A truly just man? - a Stannis reread

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Any similarities between Ned and Stannis sure failed to register to Robert, I can't help but notice.

Stannis is exactly like Ned in all things nature. The things they differ on are the traits acquired through nurture.

I think they are pretty similar. The differences being that Ned is merciful, and not as opinionated. Ned for the most part keeps his opinions to himself and tries to be pleasant. Stannis on the other hand always speaks his mind, and is stiffer in general than Ned. Catelyn even refers to Stannis as being 'entirely with out mercy', although its not strictly true.

[Tagganaro]

Great review as always DP! I too am very intrigued by what conversation takes place pre-feast that seems to change everything. Stannis's behavior towards Cressen seems so singularly cruel and unusual on his part. So many "That was weird" moments that Cressen himself mentions in the chapter. Perhaps there's not much to be read into it besides for a very superficial "good vs. evil" dichotomy, where the devils on Stannis's shoulder have won out over Cressen and Davos, and his behavior towards Cressen is just supposed to make that obvious?

I get such a sad vibe from these early chapters (and actually really the majority of chapters involving Stannis). He's just a very sad person. Here we have a desperate human being who just wants attention and recognition for what he knows/believes to be rightfully his- And he just can't and won't ever get it. I think this chapter is supposed to establish why Stannis has now turned to Melisandre/Selyse and away from Cressen/Davos at the moment. He's just so desperate, and the only people who will give him "honest" advice are telling him this war is essentially a lost cause. So he turns to the easier solution of Mel just offering him basically all he wants.

[Ragnorak]

I think the primary thing about the humiliation of Cressen is that it undermines the sympathy readers might have for Stannis based on Cresson's POV. Cressen is useless to Stannis here because he doesn't really understand him despite Cressen's belief to the contrary. His advice is valid for most any other lord except he is pointing out a practicality on which Stannis will simply not yield. We'll learn later that this is Stannis choosing to try a "red hawk" because he has nothing to lose. (He actually has everything to lose but not from his perspective.)

This is an interesting distinction when compared to Tywin and Ned. Stannis is somewhere in between. He's like Ned in that honor wins out over caution and reason, though unlike Ned Stannis would not yield for love of family. Stannis is willing to go further than almost any other lord as we're seeing with his turning from the Seven, but Stannis would not ever consider a Red Wedding like Tywin did. I actually think there are more Ned compares than Tywin similarities but it is a revealing exercise trying to place Stannis in the spectrum that runs between Ned and Tywin.

[Winterfellian]

I just caught up with this interesting project! Am liking the analysis that has been put forth regarding Stannis.

If I may, I will like to comment on Stannis's choice of Davos for an envoy. I think the choice of Davos is an interesting one and speaks a lot of Stannis's way of thinking. In ACOK we have 2 other examples of envoys sent to treat with The Reach/Stormlands. The Lannister sent Littlefinger with a marriage proposal and Robb sent Catelyn with the intention of a possible alliance. There's a lot to contrast with the choice and investiture of these envoys with the manner in which Stannis went about it. I think in terms of envoys, Robb had the best asset in Cat. She was highborn, had skills in politics and more importantly, she's a person Robb can completely trust not to play him false so I will focus on the Lannister-Stannis envoys.

Much like the Lannisters, Stannis sends a men of a lesser status in comparison to other high lords. LF is regarded as the smallest of small lords and Davos is the "onion knight". This is the only thing this messengers have in common. While the Lannisters sent LF away with all sorts of "power trappings" (He's carrying a letter seal by the king and council, gold to buy loyalties and a big retinue of guards. All these to try and convey the importance both of the messenger and the mission) there is no evidence to suggest that Davos was sent forth in a similar manner on his mission. However, judged by Davos's attire when we first met him shortly after returning and Stannis's own ideas of duty I think is safe to say that Davos was sent in a less fashionable way than LF. (Interesting enough, when he is send to treat with White Harbor, Stannis employs a different tactic)

However what in my eyes makes so interesting the choice between LF and Davos is the reasoning behind it. The Lannisters chose LF because they needed a man who did more that just carry the message. They needed a schemer, so even if they didn't trust LF (Tyrion the acting Hand didn't) they still made use of him in this important mission. Scheming is something Davos himself admits he's poorly fitted to do. While the book doesn't say exactly why Stannis employed Davos, I think the reason is in Davos's own words:

You could bring him no hope?"

"Only the false sort, and I'd not do that," Davos said. "He had the truth from me."

We know in fact that Stannis constantly seeks Davos's counsel because he always tells him the truth. Even if Stannis doesn't opt for a schemer like LF due to his disregard for the Game of thrones or for blind belief in his own cause the fact remains that he is sending a men he expects to hear the truth from. He chose a person he knows will not play him false, unlike the Lannisters who sent someone they didn't even fully trust for the sake of the game. Even if he wasn't plating the game as others more experienced in it do it is ironic that in the long way Stannis was the one most benefited by his choice of envoy, even if it didn't look like it at first glance. I think is this little details that explains why he is still alive when others that were ahead of the race have perished.

[Ragnorak]

Excellent point, Winterfellian.

They also each sent what they valued and expected. The Lannisters sent LF with gold, schemes and an offer of power. Robb sent family and Cat's apeal to Renly and Stannis was one of family. Stannis sent a loyal man appealing to law and duty. Davos conveyed what Stannis expected. The esteem Stannis holds for Davos is widely known so despite others misgivings about Davos he wouldn't really be received as an insult (though those already intent on refusal might claim such as a pretense.) Davos conveys no bribes or schemes, just the message that duty is rewarded and crime is punished. Anyone agreeing to support Stannis with Davos as the envoy would also be conveying the same honest support.

[Babeldygob]

Stannis believes that every lord should call to him if they have any sense of duty and honor. He makes the mistake in the fact that he gives other people too much credit, so he's liable to betrayal. This is where Melisandre comes in. I think he values her because of her being able to see the future, not just because the future is badass to know, but he can spot betrayal from a distance. I think it's also because he knows that all kinds of betrayal can get to him. His brother betraying him is only a small part. He doesn't seem shocked by it, he hates it and can't understand it, but still he doesn't seem very shocked. I think Stannis' past may be riddled with all kinds of little and big betrayals. This would give him another reason to value Davos above all other. He knows he is loyal. Davos laid down his life for Stannis and his men even if he didn't know Stannis. What Davos did is the opposite of betrayal. Davos betrayed himself, his own nature as a smuggler to save Stannis.

[Blisscraft]

Stannis has three women in his life: His queen, Selyse; his daughter, Shireen; and Melisandre, his . . . advisor. The first of these women (girl really) we meet, is the maiden, Shireen. Martin plays with the manner these feminine aspects are presented in this chapter.

As part of the "new god" system of Westeros, the maiden stands for the future, potential and new possibilities. She is the spring, like Persephone. However, Shireen, Stannis' maiden is wounded by greyscale. Her potential is uncertain because her beauty is marred. She dreams about stone dragons waking to eat her. Her companion is Patchface, who also frightenes her with his song about shadows dancing.

The next woman we meet in the prologue is Selyse. She is the "mother" in the "new god" system. She is also a mother to Shireen, but has no other children. Also, she is very "unfeminine" as she is as tall as Stannis and has a mustache. She is not nuturing. It's her idea to "get rid of" Renly, fratricide. Finally, she brings Melisandre and the "newest" new god to Stannis. A mono god. A "jealous" god who can tolerate no others, the Lord of Light.

The last woman, but not the least, is Melisandre. She is representative of the Crone or "wise woman." However, she seems nothing like a Crone in her description. She is red, red, red. Red is the color of blood and fire, the color of lust, passion, and transformation. However, when we meet her, she seems to have a compassionate side, that Selyse lacks. She is the one who picks up Cressen when he falls. She is so strong that Cressen, at first, thinks she is a man. She crowns Cressen with PF's helm and presents a riddle (like Varys does later in this text to Tyrion), "A clever fool and a foolish wise man." What's the solution to the riddle? Is Cressen both a clever fool and a foolish wise man? Cressen doubts Mel's power and it is his comment, "[g]ods make uncertain allies at best," that provokes Mel to suggest he wear PF's helm again. Selyse insists he wear it, then Stannis' follows her "command," and PF sets the helm upon Cressen's head. Once upon his head, Cressen gets the idea how he can poison Mel by sharing Davos' cup of wine with her. After slipping in the poison, though seen by Davos, but no one else, Cressen proposes a toast to Mel in honor of her god. Mel attempts to give Cressen an out. Cressen spills a drop of the red wine onto the rushes. She says, "It's not too late to spill the wine. . . " She drinks first and drinks most of it. There is only a half a swallow left for Cressen. When she gives him the cup, there is pity in her eyes. A wise fool; a foolish wise man. She is unharmed, he dies.

This event is proof of her power as a "wise woman," priestess, and/or sybill. This event, as noted above, is perhaps the event that changes Stannis mind, that takes him off the fence and thrusts him to side with the Lord of Light. Later, these female new gods will burn as a sacrifice to the new god. Also, it is important to note that in the "new gods" system there is no male equivalent for the wise old man. There is only wisdom from the Crone figure. As noted above, the "failures" to Stannis are found in the choices by and of men. Stannis will try to achieve success through the insight of women.

[Babeldygob]

Do we know anything about Stannis' mother except that she died with his dad? He didn;t have a sister. I think Stannis lacked a female rolemodel in his life. This could explain why he is so easily swayed by a woman like Melisandre and why he can't stand his wife. Robert always had it easy with the women and I think Stannis might've been jealous of this too. Lacking a good female rolemodel makes it hard for someone to have a functioning relationship with a woman. We see this in Robert and I guess Renly, but Stannis too. Sure, he can keep faith, but this is more because he doesn't lust for women on any level it seems. Robert seems to have developed the exact opposite approach to women, but they both fail.

I think that Stannis' reason to go with Melisandre might be because she's the first woman that actually makes him feel 'funny' at times. I think he might be following his emotions much more than we think and would also explain his sudden disregard for Cressen.

In line with what Blisscraft said I believe Stannis is ready to choose a woman over a man in his life.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

This re-read is awesome and those who’ve contributed thus far have done an excellent job of elaborating on a complex and interesting character. I’m not quite sure of what to make of the following observations and I’m wondering what folks think.

We all know shadows figure into the text quite ominously

• Shadowbinders,
  
• the Lord of Light god of flame and shadow,
  
• Shadow Babies,
  
• the Stranger,
  
• Tyrion describes Mandon Moore as a "white shadow" twice,
  
• Tormund refers to the others as “shadows with teeth”
  

We also know that Stannis has a unique relationship to shadows having fathered two himself, beyond his shadow babies he’s often described as being in Robert’s shadow, he also cast a shadow over KL and Blackwater Rush twice in the Prologue to ACoK and later in ADwD he and mel cast their shadows on the wall reflecting the red light of the wierwood pire used to burn Not-Mance. However when I was re-reading the Stannis material I noticed that Stannis is the only person described to have shadow like facial hair who hasn’t been revealed to be someone he's not (Gla-Mance and the Alchemist are the others).

Stannis is described 4 times by 4 different people as having a Shadow of a beard.

The first description of Stannis in the ACoK prologue from the PoV of Maester Cressen refers to him having grown a blue-black shadow of a beard as if in response to Roberts wild beard.

...

though he was not yet five-and-thirty, only a fringe of thin black hair remained on his head, circling behind his ears like the shadow of a crown. His brother, the late King Robert, had grown a beard in his final years. Maester Cressen had never seen it, but they said it was a wild thing, thick and flerce. As if in answer, Stannis kept his own whiskers cropped tight and short. They lay like a blue-black shadow across his square jaw and the bony hollows of his cheeks.

...

Davos later described stannis beard as a blue-black shadow

...

The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue. Davos understood only the last. “R’hllor, come to us in our darkness,” she called. “Lord of Light, we offer you these false gods, these seven who are one, and him the enemy. Take them and cast your light upon us, for the night is dark and full of terrors.” Queen Selyse echoed the words. Beside her, Stannis watched impassively, his jaw hard as stone under the blue-black shadow of his tight-cropped beard. He had dressed more richly than was his wont, as if for the sept.

...

In one of Jon’s PoV in ADwD he also describes stannis’s beard as being shadow like.

...

Stannis read from the letter. “Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king.” His close-cropped beard laylike a shadow over his hollow cheeks. “See that you keep these tidings to yourself, Lord Snow. Karhold is with me, that is all the men need know. I will not have your brothers trading tales of how this child spat on me.”

...

In one of Asha’s PoV in ADwD Stannis is again described as having a shadow of a beard

...

The king stood outside his tent, staring into the nightfire. What does he see there? Victory? Doom? The face of his red and hungry god? His eyes were sunk in deep pits, his close-cropped beard no more than a shadow across his hollow cheeks and bony jawbone. Yet there was power in his stare, an iron ferocity that told Asha this man would never, ever turn back from his course.

...

The only other similar instances of people’s faces being described as being shadowed are Gla-Mance and the Alchemist/Jaqen H’ghar who are both, like Stannis, described as having facial hair that is shadow like. For instance:

Pate’s description of The Alchemist/Jaqen H'ghar

...

“As you wish.” The alchemist pulled his hood down.

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. “I do not know you.”

...

Mel’s Description of Gla-Mance

...

The wildling wore a sleeveless jerkin of boiled leather dotted with bronze studs beneath a worn cloak mottled in shades of green and brown. No bones. He was cloaked in shadows too, in wisps of ragged grey mist, half-seen, sliding across his face and form with every step he took. Ugly things. As ugly as his bones. A widow’s peak, close-set dark eyes, pinched cheeks, a mustache wriggling like a worm above a mouthful of broken brown teeth.

...

Gla-Mance returning back into Mance

...

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling’s wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

The bones remained—the rattling ribs, the claws and teeth along his arms and shoulders, the great yellowed collarbone across his shoulders. The broken giant’s skull remained a broken giant’s skull, yellowed and cracked, grinning its stained and savage grin.

But the widow’s peak dissolved. The brown mustache, the knobby chin, the sallow yellowed flesh and small dark eyes, all melted. Grey fingers crept through long brown hair. Laugh lines appeared at the corners of his mouth. All at once he was bigger than before, broader in the chest and shoulders, long-legged and lean, his face clean-shaved and wind-burnt.

...

Other descriptions of people who’s faces are shadowed generally refer to external objects casting a shadow on/over their face. For instance:

Form the prologue to AGoT

...

Gared's hood shadowed his face, but Will could see the hard glitter in his eyes as he stared at the knight.

...

Description of cold hands

...

The rest of him was wrapped in layers of wool and boiled leather and ringmail, his features shadowed by his hooded cloak and a black woolen scarf about the lower half of his face.

...

Brienne describes UnCat as having red eyes burning in the shadows of her hood

...

…Her eyes were two red pits burning in the shadows…

...

The description of Hizdahr’s face when Drogon reappeared

...

“A shadow rippled across his face.

The tumult and the shouting died. Ten thousand voices stilled. Every eye turned skyward. A warm wind brushed Dany’s cheeks, and above the beating of her heart she heard the sound of wings. Two spearmen dashed for shelter. The pitmaster froze where he stood. The boar went snuffling back to Barsena. Strong Belwas gave a moan, stumbled from his seat, and fell to his knees.”

...

This scene is similar to the earlier scene in which the approach of Stannis against Mance’s host is revealed by a Shadow sweeping over Jon.

...

“Something’s coming.” Varamyr sat cross-legged on the half-frozen ground, his wolves circled restlessly around him. A shadow swept over him, and Jon looked up to see the eagle’s blue-grey wings. “Coming, from the east.”

...

All of these descriptions involve an external object a hood, a dragon, or a bird, that casts a shadow on an individuals face. Thus Stannis is the only person other than Gla-Mance and the Alchemist to be described in terms of his own features being shadows (keeping in mind that the Stranger, a god, is often described as a shadow as well). This is some strange company.

The only exception, that I’ve found, is Ned’s ToJ dream in which he remembers his companions as shadows. This scene is different in that Ned remembers not just their faces as shadows but also their swords as shadows as well. This seems to have more to do w/ Ned’s sense of Doubt about the Deaths left in the wake of Roberts Rebellion as he sat in a Black Cell in the dungeon of the Red Keep after Robert’s death and the collapse of the kingdom they secured. The shadow reference in this scene is probably more of a reference to the stranger and the possible underhanded tactics used by Ned et. al. to defeat 3 of the finest nights in all of the Seven Kingdoms, than it is a reference to any sorcerers glamour or mummers artifice or a facelessman.

In addition to being the only person described in this fashion, that hasn’t been revealed to be someone he’s not, stannis has also had a number of statements made about him or by people around him that seem to hint to some funny business. For instance:

In Maester Cressen’s Prologue before we are introduced to Stannis Patchface sang the following:

...

“Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool,” said Patchface, jangling. “Oh, clever clever clever fool.” He began to sing. “The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord,” he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. “The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord.” He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor....

Patchface continued singing the same song

...

“The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord” the fool sang on, swinging his head and making his bells clang and clatter. Bong dong, ring-a-ling, bong dong.

“Lord,” the white raven shrieked. “Lord, lord, lord.”...

It’s possible that Patchface is referring to Stannis as the Shadow that has come to dance and stay.

Additionally throughout the prologue Cressen is taken back by the fact that he’s not woken to be by Stannis’ side.

...

There was a time when Lord Stannis would have woken him, no matter the hour, to have him there to give his counsel. “I should have been told,” Cressen complained. “I should have been woken.” ...

...

“Once you would have woken me,” the old man said.

“Once you were young. Now you are old and sick, and need your sleep.” Stannis had never learned to soften his speech, to dissemble or flatter; he said what he thought, and those that did not like it could be damned. “I knew you’d learn what Davos had to say soon enough. You always do, don’t you?”

...

...

When he woke it was full dark, his bedchamber was black, and every joint in his body ached. Cressen pushed himself up, his head throbbing. Clutching for his cane, he rose unsteady to his feet. So late, he thought. They did not summon me. He was always summoned for feasts, seated near the salt, close to Lord Stannis. His lord’s face swam up before him, not the man he was but the boy he had been, standing cold in the shadows while the sun shone on his elder brother. Whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better. Poor boy... he must hurry, for his sake.The maester found the crystals where he had left them, and scooped them off the parchment. Cressen owned no hollow rings, such as the poisoners of Lys were said to favor, but a myriad of pockets great and small were sewn inside the loose sleeves of his robe. He secreted the strangler seeds in one of them, threw open his door, and called, “Pylos? Where are you?” When he heard no reply, he called again, louder. “Pylos, I need help.” Still there came no answer. That was queer; the young maester had his cell only a half turn down the stair, within easy earshot.

In the end, Cressen had to shout for the servants. “Make haste,” he told them. “I have slept too long. They will be feasting by now... drinking... I should have been woken.” What had happened to Maester Pylos? Truly, he did not understand.

...

Now this can be read as a simple changing of the guard narrative between the old gods (the Seven) and the new god (the Lord of Light) and the fact that Cressen has fallen out of favor, however Cressen mentions twice that Stannis does not seem himself.

...

“You are too ill and too confused to be of use to me, old man.” It sounded so like Lord Stannis’s voice, but it could not be, it could not. “Pylos will counsel me henceforth. Already he works with the ravens, since you can no longer climb to the rookery. I will not have you kill yourself in my service.”

...

...

Lord Stannis’s eyes were shadowed beneath his heavy brow, his mouth tight as his jaw

worked silently. He always ground his teeth when he was angry. “Fool,” he growled at last, “my lady wife commands. Give Cressen your helm.”

No, the old maester thought, this is not you, not your way, you were always just, always hard yet never cruel, never, you did not understand mockery, no more than you understood laughter.

...

Keep in mind that Cressen knows Stannis better than anyone else, he also loves him and wants to see him in a positive light and is in fact willing to die for him, yet twice he thinks to himself that something is amiss and that this is not Stannis.

Finally here are some passages explaining how glamor spells work, all of which refer to shadows and the use of peoples expectations and some artifact that helps create the illusion.

Mel explaining how glamors work to mance

...

“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.” Was I wrong to spare this one? “If the glamor fails, they will kill you.”….

...

and again to jon

...

…“The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”

...

The kind old man explaining glamors

...

“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed.” She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. “Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move.”

...

There it is. Stannis is described in a similar fashion as Gla-Mance and the Alchemist, which is unique to them. He is also said to not be himself in the opening chapter from the PoV of the person who knows him the best. He’s allied w/ Mel who uses Glamors and Shadows to achieve her ends, and Patchface’s songs about shadows dancing and staying while obviously refering to Mel could easily refer to Stannis himself. I don’t like the idea that Stannis is a Glamor, but at the very least it seems like the use of the shadow motif in reference to Stannis points to something more than meets the eye. Thoughts?

[Babeldygob]

I think if I put in my thoughts we're going a little beyond where we should, I think it's time for a new chapter summary :)

[Kanon]

There it is. Stannis is described in a similar fashion as Gla-Mance and the Alchemist, which is unique to them. He is also said to not be himself in the opening chapter from the PoV of the person who knows him the best. He’s allied w/ Mel who uses Glamors and Shadows to achieve her ends, and Patchface’s songs about shadows dancing and staying while obviously refering to Mel could easily refer to Stannis himself. I don’t like the idea that Stannis is a Glamor, but at the very least it seems like the use of the shadow motif in reference to Stannis points to something more than meets the eye. Thoughts?

I dont think the Stannis we know is a fake, but its possible that Mel is using glamours to hide how much damage the Shadow Baby did to Stannis body (just like Mel uses it to hide her own age). Another possibility is that this is a foreshadow for a moment where someone uses magic to pretent to be Stannis ( or Stannis pretends to be someone else).

[Associate Maester]

Looks safe to assume this re-read is dead in the water. If anyone plans to try another Stannis re-read in the future let me know. I'd love to help out.

[The guy from the Vale]

That's not exactly the case. It's just that kissdbyfire, who should post the next chapter review, is currently unavailable. We knew this beforehand, but we will continue here.

I admit I hope she's fine though, as I expected to hear back from her a week ago :/

[kissdbyfire]

Looks safe to assume this re-read is dead in the water. If anyone plans to try another Stannis re-read in the future let me know. I'd love to help out.

I should have posted the next review a week ago but rl got in the way. I will have the post ready on Monday December 3. I apologise; I'll do better next time! :bawl:

[Associate Maester]

I should have posted the next review a week ago but rl got in the way. I will have the post ready on Monday December 3. I apologise; I'll do better next time! :bawl:

No problem! Glad to know you're apparently alright and glad to know this is continuing. I look forward to posting thoughts after the next part starts.

[Ludd]

The thing is that Stannis does return to something like his real self from time to time.

I wonder if he is being WARGED - ie sometimes the real Stannis and sometimes someone else.

Not quite sure WHEN the real Stannis appears but from time to time he does

[kissdbyfire]

Bear with me, guys. The post is ready but I need to revise a few things before posting it a bit later today.

[The guy from the Vale]

Some wrapping thoughts on the Cressen prologue.

First of all, I have to admit this prologue is my favorite one in the entire series. It is self-contained in a way most others aren't, save perhaps the Pate prologue. Also, I admit to crying for Cressen on the first read, something I didn't for any of the other prologue POVs. So I think GRRM did a great job giving this chapter the tragic vibe it deserves.

As I said in my introductory post on Stannis in AGoT, I think Martin is very deliberate in having us prefer Stannis in AGoT, only to throw cold water on us with this prologue. We see the corruption in KL and hear Baelish claim that Stannis would exchange those very people we have come to despise, and so we cheer - until we see who the people around Stannis are. Melisandre is both a sorceress and a zealot, and at least in this chapter she comes across as powerful, far more so than later on when we start to see how she operates. Selyse is a bitter woman who seems to hold sway over Stannis very similarly to the way Cersei controlled Robert.

Most of these bad views will be ameliorated later - we'll see Stannis doesn't bend to Selyse quite as much as Robert bended to Cersei, Mel's magic and power turns out to be manipulation, and her manichean religious fanaticism doesn't stop her from being ruthlessly pragmatic. But those are the advantages of several POVs - for Cressen, this is what Stannis' court presents itself as, and it isn't pretty.

The entire chapter starts with Cressen standing between two gargoyles, and over the course of the first few sentences, he seems to regard these statues as his peers - an old man among stone monsters, a fossil living in the past. The present is something he struggles to comprehend. Even more interesting, Shireen is partially petrified, too, as if she shared this fossilisation with Cressen. Even as a child, she seems out of place and more living in the past than the present. She's accompanied by Patchface, a witless man without past or present, but who seems to know creepily much about the future. None of the three really embodies the present though. We have two pasts and two futures in three people, but none of them can focus on what is happening.

Then there's the episode when Cressen has to wear Patchface's antlered helmet. While I do think Cressen lives in the past, he's also undoubtedly wise. As we will see later on, Cressen used to be ruthless, and advised Stannis to be so, but he can't bring himself to be as ruthless again as he was during the siege of Storm's End. But his mellowing with age also means that Cressen may have gained some additional perspective, a perspective sorely lacking at Stannis' court (save Davos). And here, this wisdom is ridiculed by Mel and Selyse: wise men are paraded as fools while these inmates start running the asylum - or so it seems, until it becomes clear that Melisandre does have some real power, enough to thwart Cressen's plans and really make him the fool she and Selyse are for pressing Stannis' claim against all odds.

Also, a number of scheduling notes: We'll have kissdbyfire's post on Davos' first chapter up later today or tomorrow, and then I'll follow up next week with a post on the three Catelyn chapters that refer to the conflict between Renly and Stannis.

[kissdbyfire]

ACoK, chapter 10, Davos I

GENERAL OBSERVATIONS:

I love this chapter. It opens with the burning of the Seven, and the imagery in the description of said Seven burning is quite interesting, allowing for several different interpretations. It’s also interesting to be in Davos’ head for the first time, and to understand a bit more about the dynamics of his relationship with Stannis. On top of that we have Davos’ chat with Salla; we had just learned about AAR from Mel, but it is Salla who tells us of the original Azor Ahai. And closing the chapter we have a great dialogue between Davos and Stannis.

So, as Jack would say, let’s go bit by bit...

- Davos & Stannis, and what could have happened not only to Davos but to his sons as well.

We know Davos has great respect for Stannis, and we know he finds his punishment just; he knows he could have lost his head. He acknowledges he was an outlaw, but more than that he is grateful for what Stannis has done for his sons – and what he hasn’t done to them as well.

“Silence,” said Davos. “Remember where you are.” His sons were good men, but young, and Allard especially was rash. Had I stayed a smuggler, Allard would have ended on the Wall. Stannis spared him from that end, something else I owe him . . .

<...>

Everything I am, I owe to him. Stannis had raised him to knighthood. He had given him a place of honor at his table, a war galley to sail in place of a smuggler’s skiff. Dale and Allard captained galleys as well, Maric was oarmaster on the Fury, Matthos served his father on Black Betha, and the king had taken Devan as a royal squire. One day he would be knighted, and the two little lads as well. Marya was mistress of a small keep on Cape Wrath, with servants who called her m’lady, and Davos could hunt red deer in his own woods. All this he had of Stannis Baratheon, for the price of a few finger joints. It was just, what he did to me. I had flouted the king’s laws all my life. He has earned my loyalty. Davos touched the little pouch that hung from the leather thong about his neck. His fingers were his luck, and he needed luck now. As do we all. Lord Stannis most of all.

In my opinion, these are not the actions of someone without mercy. Stannis might have felt obligated to reward Davos for his onions but he could have done that with gold, for instance. Instead, he knighted Davos, and found good and honourable positions for his eldest sons, took Devan as his own personal squire, and will knight not only Devan but Davos’ two youngest sons as well.

Marya has a comfortable living now too, and Davos is grateful for that.

Pale flames licked at the grey sky. Dark smoke rose, twisting and curling. When the wind pushed it toward them, men blinked and wept and rubbed their eyes. Allard turned his head away, coughing and cursing. A taste of things to come, thought Davos. Many and more would burn before this war was done.

Not so much to do with Stannis, just a bit of foreshadowing.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. “In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.” She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. “Azor Ahai, beloved of R’hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!”

I find this passage rather interesting. We know the legend of Azor Ahai exists; we hear of it from other characters not only Mel. But I never understood how can anyone actually take what is going on here for a true unfolding of the legend. I mean, this was all staged.

It’s not like the legend says, ‘Go forth, set something on fire, stick a sword in it and it shall be Lightbringer and he who wields it shall be AAR.’ Because this is what is happening here; Mel convinced Stannis to burn the Seven – and I’m convinced she had much help from Selyse – then she stuck the sword into the statue of the Mother, and told Stannis to go get it because he is AAR.

I tried to check what the Ice and Fire app says about the legend of Azor Ahai but it keeps crashing on me – haven’t been able to play with it at all yet! :tantrum:

Melisandre lifted her hands above her head. “Behold! A sign was promised, and now a sign is seen! Behold Lightbringer! Azor Ahai has come again! All hail the Warrior of Light! All hail the Son of Fire!”

Again, ‘a sign was promised’, and now a sign has been staged for your benefit – that’s how I read Mel’s speech. And I think Stannis feels more or less the same way about this. He doesn’t buy it, but he knows Mel has some powers and is determined to make use of her.

I have talked about this a good while ago but I have no idea where... I think Mel’s AAR prophecy may turn into a self-fulfilling one, in which case Stannis may become AAR.

“For the night is dark and full of terrors,” Selyse and her queen’s men replied. Should I speak the words as well? Davos wondered. Do I owe Stannis that much? Is this fiery god truly his own? His shortened fingers twitched.

<...>

By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king’s patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

Davos questions whether Stannis has been converted and is now a true believer, like Selyse. I think that Davos questions this because he feels it is out of character for Stannis, but this is just an impression of mine.

The port was as crowded as Davos had ever known it. Every dock teemed with sailors loading provisions, and every inn was packed with soldiers dicing or drinking or looking for a whore . . . a vain search, since Stannis permitted none on his island.

We see how rigid Stannis is initially (iron that will break before it bends). Even at the Wall it is known and tolerated that the black brothers visit the whores in Mole’s Town; not on Dragonstone, though.

“Pirate,” said Davos. “You have no wives, only concubines, and you have been well paid for every day and every ship.”

“Only in promises,” said Salladhor Saan mournfully. “Good ser, it is gold I crave, not words on papers.” He popped a grape into his mouth.

“You’ll have your gold when we take the treasury in King’s Landing. No man in the Seven Kingdoms is more honorable than Stannis Baratheon. He will keep his word.” Even as Davos spoke, he thought, This world is twisted beyond hope, when lowborn smugglers must vouch for the honor of kings.

It is not just gratitude that drives Davos’ loyalty to Stannis; he does believe Stannis is an honourable man and to me this speaks volumes about them both.

“He takes his bride?”

The other shrugged. “He did not tell me why. Perhaps he is loath to part with the warm burrow between her thighs, even for a night. Or perhaps he is that certain of his victory.”

“The king must be told.”

“I have attended to it, good ser. Though His Grace frowns so whenever he does see me that I tremble to come before him. Do you think he would like me better if I wore a hair shirt and never smiled? Well, I will not do it. I am an honest man, he must suffer me in silk and samite. Or else I shall take my ships where I am better loved. That sword was not Lightbringer, my friend.”

The sudden shift in subject left Davos uneasy. “Sword?”

“A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?”

“A burning sword,” corrected Davos.

“Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

“Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

“Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.” Salladhor Saan finished the last grape and smacked his lips. “When do you think the king will bid us sail, good ser? “

“Soon, I think,” said Davos, “if his god wills it.”

“His god, ser friend? Not yours? Where is the god of Ser Davos Seaworth, knight of the onion ship?”

Davos sipped his ale to give himself a moment. The inn is crowded, and you are not Salladhor Saan, he reminded himself. Be careful how you answer. “King Stannis is my god. He made me and blessed me with his trust.”

“I will remember.” Salladhor Saan got to his feet. “My pardons. These grapes have given me a hunger, and dinner awaits on my Valyrian. Minced lamb with pepper and roasted gull stuffed with mushrooms and fennel and onion. Soon we shall eat together in King’s Landing, yes? In the Red Keep we shall feast, while the dwarf sings us a jolly tune. When you speak to King Stannis, mention if you would that he will owe me another thirty thousand dragons come the black of the moon. He ought to have given those gods to me. They were too beautiful to burn, and might have brought a noble price in Pentos or Myr. Well, if he grants me Queen Cersei for a night I shall forgive him.” The Lyseni clapped Davos on the back, and swaggered from the inn as if he owned it.

Ser Davos Seaworth lingered over his tankard for a good while, thinking. A year ago, he had been with Stannis in King’s Landing when King Robert staged a tourney for Prince Joffrey’s name day. He remembered the red priest Thoros of Myr, and the flaming sword he had wielded in the melee. The man had made for a colorful spectacle, his red robes flapping while his blade writhed with pale green flames, but everyone knew there was no true magic to it, and in the end his fire had guttered out and Bronze Yohn Royce had brained him with a common mace.

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost . . . When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay.

Salla’s take on what just went on is much closer to the mark, imo.

“Yet how are men to see him, if he is at Storm’s End?”

Stannis drummed his fingers on the Painted Table. “It is a difficulty. One of many.” He raised his eyes. “You have more to say about the letter. Well, get on with it. I did not make you a knight so you could learn to mouth empty courtesies. I have my lords for that. Say what you would say, Davos.”

Davos bowed his head. “There was a phrase at the end. How did it go? Done in the Light of the Lord . . . ”

“Yes.” The king’s jaw was clenched.

“Your people will mislike those words.”

“As you did?” said Stannis sharply.

“If you were to say instead, Done in the sight of gods and men, or By the grace of the gods old and new . . . ”

“Have you gone devout on me, smuggler?”

“That was to be my question for you, my liege.”

“Was it now? It sounds as though you love my new god no more than you love my new maester.”

“I do not know this Lord of Light,” Davos admitted, “but I knew the gods we burned this morning. The Smith has kept my ships safe, while the Mother has given me seven strong sons.”

“Your wife has given you seven strong sons. Do you pray to her? It was wood we burned this morning.”

“That may be so,” Davos said, “but when I was a boy in Flea Bottom begging for a copper, sometimes the septons would feed me.”

“I feed you now.”

“You have given me an honored place at your table. And in return I give you truth. Your people will not love you if you take from them the gods they have always worshiped, and give them one whose very name sounds queer on their tongues.”

Stannis stood abruptly. “R’hllor. Why is that so hard? They will not love me, you say? When have they ever loved me? How can I lose something I have never owned?” He moved to the south window to gaze out at the moonlit sea. “I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.”

“If you do not believe in gods—”

“—why trouble with this new one?” Stannis broke in. “I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.”

Yes, but what sort of power? “Cressen had wisdom.”

“I trusted in his wisdom and your wiles, and what did they avail me, smuggler? The storm lords sent you packing. I went to them a beggar and they laughed at me. Well, there will be no more begging, and no more laughing either. The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it? There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships . . . and I have her. The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.

“When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was right.” Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea. “The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk.”

Stannis and Davos know each other well. One can tell the other is unhappy about something, or has something to say. And Stannis recognises Davos’ worth despite his low birth; it doesn’t matter to him. He has more respect (and even affection, I suspect) for Davos than he has for his equals. He trusts Davos more than he does anyone else – until he meets another character with whom he’ll bond, Jon Snow, a bastard. Again, this speaks volumes about Stannis to me.

And Davos is not afraid to speak his mind to Stannis. Respectfully, yes, but honestly nonetheless. He is wary of what he says at the inn because of who might be listening but he doesn’t have a problem saying things to Stannis that might very well be construed as disrespectful or inappropriate:

“Have you gone devout on me, smuggler?”

“That was to be my question for you, my liege.”

A quick side note: I’ve often wondered if the last line from the last quote has more to it than meets the eye. :wideeyed:

The loss of his parents has had a deep impact on Stannis. He is not an unfeeling cold hard bastard like so many like to make him out to be. I think a lot of the hardness we see in Stannis is a defence mechanism.

The story he tells Davos about Proudwing is very touching, imo.

I see Stannis as a shy and introverted boy, who saw his parents die and never really got much attention as Robert did, or affection as Renly probably did. He is the middle son, who doesn’t have a winning personality like his brothers.

Does anyone else find it interesting that while Robert and Renly are described as being very attractive men, Stannis isn’t? I find it telling that Martin chose to make him much plainer than his siblings; he’s thin, shorter, is balding... Even the gorgeous blue/green eyes that Robert and Renly have, when it comes to Stannis’ eyes the description is ‘two blue bruises’ iirc.

CONCLUSION:

I think there are three very important things we learn (or reinforce knowledge from the Prologue) about Stannis here.

• ·Stannis acknowledges worth regardless of birth or station; I cannot think of another high lord that acts quite like this.
  
• ·Stannis is not a cold unfeeling man; he has (several) issues, but being unfeeling is not one of them. Quite the opposite in fact.
  
• ·Stannis is not a true believer; he doesn’t care about religion, and he isn’t a R’hllorist. He simply recognises that Mel has some powers and he means to use them. To be fair, there aren’t many other options open to him.
  

ps: sorry about the delay and the convoluted post, guys. I'll do better next time.

[Blisscraft]

Well done, kissedbyfire! This is such a rich chapter. So many details that will echo throughout the rest of the story.

theguyfromthevale - I agree with you about the Cressen prologue. It's my favorite as well. Even though Stannis seems a little rough and unyielding in Cressen's POV, Cressen's real love for him carries forward. Cressen's feelings for Stannis create a presumption of sympathy that cannot be overcome within the chapter or later in the text.