside of Winterfell knows that Bran and Rickon are "dead" (Theon and Dagmer killed the ravens in the show, which did not happen in the books).

Second, Theon regretting not having been at Robb's side during the RW is one of the most important aspects of his arc in ADWD. That regret could easily set him up to do something to "make it up" to Robb in the final two books.

But they will know about Bran and Rickon soon enough. I agree it doesn't seem likely, but it would be great to have one last interaction between Robb and Theon, how they would do it though I have no clue....

Idea: Maybe Bolton brings Theon to Robb at the Twins, and it being a wedding Robb decides to not execute him right away. Theon gets thrown in a cell where he and Robb have a talk, Theon breaks down and Robb is a cold motherfucker toward him. After shit goes down, Theon gets taken with Bolton back to the Dreadfort. It's not perfect but then again I'm not a writer.

[Summer is Ending]

But they will know about Bran and Rickon soon enough. I agree it doesn't seem likely, but it would be great to have one last interaction between Robb and Theon, how they would do it though I have no clue....

Idea: Maybe Bolton brings Theon to Robb at the Twins, and it being a wedding Robb decides to not execute him right away. Theon gets thrown in a cell where he and Robb have a talk, Theon breaks down and Robb is a cold motherfucker toward him. After shit goes down, Theon gets taken with Bolton back to the Dreadfort. It's not perfect but then again I'm not a writer.

That's a tragedy of life. Too many times people are left holding nothing but regret. For Martin to cheapen this by making up some contrived plot for Theon to show up at the Twins to engage in some sentimental drivel with Robb... well that's one thing Martin can be good at. Resisting the wishfull need to let his characters have that one last talk, reveal that one last secret.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I for one, wonder when it is you supose Theon betrayed Robb?

While Theon seemed cocky, at the start, he is rather weak willed. He did go to his father, he did try to plead his and Robbs plan, but back down after his father questions what kind of man he is. He then does as his father told him, and attacks the North. He wins WF, to try and show up his sister, and to show he was an Ironman, but then is goaded in to killing people there by other Ironmen because he doesn't want to seem weak. When Bran and the our gang escape, he is again goaded into doing things he did not want to do, this time by "Reek" his prisoner, who he was too weak to stop.

Theon was always weak willed, likely from growing up as a hostage. He was just to weak to stop things from happening, even in his own name.