What if Renly hadn't died?

[OberynBlackfyre]

I like to think that GRRM has specific reasoning for the people he kills within the series. But mostly, I don't think the series would have had THAT much of a greater twist or change in story if people like Ned, or possibly even Robb or Ygritte and such would have lived. Don't get me wrong the story would have been different, I just don't think it would have been EVERYTHING IS CHANGED OMG different.

The only person I think could do this by staying alive instead of dying is Renly.

Renly had the power of the South and the Storm Lords at his disposal. If he and Stannis did come to blows, I definitely think he would have decimated Stannis completely, if not capturing and killing him as well. Also, I think he would have had no problem marching upon Kings Landing, unless the Iron Throne FORCED Dorne to enter into the war soon enough to occupy the majority of Renly's forces in the South.....however that also means that Dorne would already HAD TO HAVE entered the war on the Iron Thrones side instead of them waiting it out....

All in all, how else do you think Renly being alive would have been a total game changer??

Disclaimer: this is all speculation and opinion so please people, keep it respectful.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

With Renly alive, there could have been an alliance with the North which means the Lannisters would be screwed. No RW and Cersei would be a faint red mark on one of the wall's of the Red Keep.

And Varys would still be attempting to undermine the whole thing.

[OberynBlackfyre]

With Renly alive, there could have been an alliance with the North which means the Lannisters would be screwed. No RW and Cersei would be a faint red mark on one of the wall's of the Red Keep.

And Varys would still be attempting to undermine the whole thing.

I think the RW STILL might have happened because of Robb still having to go West and then meeting the girl etc....it is true to think that Cersei may have died, or they would at least have had to flee, which is why I think GRRM HAD to kill off Renly, because he knew that if he were to live it would be a hard story to write since he could potentially kill many of the main characters

Edit: I don't think that Renly and Robb would have come to even thinking about a peace until Theon went and sacked Winterfell and "killed' Bran and Rickon

[Artos Stark]

Renly had to die, he had too easy of a road to gain the throne and hold it. He would have smashed Stannis, then finished his march to KL and smashed the Lannisters, at this point he could have made peace with the Starks and the series takes a major lull until the Dragons come.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think that's true, however how do we know the Lannisters wouldn't assassinate him in a way they did Robb Stark. What if while Renly is sieging Kings Landing, the Freys invite him to the wedding of Edmure and Roslin and then the Red Wedding has one more casualty! :o

[TheCrannogDweller]

Lannisters. Heads. Spikes. Walls.

[Hear Us Roar]

He would have killed Stannis.

Tyrell and Stormlords ally. Possibly even with North

Vale under LF joins the Lannisters.

Ironmen Join Lannisters to to avoid Northern reprisals.

Dorne stays out.

Tywin imports thousands of sell swords and Lannisters withdraw from Kings landing to the Westerlands

Riverlands already out of the war at this time for the most part, remnants remain with North forces.

War continues.

[James Arryn]

Vale under LF joins the Lannisters.

Do you recall how LF got the Vale?

[OberynBlackfyre]

He would have killed Stannis.

Tyrell and Stormlords ally. Possibly even with North

Vale under LF joins the Lannisters.

Ironmen Join Lannisters to to avoid Northern reprisals.

Dorne stays out.

Tywin imports thousands of sell swords and Lannisters withdraw from Kings landing to the Westerlands

Riverlands already out of the war at this time for the most part, remnants remain with North forces.

War continues.

The Vale wouldn't have joined the Lannisters because even before anything had happened, they were angered with Lysa Tully for her not joining the war effort on the side of Robb Stark.

I think Dorne would almost HAVE to join the war effort as the Tyrells dislike the Martells and maybe would even make a preemptive attack upon Dorne

[TheCrannogDweller]

Vale under LF joins the Lannisters.

Couple of problems here. Had Renly lived, the Battle of Blackwater Bay would've played out completely differently. Therefore, LF would not have been made Lord of Harrenhal, and would not have been able to marry Lysa and take over the Vale from the inside.

Besides, the alliance between Renly and Robb was all but done, and Lysa wouldn't have fought her own nephew.

And I don't see how Balon would've joined the Lannisters - he wanted to pay the iron price, which pretty much excluded any alliance with North, Westerlands or Reach.

ETA:

I think Dorne would almost HAVE to join the war effort as the Tyrells dislike the Martells and maybe would even make a preemptive attack upon Dorne

I don't agree with that. They might hate each other, but Doran has always been a cautios man - so I don't think that he would've called his banners for anything less than Daenerys' return to Westeros.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Couple of problems here. Had Renly lived, the Battle of Blackwater Bay would've played out completely differently. Therefore, LF would not have been made Lord of Harrenhal, and would not have been able to marry Lysa and take over the Vale from the inside.

Besides, the alliance between Renly and Robb was all but done, and Lysa wouldn't have fought her own nephew.

And I don't see how Balon would've joined the Lannisters - he wanted to pay the iron price, which pretty much excluded any alliance with North, Westerlands or Reach.

ETA:

I don't agree with that. They might hate each other, but Doran has always been a cautios man - so I don't think that he would've called his banners for anything less than Daenerys' return to Westeros.

I think Dorne would have gone to war whether Doran commanded it or not. we know that there is heavy unrest as it is, plus Oberyn would still have been alive and I think urged him to make a move, especially if they were in danger of being attacked.

[TheWildWolf]

If he hadn't died...

The Tyrells and his army would of completely destroyed Stannis' army. Then eventually take the Lannisters out, and then the Starks. Or, he would team up with the Starks to take out the Lannisters. Renly would then rule the kingdom, and it would be one big happy ending...

Daenery may return to Westeros, but Dorne wouldn't combine strengths with her in fear of losing the war. Renly's army then would probably take her out in a very bloody battle

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think Dorne would have gone to war whether Doran commanded it or not. we know that there is heavy unrest as it is, plus Oberyn would still have been alive and I think urged him to make a move, especially if they were in danger of being attacked.

Which they weren't because the army of the Reach was going north, not south. Dorne didn't have a stake in that war. If anything, it was the Lannisters Oberyn hated the most - and after them the Baratheons. Why pick a side, when you can just sit and watch them destroy each other?

[Light a wight tonight]

I think Dorne would have gone to war whether Doran commanded it or not. we know that there is heavy unrest as it is, plus Oberyn would still have been alive and I think urged him to make a move, especially if they were in danger of being attacked.

Dorne is weak militarily, as Doran admits. Dorne sits behind a mountain range and can be bottled up with a fairly small army and the Tyrrells have a big army. They have no shipping to get an army out by sea.

Dorne is unlikely to be much of a factor if they come in on the Lannister side.

[Lion of Judah]

If Renly didn't die and joined forces with Robb he would have sat the Iron throne.

[Lord Pegasus]

If Renly hadn't died he would have smashed stannis then smashed the remaining lannisters at KL but varys or littlefinger may have killed him or even lord Tywin may have just had a reenactment of the red wedding but at renly's coronation

[Minstral]

I'm not going to commit to the idea that we know the outcome of a battle that never occurred. Renly had the numbers in his favor and a tremendous advantage in heavy horse, but so did King Philip before the battle of Crecy. That battle saw heavy cavalry rendered useless when they charged the English position on unfavorable terrain, and he was defeated so totally that his vassals never again truly supported him. Moreover, choosing Loras as the commander of the Vanguard and ignoring the advice of Tarly was not a good idea. It's either the battle goes exactly as Renly thinks it will, or Stannis provokes him into a battle that bloodies himself in a way that would be damaging to his own (Renly's) prestige.

Or not. It never occurred so we really only have supposition.

[David Selig]

It's pretty simple really. Renly crushes Stannis, destroy the Lannisters, Robb gets his vengeance by proxy, realises fighting a much superior force would be stupid especially when he has to deal with the Ironborn and the Riverlands are undefended, so he bends the knee and accept Renly as his liege lord. Renly gives him some minor concessions for PR purposes.

[Melpomene]

In all honesty I feel that he would have died later anyhow. Outsmarted by a foe and die through backstabbing trickery, either via someone like Tywin or Varys/LF, face another assasination, or make a flashy mistake like getting himself killed while trying to lead a battle on horseback.

He was pretty, witty and a good talker, but don't think he was entirely wise or mature, nor entirely aware of the realities of war and gamemanship since he had a bout of self overestimation. Could see him getting tricked or succumbed through other means in the long run.

He would put up a good fight for a little while, have successes and make a short term difference in the plot, but otherwise he would likely fall nevertheless.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I'm not going to commit to the idea that we know the outcome of a battle that never occurred. Renly had the numbers in his favor and a tremendous advantage in heavy horse, but so did King Philip before the battle of Crecy. That battle saw heavy cavalry rendered useless when they charged the English position on unfavorable terrain, and he was defeated so totally that his vassals never again truly supported him. Moreover, choosing Loras as the commander of the Vanguard and ignoring the advice of Tarly was not a good idea. It's either the battle goes exactly as Renly thinks it will, or Stannis provokes him into a battle that bloodies himself in a way that would be damaging to his own (Renly's) prestige.

Or not. It never occurred so we really only have supposition.

I agree largely with your opinion and example of King Philip. Many think he would have lived, destroyed Stannis, then went along his merry way, however Stannis was a seasoned military commander, I don't see him going down without a fight, especially since Renly's army was not even blooded. I think Stannis would have bloodied him good, and maybe even taken out so much of Renly's army that it would therefore leave him crippled when it came time for him to march on KL