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(ADWD SPOILERS) after Bran 3, warging


Arya Nymeria Stark

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Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here goes...

We know after reading Bran's final chapter that he can warg into weirwood trees, which opens up possibilities for him...

FIRST...

We know he can travel into the past. I believe that with time and practice, he will eventually be able to travel into the future.

SECOND...

In our world, every religion has a place of worship. I believe the same goes for the world we know and love in the books. In the faith of the Seven, believers go to a local seven-sided Sept to pray to any of the seven Gods. In the faith of the Old Gods, believers go to the local Godswood, and pray to the Weirwood tree at the center. Therefore, I've concluded that the Godswood/Weirwood is the sacred place of worship for believers in the Old Gods. With that, I also believe that even if a Godswood/Weirwood (those south of the Neck) were taken down, the location might still possess some spirit of the Weirwood that was once there. If Bran can forge a strong enough connection with the Weirwoods, he might be able to tap into that collective spirit and see locations where Weirwoods no longer exist, but once did.

THIRD...

Remember when Bran saw his father cleaning his sword and he called out, and Ned heard him? There was also the scene in one of Theon's chapters when he thought he heard a voice coming from the tree. I think that with LOTS of practice, Bran might be able to control a Weirwood tree and talk to anyone in the vicinity.

What do y'all think? Will Bran take his warging abilities far beyond what we know so far?

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1. While we (in real life) can definately see the past (just by looking at distant stars), it doesn't mean we can see the future, too. I doubt Bran will be able to do it.

2. I've got impression that carved eyes in weirwood trees (and in other trees like those carved by wildlings near Mole Town) are the key element to "seeing". With the tree cut down there is no way to "see", just like taking away the sight.

3. As we have seen so far, ravens are better speakers than weirwood trees. Bran would do better to polish his raven warging abilities. The trees could serve just for creating the needed atmosphere (like - oh, the trees are speaking to me!)

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I think Bran's abilities to see into the past will extend beyond the immediate vicinity of weirwoods.As Bloodraven says,"but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

Jojen's greendreams are prophetic and since greenseeing is a more powerful gift perhaps Bran will be able to see into the future.

But I find the past more intriguing.The "secrets of the old gods.Truths the First Men knew,now forgotten in Winterfell.."The nature of the Pact,Bran the Builder,the Night's King,the Others,etc.

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I`m pretty sure the Old Gods are just dead greenseers. BR or Leaf (can`t remember) describes how the CoTF never had books, which is how men record knowledge, but instead when they died they would return to wood and root and stone and earth etc with all of their knowledge. The greenseers could then "talk" or "read" this knowledge, ie: seeing into the past via the weirwood network. They had no need for books because everything that everyone had ever done could be accessed at will. This is the knowledge that has been forgotten.

Also, Bloodraven stated that he would eventually be able to see beyond the trees, the weirwoods are merely a protocol of sorts to access the knowledge of all history.

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I don't know... To me that wouldn't make sense, since threes don't have vocal chords and therefore wouldn't be capable of articulated speech, and Martin has said he likes things to make sense.

Here's my take on it, from another thread (post #3):

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1. Bran can "travel" into past by seeing what weirwood tree has seen and hearing what tree had heard i.e. by reliving tree's memories. Since tree has not experienced the future, I don't see how Bran can.

3. But Bloodraven told Bran that all trees can to is move some branches or make some wind. They don't have mouth or tongue :P, so they can't speak. And I agree with kaaposc's idea that Bran should practice warging into ravens in order to communicate with other people. It's mentioned in ADWD that this was the ancient way of delivering messages in the time of COTF - instead of raven bringing the letter attached to its leg, warged raven would just speak the message.

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What about the Black Gate under the Nightfort? It's Weirwood and talks to Brother's of the Nights Watch. Although it has white eyes instead of red. If a door made from Weirwood can talk shouldn't a Weirwood tree, perhaps a technique long forgotten or something? Such as Jaqen placing his hand in the Weirwood tree's mouth at Harrenhal, thus allowing the tree to speak to people that way? I don't know, rambling here.

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I hope not, really. :stillsick:

While I would love to see that Bran's greenseer abilities could help him and his family surviving the Winter that is coming, I wouldn't like Bran to be able to see things in the future, or to change things in the past, this would make him godly powerful and it would interfere directly with every happening that asoiaf world ever had, always leading us (readers) to take everything granted for he and his desires - it would definetely ruin the plot line of the story!

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  • 1 month later...

There's no way for greenseers to see the future. The reason they can view the past is that the trees are so old that what we consider long spans of time are inconsequential to them, and they perceive it all almost simultaneously. Kind of like Dr. Manhattan's quantum perception, but limited up to the present.

It's almost the exact opposite of how time travel would work, at least via wormhole. If a time "portal" were established, you could send information and possibly objects back from the future (Great Scott!), but not to any point earlier than when the wormhole was created/activated. Weirwoods can access any point in time that they existed, but only up to the time when the greenseer is accessing them.

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I consider the Targaryan's to have "greendreams" in the Dunk and Egg tales and sometimes what they see comes true but it can be misread sometimes.

The woman with Beric and Arya shows insight on the future as well. Then Jojen has his dreams in a storm of swords. Basically I wouldn't rule it out to a aspect because if Jojen as a greenseer can see things in the future. Bran probably will have these too has a price like Jon and his wolf dreams. I think it's limited to dreams trees can't see what hasn't happened yet though.

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I agree with this to some degree. Not looking into the future, doubt that will be relevant. However Ned DOES hear him, as does Theon. Bloodraven says they can't but what if he just is weaker than Bran or like warging into a Human talking to past selfs isn't allowed for the ramifications of that. Imagine if he'd said something else to ned.

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Bran will most cvettainly be able to see the future. Bloodraven clearly can.

The difference is that while the greenseers can see the past perfectly through the eyes of the trees, the future is probably seen through more powerful version of Jojen's greensight - maybe as dreams or partial visions such as the Ghost of High Heart does for Arya. Not as clear as looking at the past, but still definitely possible to get snapshots of the future.

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I'd expand on it and say that I don't think the future is 'set in stone' so it would add to the uncertainty of the visions shown to the viewer. The future would definitely be more murky to predict.

BR's visions shown to Bran represented things that did end up happening, but the vibe I got of the last images shown was that these were things BR needed Bran's help to change.

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The past is set.( More or less..but I can't help noticing that the warnings issued to Bran by BR and Leaf have a decided preventative air.. as if they're not quite sure of what Bran would be able to do ... or maybe they're all too sure ;) ) .. In any case , it would be a very bad idea to try to communicate with people in the past. Best to dissuade him from trying . As he grows in understanding , he will know for himself the folly of trying to meddle with the past.

The future is not set and holds a number of possibilities , some more likely than others. Here there are no such warnings about non-interference, just doubts that clear ,direct communication will be possible. In this case , it seems the only restrictions lie in the power or abilities of the greenseer and the tools he has to work with .. dreams , ravens , weirwoods.

To me , it seems like Bran is proving to be particularly adept at communication through the trees .Perhaps BR's forte has more to do with dreams . Or perhaps it takes the power of two still more active or aware greenseers to accomplish direct communication.

I'm not sure if I think we'll see a weirwood speak ; maybe , but the Black Gate seems to work under a particular spell , repeating the same question and responses . As far as we know , it doesn't carry on conversations. It may be a magical automoton.

Greenseers can influence dreams when the person on the receiving end is in an altered state of consciousness. Until Theon at WF, we only see a person (such as Arya ) be aware of a rustling of the leaves, while certain thoughts or memories come to mind.. Theon , however , is not in a normal state of mind. His normal barriers and defenses have been broken down , so Bran and BR have an open wavelength , a clearer channel available in him.

In TWoW , if I had to predict what will happen

what will happen at the tree , I'd expect a sort of channeling session , with everyone else hearing Theon's side of a conversation with the tree ,or Theon relaying Bran and BR's information to them. Belief would only require Bran to include some bit of information that say, only Stannis would know , or something that was provable on the spot . I am expecting something to happen which will alter the best laid plans... and doubtless save Theon's life.

I don't think there will be actual skinchanging involving Theon .. but some other form of continuing dedication to Bran I could definitely see. A way for Theon to feel he could repay past transgressions.

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The past is set.( More or less..but I can't help noticing that the warnings issued to Bran by BR and Leaf have a decided preventative air.. as if they're not quite sure of what Bran would be able to do ... or maybe they're all too sure ;) ) .. In any case , it would be a very bad idea to try to communicate with people in the past. Best to dissuade him from trying . As he grows in understanding , he will know for himself the folly of trying to meddle with the past.

The future is not set and holds a number of possibilities , some more likely than others. Here there are no such warnings about non-interference, just doubts that clear ,direct communication will be possible. In this case , it seems the only restrictions lie in the power or abilities of the greenseer and the tools he has to work with .. dreams , ravens , weirwoods.

To me , it seems like Bran is proving to be particularly adept at communication through the trees .Perhaps BR's forte has more to do with dreams . Or perhaps it takes the power of two still more active or aware greenseers to accomplish direct communication.

I'm not sure if I think we'll see a weirwood speak ; maybe , but the Black Gate seems to work under a particular spell , repeating the same question and responses . As far as we know , it doesn't carry on conversations. It may be a magical automoton.

Greenseers can influence dreams when the person on the receiving end is in an altered state of consciousness. Until Theon at WF, we only see a person (such as Arya ) be aware of a rustling of the leaves, while certain thoughts or memories come to mind.. Theon , however , is not in a normal state of mind. His normal barriers and defenses have been broken down , so Bran and BR have an open wavelength , a clearer channel available in him.

In TWoW , if I had to predict what will happen

what will happen at the tree , I'd expect a sort of channeling session , with everyone else hearing Theon's side of a conversation with the tree ,or Theon relaying Bran and BR's information to them. Belief would only require Bran to include some bit of information that say, only Stannis would know , or something that was provable on the spot . I am expecting something to happen which will alter the best laid plans... and doubtless save Theon's life.

I don't think there will be actual skinchanging involving Theon .. but some other form of continuing dedication to Bran I could definitely see. A way for Theon to feel he could repay past transgressions.

Hard to see the future. Always in motion it is.

From one little green man living in a swamp to another we need some intel from Howland Reed.

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Donsfan10 ... I don't think you're rambling at all.. I've always been very intrigued by Jaqen placing his hand in the mouth of the weirwood when he swore by the gods to Arya. As a FM ( honouring all gods ) he may have known quite a bit about the rites and protocols of any number of gods.( The Red God , e.g.) We've seen a number of people in front of weirwoods , but not for that specific purpose.

When Theon is taken to the Tree ! ( as I feel sure he will be ) , he will almost certainly be asked questions , and may be required to swear by the Gods that his answers are truthful. If he has to place his hand in the mouth of the tree , what has already been a fairly strong connection between him and Bran may be increased dramatically.

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