Rolex Baratheon Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Uncomparable. Like comparing gold to sulphur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Melisandre compares to Gandalf about like ASoIaF compares to LoTR: not very well. Mel is less powerful, more error-prone, and generally more fun than Gandalf. Where Gandalf has the Balrog, Mel has, who, Stannis? Selyse? Maybe later she battles the Great Other, but I see a stronger R'hullor follower than Mel being able to defeat him/her.I only detect a surface parallelism.Yes, but Martin has specifically compared the two. Certainly, Melisandre makes errors, but then so does Gandalf. Gandalf is inherently more powerful (after all, he's an angel) but his power is reduced by taking human form, and he's explicitly ordered to limit the use of his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Yes, but Martin has specifically compared the two. Certainly, Melisandre makes errors, but then so does Gandalf. Gandalf is inherently more powerful (after all, he's an angel) but his power is reduced by taking human form, and he's explicitly ordered to limit the use of his power.Martin says lotsa stuff. How serious he is is another matter, Only he knows that.He likes LoTR, so he says "George, we need a Gandalf, but let's make it as different as possible. Start with a sex change, sexy redhead, not creaky old fart, inept foreseer", go on from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Baratheon Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Judging both of them in the context of their own series, let's weigh them against each other and see who is better, more important and more powerful, better meaning successful in their role.Gandalf is one of a not-so-numerous-at-all order of extremely powerful beings, so powerful that he is told to restrict the use of his powers whenever he can. He is also one of the major characters in LOTR, and by major I mean first-tier. Up there with Aragorn and Frodo. He is extremely successful; he successfully helped defeat the forces of Sauron. He is extremely wise in all sorts of matters and his dialogues seem to contain life lessons anybody could follow; he was respected by all as a mentor and a leader as well.Melisandre on the other hand is one of the order of many priests who follow what they believe is a Fire god. She is not nearly as powerful as Gandalf, seeing as her combat abilities are negligible and most of her work is as a shaman; to foresee, predict and judge. And she is very tricky in that (does not tell lies exactly, but not exactly truths either). Also, she is not one of a highest-level sort of order that Gandalf is; there are many, many more like her across the world.She is also not much loved as Gandalf is and not nearly as wise. She's tricky and mysterious, and she lacks human empathy which Gandalf has plenty of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpTyrion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Uncomparable. Like comparing gold to sulphur.I just had to "Quote" this one, very well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 In fairness, Gandalf's strategy was very nearly disastrous. Sending the Ring into Mordor was a horrible gamble, even if every other alternative was worse. And if Mordor's armies had triumphed in Gondor, and Dale, the subsequent destruction of the One Ring would have been a very pyrrhic victory. Gandalf needed a huge amount of luck (or Divine intervention) to defeat Sauron.Haha...this has been a topic of discussion in my Tolkien group so many times...did the Valar really leave Middle Earth to its luck? were the Istari the only help they sent? Gwaihir and the eagles were most likely following Thorondor and Manwe's wishes...and....ok lets stop now ¬_¬ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melpomene Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Oh Mel, first compared to Rasputin and now Gandalf! She is like everyone!But indeed, there are a lot of differences between the two, even if there are a couple of similarities here and there. Never really considered them a like before...... They are both magical, one being the sorceress from a special place and the other the wizard part of a special group, both are advisor types, and both are involved with wars. Both sort of deal supernatural type of creatures, with Mel in the world of The Others and Gandalf with a bunch of orcs. Both, at least, have the same basic desire of helping mankind. Otherwise, their methods, their views, their specific goals, the people they surround themselves with are different. Mel works with a King and his family in opting for his destiny, all while just fighting other kings and using spells to rid them, she is beautiful in rich attire, can use clamours, sacrifices people, predicts the future, has her fire, powders and shadows, likes to flirt, taunt and prove herself, imposes a sort of faith in others, outsmarts assasination attempts that occur against her. Gandalf, while is around kings, ultimately advises everyone altogether, is more humble in his dress, isn't really into sacrificing people, doesn't really do things like switch people's bodies, mainly known for using lightning, kinesis, bonding with animals and using a staff as a source of his skill, has a heiarchy of his own in which he is quite high up, obviously isn't using his looks to get what he needs, is more of a coercer instead of an enforcer, and doesn't depend on a prophecy the same way and basing human civilization on it (As far as I can remember), plus, of course, the type of war he is in is different than Mel, he doesn't fight for a specific throne or kings, but fights a naughty lord and a naughty wizard who wants to take over everything and he is there to help the good guys threatened by them. And again, I've said something like this close before, their worlds are very different from one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I've made the comparison often myself but not in their individual characteristics or anything relating to their personalities; those are obviously quite different and there is no use trying to draw similarities there. It's more about their roles within their respective stories and the function they serve to the greater plot. In that way, they actually tread a familiar path, only with Melisandre coming off as a purposely perverted, twisted, version of Gandalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Adder Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 mel, the westerosi equivelant of Gandalf? As if!!The role of Gandalf in this story obviously belongs to Brynden Rivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 When you mention Gandalf, you make me think of Merlin. Melisandre reminds me more of Merlin than Gandalf. Melisandre and Stannis' relationship is like an alternate version of Arthur's story: What if Morgana advised King Arthur and not Merlin? While Melisandre is a priestess of questionable intentions, Morgana is outright evil in most stories, a tragic character in others. Stannis even wields a magic sword from an ancient legend. I wonder if those similarities were intentional or if they're just fantasy troupes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affcwasmyfavorite Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I want to see a Mel vs Gandalf debate now.... haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 We have a PoV from Mel that shows that she does have doubts, that she hides them from the general public is no great surprise. As far as we have seen her from other people, well, GRRM has shown that what others perceive is not necessarily reality.In the Hobbit we see Gandalf largely from Bilbo's perspective, and in the Lord of the Rings largely from the other Hobbits perspectives. These are some pretty nice people inclined to believe the best about Gandalf.Now, I am not saying the are the same, Gandalf was basically a god/demigod in human form, Mel is just a real person.A lot of what Mel gets is because she is a woman, a priestess of a foreign religion and tremendous fear because she does have real power, both magical and political. She cultivates a certain image and finds it useful, that's pretty close to what Gandalf does, though the images are somewhat different.In the end I don't really see the similarities beyond having magical power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unburnt Hound Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I see it yet I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 When you mention Gandalf, you make me think of Merlin. Melisandre reminds me more of Merlin than Gandalf. Melisandre and Stannis' relationship is like an alternate version of Arthur's story: What if Morgana advised King Arthur and not Merlin? While Melisandre is a priestess of questionable intentions, Morgana is outright evil in most stories, a tragic character in others. Stannis even wields a magic sword from an ancient legend. I wonder if those similarities were intentional or if they're just fantasy troupes?Yes, most portrayals of Merlin show him to be pretty ruthless. Merlin wouldn't shrink from human sacrifice, if he thought it necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Judging both of them in the context of their own series, let's weigh them against each other and see who is better, more important and more powerful, better meaning successful in their role.Gandalf is one of a not-so-numerous-at-all order of extremely powerful beings, so powerful that he is told to restrict the use of his powers whenever he can. He is also one of the major characters in LOTR, and by major I mean first-tier. Up there with Aragorn and Frodo. He is extremely successful; he successfully helped defeat the forces of Sauron. He is extremely wise in all sorts of matters and his dialogues seem to contain life lessons anybody could follow; he was respected by all as a mentor and a leader as well.Melisandre on the other hand is one of the order of many priests who follow what they believe is a Fire god. She is not nearly as powerful as Gandalf, seeing as her combat abilities are negligible and most of her work is as a shaman; to foresee, predict and judge. And she is very tricky in that (does not tell lies exactly, but not exactly truths either). Also, she is not one of a highest-level sort of order that Gandalf is; there are many, many more like her across the world.She is also not much loved as Gandalf is and not nearly as wise. She's tricky and mysterious, and she lacks human empathy which Gandalf has plenty of.In fact, most of the points of view we get are from people who dislike or at least distrust Melisandre. Davos and Cressen detest her, and Jon, while somewhat attracted to her, is extremely distrustful. Yet, we know from the text that Stannis, Selyse, Devan and the Queen's Men greatly admire her.We never get a POV in LOTR from someone who actually dislikes or distrusts Gandalf.As it happens, Melisandre is one of my favourite characters in the series (which is not the same as saying she's one of the nicest characters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Mel/Merlin is a clever comparison. More apt than Gandalf, IMO.I do like Mel as a character way better than Gandalf. She's wrong a lot and does some nasty stuff but she has some juice. Gandalf's just an authority figure with power, bone dry and humorless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 In fact, most of the points of view we get are from people who dislike or at least distrust Melisandre. Davos and Cressen detest her, and Jon, while somewhat attracted to her, is extremely distrustful. Yet, we know from the text that Stannis, Selyse, Devan and the Queen's Men greatly admire her.We never get a POV in LOTR from someone who actually dislikes or distrusts Gandalf.As it happens, Melisandre is one of my favourite characters in the series (which is not the same as saying she's one of the nicest characters).I'm not sure that "admire," is quite the right word with Stannis. He respects her and her power, but from what we see of his attitude to her, I wouldn't call it admiration. That's just my opinion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampire Squid Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Gandalf's just an authority figure with power, bone dry and humorless.Did you read the same LotR as me? This is one of the most inaccurate descriptions of Gandalf I've seen. It's accurate enough for (much of) the first half of RotK, but Gandalf's first appearance in the trilogy is as a party entertainer, he spends the post-victory chapters just hanging out with his friends and letting out all the mirth he didn't have time for during the last stage of the war (and even then, he still indulges in a bit of humour and personal warmth), and as for his on-screen presence in The Hobbit...Er, quickly getting on topic...Their job descriptions are near-identical, but Gandalf is a) far more knowledgeable than Melisandre, and b ) more importantly, he spent much of his time in Valinor learning compassion and pity from Nienna. If Mel had lived on the Quiet Isle for a proportional amount of time, there'd be far more similarity, but as it is, they're two very different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saeed Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Gandolf and melisandre?! :shocked:Next we should talk about Samwise Gamgee and tyrion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Wife Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Gandolf and melisandre?! :shocked:Next we should talk about Samwise Gamgee and tyrion!I'd rather talk about Samwise Gamgee and Samwell Tarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.