Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Angalin

This Small Question Thing

Recommended Posts

Maybe it's just because there aren't a lot of other suitable candidates for the title, so it's a foregone conclusion that Jaime would succeed to it?

Why wouldn't there be suitable candidates? There isn't exactly a dearth of Lannisters out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In ACoK, Aya X (pg. 648 US Hardcover) we see the first signs of Roose Bolton's betrayal when he's speaking with some of the Freys about the war being lost with Winterfell's fall and Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater. He states that he is not a man to be undone and orders orders Helman Tallhart and Robbett Glover to march on Duskendale (stating that the order is from Robb but we later find out it's Bolton's way of bleeding the Northmen in his ranks)

I also assume during this time Bolton is communicating with Ramsay, who's back at the Dreadfort rallying troops to sack Winterfell, unbeknownst to Theon. Clearly the wheels are turning in Roose's mind, but has he brought the Freys in yet? Has Lord Tywin written Roose yet? We know that in the first Tyrion chapter in ASoS we see Tywin wirtting letters, telling Tyrion some wars can be won with quills and parchment. I always assumed he was writing Walder Frey, but it could have been Bolton. Any thoughts?

Later in the same Arya chapter, when she's talking to Elmar Frey (who she's actually engaged to, unbeknownst to both of them) Elmar says, "We’ve been dishonored. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else." I assume they're talking about Robb marrying Jayne at the Crag. How would word have reached the Freys at Harrenhal before Riverrun. The timeline seems off to me. Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why wouldn't there be suitable candidates? There isn't exactly a dearth of Lannisters out there.

Maybe it's just because there aren't a lot of other suitable candidates isn't a better Lannister candidate for the title, so it's a foregone conclusion that Jaime would succeed to it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it's just because there aren't a lot of other suitable candidates isn't a better Lannister candidate for the title, so it's a foregone conclusion that Jaime would succeed to it?

I find it hard to believe that among all the Lannisters in existence, not one of them qualified for the job except for Jaime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it hard to believe that among all the Lannisters in existence, not one of them qualified for the job except for Jaime.

I think custom/tradition dictates that the head of the most prominent house succeeds to the title of Warden. In Jaime's case, either though he cannot inherit Casterly Rock, there is no Lannister so much more qualified that it would make sense to defy that tradition. Especially, when in peacetime, the title is only an honorary one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think custom/tradition dictates that the head of the most prominent house succeeds to the title of Warden. In Jaime's case, either though he cannot inherit Casterly Rock, there is no Lannister so much more qualified that it would make sense to defy that tradition. Especially, when in peacetime, the title is only an honorary one.

Okay, but in that case, the title would be bestowed upon him. He wouldn't be inheriting it, which is what Ned is saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, but in that case, the title would be bestowed upon him. He wouldn't be inheriting it, which is what Ned is saying.

Okay, but he's not inheriting it from Tywin, in the same sense that he would inherit Casterly Rock. It's a custom/tradition that the head of the house succeeds to the title but only at the pleasure of the king. It seems it can be taken away and given back if the king so deems it, so really the king is bestowing the title by allowing the succession.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, but he's not inheriting it from Tywin, in the same sense that he would inherit Casterly Rock. It's a custom/tradition that the head of the house succeeds to the title but only at the pleasure of the king. It seems it can be taken away and given back if the king so deems it, so really the king is bestowing the title by allowing the succession.

I'm not seeing any meaningful difference here. There's still the question of why it is assumed Jaime will inherit the title. The fact that it's all at the pleasure of the king doesn't really change much. Technically all inheritance is at the pleasure of the king, including the inheritance for Casterly Rock. If he wanted to, the king could disinherit all the Lannisters with a pen stroke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way Ned describes it, it comes across as an automatic thing. In other words, the head of the house that usually holds the title automatically succeeds to it, unless the king intervenes and gives it to someone else.

If Ned said that Robert would one day give the Warden of the West title to Jaime, I wouldn't have an issue with any of this. It's his statement that Jaime will one day succeed to that honor that raises eyebrows.

I think its just that everyone has gotten so used to the Lannisters being the real power behind the throne, and ignoring rules and customs as they see fit, that they just expect Jaime to inherit everything from Tywin despite the rules.

Jaime was heir to everything of Tywins and Tywin has refused name another heir. Its obvious Tywin isn't going to let Tyrion inherit anything much. And Cersei is out, as a woman, and Queen (and Baratheon). And Jaime - well he's the KG who murdered his own King. If he can break that rule/oath without it bothering anyone, well he's not going to have much trouble breaking the inheritance rules/oath either now, is he? Especially not with the Lannisters (Tywin/Cersei) ruling everything through Robert's apathetic ineptitude.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its just that everyone has gotten so used to the Lannisters being the real power behind the throne, and ignoring rules and customs as they see fit, that they just expect Jaime to inherit everything from Tywin despite the rules.

But if that's the case, then why is everyone so shocked at Barristan's dismissal? Releasing a knight of the Kingsguard from his vows had never once happened before that, and when it did happen, it's treated as a radical move. This doesn't really make sense if everyone was expecting Jaime to be released from his vows.

Moreover, Ned doesn't make any mention of Jaime being released from his vows before succeeding to the title. He simply says that Jaime will inherit it by virtue of being Tywin's son. He says it so casually, and without contradiction from Robert, that it comes across as the normal state of affairs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not seeing any meaningful difference here. There's still the question of why it is assumed Jaime will inherit the title. The fact that it's all at the pleasure of the king doesn't really change much. Technically all inheritance is at the pleasure of the king, including the inheritance for Casterly Rock. If he wanted to, the king could disinherit all the Lannisters with a pen stroke.

True enough. Since the conversation concerning Jaime occurred during the discussion of naming Robert Arryn as Warden of the East, I think we are supposed to assume that the tradition/custom of the head of the house succeeding to the title can be set aside, if that candidate seems unsuitable for whatever reason. It's really a hypothetical discussion concerning Jaime and the title of the East and the West, because nobody expects Tywin to vacate the position anytime soon.

There would be no reason to pass over Jaime for another Lannister.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There would be no reason to pass over Jaime for another Lannister.

When it comes to inheriting the title, the reason for bypassing him is that the title is supposed to fall to the head of House Lannister. Since Jaime is not the future head of House Lannister, he can't inherit it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When it comes to inheriting the title, the reason for bypassing him is that the title is supposed to fall to the head of House Lannister. Since Jaime is not the future head of House Lannister, he can't inherit it.

Where is it stated that it is supposed to fall to the head of House Lannister. Its a courtesy/honor,its just a title its not as if he is inheriting anything physical. Now he is the one who rallies the banners, not the Lord of Casterly Rock. All inheriting the title does is give him command of more people. The KG is like the NW in that the may not hold no lands or have no wife. But nothing about not being allowed to hold a title

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, but he's not inheriting it from Tywin, in the same sense that he would inherit Casterly Rock. It's a custom/tradition that the head of the house succeeds to the title but only at the pleasure of the king. It seems it can be taken away and given back if the king so deems it, so really the king is bestowing the title by allowing the succession.

I agree with this. I think custom and tradition guide the selection of the Warden but the king can make a change if he wants.

On a related question, I have wondered why the Tyrells are Wardens of the South. I guess when Aegon the Conqueror set up the Wardens he wanted to give honors to different houses and he made Orys Barratheon Hand, he made the first Tyrell "Warden of the South" and he did not have to worry about Dorne. But this seems like a plum for the Tyrells in later years -- the Barratheons and the Martellls are in the South but if there is a war they are subservient to the Tyrells. I wonder if the Warden of the South title has ever changed from one house to another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

` Although it's an honorary title during peacetime, I can't imagine anyone other than the Lord Paramount holding the title. Except for maybe in special cases like Sweetrobin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where is it stated that it is supposed to fall to the head of House Lannister.

That's how it always happens. The title customarily falls to the head of a particular house.

Its a courtesy/honor,its just a title its not as if he is inheriting anything physical. Now he is the one who rallies the banners, not the Lord of Casterly Rock. All inheriting the title does is give him command of more people. The KG is like the NW in that the may not hold no lands or have no wife. But nothing about not being allowed to hold a title

Yes, I know his vows don't forbid him from holding a title. I was the first person to say that in this very thread. My issue is with the notion that he would inherit the title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When it comes to inheriting the title, the reason for bypassing him is that the title is supposed to fall to the head of House Lannister. Since Jaime is not the future head of House Lannister, he can't inherit it.

It's supposed to but we know it doesn't always. I still think it's to be viewed more as a tradition than as an actual inheritance.

Do we have any other examples of a KG member and a similar type of situation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's how it always happens. The title customarily falls to the head of a particular house.

Yes, I know his vows don't forbid him from holding a title. I was the first person to say that in this very thread. My issue is with the notion that he would inherit the title.

Why does it have to be the head of the house. I mean Jamie is still a Lannister.

Also if Tywin is his predecessor then Jamie would inherit the title. Being the next to take it as all see him to do. So maybe its just people belive that Jamie will be named the next warden of the west, so therefor he would inherit it just like he inherited the warden of the east from Jon Arryn

I think inherit is not being use as in inheritance, but as next to take over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we have any other examples of a KG member and a similar type of situation?

Not that I'm aware of. I'd guess it's rather rare for a prospective head of a house to become a member of the Kingsguard.

Why does it have to be the head of the house. I mean Jamie is still a Lannister.

It doesn't have to be, not if the title is bestowed upon Jaime. But typically, the title is passed down from one generation to the next, from the previous lord of the house to the next lord of the house. That's why Lysa demanded the title for her son. It was the customary thing to do.

Also if Tywin is his predecessor then Jamie would inherit the title. Being the next to take it as all see him to do. So maybe its just people belive that Jamie will be named the next warden of the west, so therefor he would inherit it just like he inherited the warden of the east from Jon Arryn

That's not the same thing as inheritance/succession. And again, Ned is treating it as something that will automatically happen once Tywin dies. He makes no mention of Robert giving the title to Jaime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not that I'm aware of. I'd guess it's rather rare for a prospective head of a house to become a member of the Kingsguard.

It doesn't have to be, not if the title is bestowed upon Jaime. But typically, the title is passed down from one generation to the next, from the previous lord of the house to the next lord of the house. That's why Lysa demanded the title for her son. It was the customary thing to do.

That's not the same thing as inheritance/succession. And again, Ned is treating it as something that will automatically happen once Tywin dies. He makes no mention of Robert giving the title to Jaime.

Whats not the same??Taking over a position previously held by someone else whomever may hold it is to inherit the position..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×