R+L=J v.34

[Lady Octarina]

Err but you accept Jon was conceived a few months into the rebellion (if you concede R+L=J) this is about the same time Ned would be passing through the islands. Give or take a few months which is acceptable to create a little bit of questioning around it yet believable.

Not really; according to Lord Godric, Jon's conception would have happened shortly after Brandon and Rickard were killed, when Aerys called for Ned's and Robert's heads - therefore, before they called their bannermen, before the rebellion officially started. The woman would have helped Ned escape from the Vale and get to the North - so, Jon would be months older than Robb, and yet Ned claims he is younger and people seem to believe in that - which wouldn't be possible seeing how Jon would be bigger than Robb if that was the case.

Fair point. Wylla may well have been there already for some reason. However talking to Ashara and taking her into his confidence is adding to the risk of someone finding out. It would still be safer adding no one else into the circle. Plus what happens to Wylla:

There is the possibility that Ashara already knew about Jon being Lyanna's son - Arthur may have taken her to be a companion to Lyanna, for example, and there is the possibility that Jon wasn't in the Tower of Joy when Ned found Lyanna, that at some point in the previous days, after they heard of what happened in King's Landing, they thought the child would be safer inside Starfall's walls and sent him there. Then, Ned saying he went there simply to return Dawn to the Daynes would be a way to cover up his true purpose: getting his nephew.

But even if Ashara didn't know a thing, he would still have a good reason for going to Starfall: to catch a boat that could take them North. The journey through sea would go smoother with a newborn than one on horses; also, it's likely they would be safer in a boat: less people would see them, not to mention that, right after wars, there are remains of the broken army around, acting like bandits, so...

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Not really; according to Lord Godric, Jon's conception would have happened shortly after Brandon and Rickard were killed, when Aerys called for Ned's and Robert's heads - therefore, before they called their bannermen, before the rebellion officially started. The woman would have helped Ned escape from the Vale and get to the North - so, Jon would be months older than Robb, and yet Ned claims he is younger and people seem to believe in that - which wouldn't be possible seeing how Jon would be bigger than Robb if that was the case.

Actually falls in. If you follow the R+L=J canon at this point R and L have been together for several months at this point. After all B&Rickard have already ridden to Kings Landing, complained and been killed. Essentially if you accept the timing works for R+L=J then this already throws the timing of Catelyn's belief of the timing of Jon's conception into doubt if he's L+Rs son. Arguably something Ned tells her just to make her a little happier. Plus Catelyn's belief is thrown into doubt by GRRMs email. We know Jon is born within 1 month of the sacking of Kings Landing which falls within the possibility of the fishermans daughter being Jon's Mum. Plus it seems a weird story to be generated from no where.

There is the possibility that Ashara already knew about Jon being Lyanna's son - Arthur may have taken her to be a companion to Lyanna, for example, and there is the possibility that Jon wasn't in the Tower of Joy when Ned found Lyanna, that at some point in the previous days, after they heard of what happened in King's Landing, they thought the child would be safer inside Starfall's walls and sent him there. Then, Ned saying he went there simply to return Dawn to the Daynes would be a way to cover up his true purpose: getting his nephew.

But even if Ashara didn't know a thing, he would still have a good reason for going to Starfall: to catch a boat that could take them North. The journey through sea would go smoother with a newborn than one on horses; also, it's likely they would be safer in a boat: less people would see them, not to mention that, right after wars, there are remains of the broken army around, acting like bandits, so...

Yep I get the whole if Jon was in Starfall already then you go to pick up your nephew. However this falls down. If the Kingsguard are at the Tower of Joy to protect 'Jon' as the next in line to the throne and 'Jon' is in Starfall as it's safer what's the Kingsguard still doing at the ToJ?

Even then yep it's a quick way to go North by boat so maybe Ned goes there for that. However the quick way to go just buy a goat/hire a wet nurse and jump the next ship out of town/hide out in secret until the next boat is available. Not go to a woman he may or may not be in love with, confess all, hang around for a bit (certainly enough to create rumours), even if she knows you just get out of town first thing to get safe back to your home territory. For me there is enough to be certain Ashara definitely has a bigger role to play.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Equally can I add that any reference to 'Wylla may have been there, Ashara may have known, so and so may have been here/known that' for the most part is completely unfounded explanation. Not that a lot of the stuff I've suggested may have happened is any less completely unfounded explanation just once you've got down to that level it could be anything.

[Lord Rahvin]

I believe Ned confided in Ashara because, if it ever became nessecary to explain a "purple eyed bastard in Winterfell", well he's half Dayne. Ned would never dishonor Ashara, not without speaking to her first, involving her in the plan, after all she was a Targ loyalist.

[Dragonfish]

OK the point being that (if this theory is correct and to be honest it's not one I actually believe myself) Aerys ordered them to stay there and kill Lyanna should anyone come and get her. They'd follow it as they were ordered to by the King and the King's guard follow the King's orders first and foremost.

No, the Kingsguard would protect the king first and foremost. It is pointed out in the books on at least two occasions that protecting their king is their first duty. Whatever order Aerys gave them, that surely would have been overruled by their duty to protect Viserys.

Which would point more towards R+L=J being wrong

No, it wouldn't. The entire theory is founded on the idea that Ned is lying about Jon's parentage. Calling Jon "son" out loud is perfectly consistent with that lie.

What we're discussing is the fact that Ned never calls Jon his son in his own mind. Your proposed explanation that Ned doesn't call him son because he thinks of him as a bastard instead of a son doesn't work, precisely because Ned does call him son out loud,

Err but you accept Jon was conceived a few months into the rebellion (if you concede R+L=J) this is about the same time Ned would be passing through the islands.

No, Ned passed through the islands at the very beginning of the war. He married Cat a few months into the war.

And in any case, my point is that Ned has no reason to lie about when Jon was conceived, unless it's because his parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's entirely possible that Jon wasn't actually conceived after Ned married Cat, but it makes no sense for Ned to lie about that fact under any other theory.

OK Ashara is mentioned in the email. However she is mentioned in very small passing way

'I will spare you the rest of my speculations about the date of Jon's birth, since their only real conclusion is that Catelyn seems a little thick when she thinks that Ned fathered Jon as he returned 'Dawn' to Ashara Dayne.'

That's not really mentioning it "in passing." The questioner is explaining that their entire reason for posing the question is to establish whether or not Ashara could possibly be the mother, given the timing of Jon's birth. George is simply letting the questioner know that Ashara was not in Starfall all the time, thus leaving open the possibility of her being the mother, even knowing the timing of Jon's birth.

To state it again it's not that I don't accept that R+L=J works, it does. It's just I'm open to other possibilities and am not completely convinced by it. Proving that arguments against don't follow through (a la burnt hand, dire wolf and looks etc.) doesn't prove its true.

I never claimed to be proving that it's true. I'm simply pointing out that your attempts to poke holes in it don't hold up, and your own alternative theories have their own holes.

[callmedodge]

I`m not a huge fan of this theory, but I also don`t know much about it. Is there anything at all to suggest that Ned and Ashara didn`t have a child, whether that child is Jon or not?

[Ygrain]

Bear Island Bruiser: I'd like to pose the Apple Martini test question. If Jon is just the bastard son of Ned Stark and some noble or common woman, then why is it so necessary to keep the identity of the mother super secret, especially from Cat, his wife? If Ned keeps it secret to protect the honor of the mother (silly idea, considering Ashara is dead and there are already rumors about her being the mother and a commoner wouldn't be dishonored by mothering the bastard of a High Lord), then why doesn't he just make up a name? Why not just go with his Robert stand-by of "Someone named Wylla"? Why is Robert the only person Ned will offer the name to if the mother is just some fisherman's daughter?

Because Robert

1) knows Ned never bedded Ashara at Harrenhall

2) knows Ned never got anywhere close to Ashara during the war, therefore can't possibly have fathered Jon on her

3) Robert is the only one with authority to demand an answer from Ned

Could be either or all three combined :-)

Actually falls in. If you follow the R+L=J canon at this point R and L have been together for several months at this point. After all B&Rickard have already ridden to Kings Landing, complained and been killed. Essentially if you accept the timing works for R+L=J then this already throws the timing of Catelyn's belief of the timing of Jon's conception into doubt if he's L+Rs son. Arguably something Ned tells her just to make her a little happier. Plus Catelyn's belief is thrown into doubt by GRRMs email. We know Jon is born within 1 month of the sacking of Kings Landing which falls within the possibility of the fishermans daughter being Jon's Mum. Plus it seems a weird story to be generated from no where.

Is there actually a quote that Catelyn thinks Jon was conceived during Ned's trip to Starfall? As far as I know, there isn't. IMHO, she thinks Ned and Ashara had a thing during the rebellion, and Ned used the "return the Dawn" as a way to say one last goodbye to his old love (and perhaps also, you know, one last time).

Not really. Ned escapes from the Vale via the Sisters, goes to the North to call his banners, goes South again, marries Catelyn and conceives Robb. That gives very little leeway to Jon's age, as he has to be plausibly younger than Robb - with children that young, a couple of months makes a huge difference, not necessarily in size/weight but abilities, which are age-specific. And, above all: if fisherman's daughter is Jon's mom, then he was conceived BEFORE Ned married Catelyn, therefore he dishonoured neither her nor himself - only he specifically claims he did. Why, then?

Yep I get the whole if Jon was in Starfall already then you go to pick up your nephew. However this falls down. If the Kingsguard are at the Tower of Joy to protect 'Jon' as the next in line to the throne and 'Jon' is in Starfall as it's safer what's the Kingsguard still doing at the ToJ?

This is all, of course, mere speculation, but not entirely without meirt. KG's first and foremost duty is to protect the king. However, what protects the newborn king best now is the fact that almost no-one in Westeros is aware of his existence. If the KG moved over to Starfall, their presence would eventually leak and people would necessarily ask what they were doing there. Similarly, if anyone saw Lyanna, they would found out that she had given birth. The only way the KG may protect the king now is not be with him, and not let anyone close to Lyanna. Thus they would not be in the king's presence and yet keep the spirit of their vow.

Even then yep it's a quick way to go North by boat so maybe Ned goes there for that. However the quick way to go just buy a goat/hire a wet nurse and jump the next ship out of town/hide out in secret until the next boat is available. Not go to a woman he may or may not be in love with, confess all, hang around for a bit (certainly enough to create rumours), even if she knows you just get out of town first thing to get safe back to your home territory. For me there is enough to be certain Ashara definitely has a bigger role to play.

Honour. Returning dawn and confessing being the one who killed Arthur is the honourable thing to do, a duty which cannot be avoided. Ned had HR with him and there is no way HR couldn't be on it - they could have split, HR did all those things which had to be arranged in secrecy, while Lord Eddard did as duty and honour compelled him, and no-one saw him with a child.

I`m not a huge fan of this theory, but I also don`t know much about it. Is there anything at all to suggest that Ned and Ashara didn`t have a child, whether that child is Jon or not?

You may want to check the links in Dr. Pepper's post on the first page of this thread.

A condensed version, if you wish: If they did have a child, it couldn't be Jon, since the date of his birth (specified by GRRM) sets the date of his conception into the Rebellion, when Ned definitely didn't hang out with Ashara. If Ned, who was too shy to ask Ashara for a dance, did become so bold a couple of days later as to bed her at Harrenhall, their child was that supposedly still-born daughter Barristan mentions. However, given the respect Barristan has for Ned, and Ned's own principles, I doubt this was the case.

[callmedodge]

You may want to check the links in Dr. Pepper's post on the first page of this thread.

A condensed version, if you wish: If they did have a child, it couldn't be Jon, since the date of his birth (specified by GRRM) sets the date of his conception into the Rebellion, when Ned definitely didn't hang out with Ashara. If Ned, who was too shy to ask Ashara for a dance, did become so bold a couple of days later as to bed her at Harrenhall, their child was that supposedly still-born daughter Barristan mentions. However, given the respect Barristan has for Ned, and Ned's own principles, I doubt this was the case.

Ah, cool. I`ll check those links out so. Yeah, Ashara danced with 3 or 4 people that night, I`d imagine it was someone else, not Ned.

[Lord of the Tower]

something struck me as strange while reading GoT,this may have been mentioned before, I dont have the page but I think it was with his meeting with Robert in the crypts, I remember Ned internally saying he hadnt thought of Rhaegar in years. He raised Jon,seen him nearly everyday,if Rhaegar was his father wouldnt Ned have been reminded of that constantly and be like hey he kinda has Rhaegars ears or he swings his sword as graceful as his old man. Maybe Ned just had to go in complete denial,lie to himself and truly live his promise.. :dunno:

[Draxus]

Are there any good threads about Lyanna possibly being Young Griffs mother? Or any theories put forward of Lyanna perhaps having more than one child? Maybe she had both Young Griff and John? I'm just plain curious.

[Black Wolf Smith]

IMO, I think if anything Ned thinks of Jon as his sisters child, when he let himself think about it. He most likely stopped doing that a long time ago.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Are there any good threads about Lyanna possibly being Youn Griffs mother¹? Or any theories put forward of Lyanna perhaps having more than one child²? Maybe she had both Young Griff and John²? I'm just plain curious.

1 I am sure there have been threads like that, you can search the site.

2. I think it was late R+L=J 31 & early 32 had the twins, and triple theories on a lot.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Many of the Great Bastards did not have Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

I'm still really skeptical about this...

Because, in my opinion, both the main plot in AGOT (I mean the book) and the War of Five Kings are based on a single line: the seed is strong.

if Jon was a Targ, that line would lose most of its sense, and to me all Martin's saga would lose a lot of its credibility. It's a matter of coherence.

Do we have to assume that Jon Arryn was a fool?

Then maybe Tommen is really Robert's son (they slept in the same bed for 17 years, maybe one night he was drunk and Cersey doesn't remember or she's ashamed and doesn't want to tell anybody what happened). Maybe one of Cat's Children is Littlefinger's... Maybe Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's! Anyone could be anyone's child, if the seed isn't strong... so secret Targs everywhere (what a nightmare) and plenty of crackpot theories.

Why there's so much hype around Aegon? bacause he has Targ features, and that's the way it's got to be.

Because the seed is strong.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

2) knows Ned never got anywhere close to Ashara during the war, therefore can't possibly have fathered Jon on her

Do we know this? Again a lot of people go around saying 'oh well Ashara was in Starfall and Ned only went there at the end'. Well we do know that Ned never went to Starfall but has anyone thought about Ashara? We know she didn't just stay in Starfall from GRRM's email. Equally we know that at some point she was Elia's companion at Kings Landing and again at some point she left. So how about this for a theory WARNING MASSIVE SPECULATION WITH NO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP COMING UP

Brandon and Rickard are killed at Kings Landing. We know that Rickard, as head of the family, will be carrying Ice with him. So this leaves the sword at Kings Landing. At some point and for some reason Ashara leaves Kings Landing taking Ice with her and delivers it to Ned. At that point Ned sleeps with Ashara (easily works for Wylla as well). Ashara then rides off to Starfall figuring it's best not to head back to Kings Landing given what she's done and how nuts Aerys. So when Ned returns Dawn he's sort of returning the favour to Ashara.

Now OK I've seen nothing to say that Ned didn't just fight with a different sword all the way through the rebellion and this is a possibility. However there has to be a reason why Ashara is not in Kings Landing, with Elia, when the sack happens.

[Ygrain]

I'm still really skeptical about this...

Because, in my opinion, both the main plot in AGOT (I mean the book) and the War of Five Kings are based on a single line: the seed is strong.

if Jon was a Targ, that line would lose most of its sense, and to me all Martin's saga would lose a lot of its credibility. It's a matter of coherence.

Do we have to assume that Jon Arryn was a fool?

Then maybe Tommen is really Robert's son (they slept in the same bed for 17 years, maybe one night he was drunk and Cersey doesn't remember or she's ashamed and doesn't want to tell anybody what happened). Maybe one of Cat's Children is Littlefinger's... Maybe Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's! Anyone could be anyone's child, if the seed isn't strong... so secret Targs everywhere (what a nightmare) and plenty of crackpot theories.

Why there's so much hype around Aegon? bacause he has Targ features, and that's the way it's got to be.

Because the seed is strong.

The "seed id strong" is basically an empiric proof of dark colour being dominant over light. Dark-haired Robert slept with many light-haired women but not once produced a light-haired bastard, while his light-haired wife gave birth to three light-haired children.

Light colour gene is recessive and the trait becomes manifest only in the absence of the dominant gene, i.e. when the person inherits a recessive copy from each parent (homozygous recessive pairing). In turn, this person passes only a recessive copy to their children, whose colouring then depends on the copy they inherit from the other parent - if it's recessive (from Jaime), they are also light-haired (again, homozygous recessive pairing), if dominant (Robert), they are dark-haired (heterozygous pairing, with the dominant gene overriding the recessive). A dark-haired person with heterozygous pairing can produce either dark-haired or light-haired children, depending on which copy of his genes enters the lotery, but since Robert never produced a single light-haired child, his own makeup must have been homozygous dominant pairing, and had he fathered a single child on Cersei, it would have had to be dark-haired, as well.

Now, Rhaegar, Elia and their children. Rhaegar, light hair, homozygous recessive, combined with Elia, whose Martell look requires at least one dominant copy, but the Targ blood in the family allows for the existence of the recessive gene, as well - and really, these two produce a dark-haired Rhaenys who inherited the dominant copy from Elia, and light-haired Aegon, who inherited the recessive one.

So, if Rhaegar already sired a child who inherited the mother's looks, why should it be so weird that Jon took after Lyanna, who was dark-haired, as well? It does not contradict "the seed is strong", it follows the principle.

Do we know this? Again a lot of people go around saying 'oh well Ashara was in Starfall and Ned only went there at the end'. Well we do know that Ned never went to Starfall but has anyone thought about Ashara? We know she didn't just stay in Starfall from GRRM's email. Equally we know that at some point she was Elia's companion at Kings Landing and again at some point she left. So how about this for a theory WARNING MASSIVE SPECULATION WITH NO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP COMING UP

Brandon and Rickard are killed at Kings Landing. We know that Rickard, as head of the family, will be carrying Ice with him. So this leaves the sword at Kings Landing. At some point and for some reason Ashara leaves Kings Landing taking Ice with her and delivers it to Ned. At that point Ned sleeps with Ashara (easily works for Wylla as well). Ashara then rides off to Starfall figuring it's best not to head back to Kings Landing given what she's done and how nuts Aerys. So when Ned returns Dawn he's sort of returning the favour to Ashara.

Now OK I've seen nothing to say that Ned didn't just fight with a different sword all the way through the rebellion and this is a possibility. However there has to be a reason why Ashara is not in Kings Landing, with Elia, when the sack happens.

A sword for a sword, I rather like the symmetry :-)

However, your theory would require that Ashara gave birth to two children: one conceived at Harrenhall (or else Barristan's musing how she might have looked to him and not to Stark when she was dishonoured doesn't make sense), and the other conceived by Ned during the Rebellion, when he is already married to Catelyn and would truly break his vows - which I can't see him doing, and then it is very peculiar that he lies about it to Robert who was supposed to be closer to him than a brother at that time.

BTW, how did Ashara get to Ned without anyone noticing? Because, if you recall, when Harwin tells Arya about Ashara, he mentions only Harrenhall, nothing else. Also, a sudden appearance of Ice should cause some surprise (though we really do not know if Rickard took his ancestral blade along when he was summoned - purely IMHO, taking such a sword with you when you are summoned to answer for your son's crime may not be a good idea).

One last thing: Ashara probably wasn't Elia's maid ever since her pregnancy became known - a dishonoured girl can hardly hold a position of honour.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

A sword for a sword, I rather like the symmetry :-)

However, your theory would require that Ashara gave birth to two children: one conceived at Harrenhall (or else Barristan's musing how she might have looked to him and not to Stark when she was dishonoured doesn't make sense), and the other conceived by Ned during the Rebellion, when he is already married to Catelyn and would truly break his vows - which I can't see him doing, and then it is very peculiar that he lies about it to Robert who was supposed to be closer to him than a brother at that time.

BTW, how did Ashara get to Ned without anyone noticing? Because, if you recall, when Harwin tells Arya about Ashara, he mentions only Harrenhall, nothing else. Also, a sudden appearance of Ice should cause some surprise (though we really do not know if Rickard took his ancestral blade along when he was summoned - purely IMHO, taking such a sword with you when you are summoned to answer for your son's crime may not be a good idea).

One last thing: Ashara probably wasn't Elia's maid ever since her pregnancy became known - a dishonoured girl can hardly hold a position of honour.

It doesn't require 2 pregnancies as we're not completely sure that she got pregnant at Harrenhal. Equally I think there is enough time between Harrenhal and the war for 2 pregnancies (think it's a year between the tourney and Lyanna's 'abduction'). So it is possible. I mean it seems strange that Barristan thinks she committed suicide partly because of the grief of losing her child. Well the child is supposed to be a stillborn girl and if she was impregnated at Harrenhal this would have happened before/just at the start of Robert's rebellion. So she rides out the depression for about a year before it becomes too much? Hmmm

I take your point that she may have been dismissed if she did get pregnant at Harrenhal and that's when she went to Starfall. However GRRM says she definitely didn't stay there throughout the rebellion and she would make an excellent go between the lines.

As for Ned breaking his vows to Catelyn well he did say he did and that's where Jon came from (OK yes we all accept it could be otherwise). Saying you can't see Ned doing it falls down as he says he has himself. Equally he only just married Cat and was in love with Ashara (possibly) for years. Given the kind of emotion that seeing his (possible) ex-lover bringing him his family sword it's entirely possible that even the noble Ned slipped the vows he gave to his wife he only just married and did so more out of duty that love. Plus he has a mans needs (as Catelyn puts it). Yeah it seems a bit strange about why he'd lie to Robert about it and name Wylla but this line of thinking works equally well as a reason of when they hooked up during the rebellion.

Equally yeah there's nothing to say that Rickard took Ice with him when he was summoned to Kings Landing but people seem to take these family swords with them everywhere, there was nothing to say he was going to be killed at Kings Landing and he elected trial by combat, when he'd want his sword with him. There is also nothing to say he left it behind and why would he leave it at Winterfell with the only Stark there being Benjen?

[FrozenFire3]

something struck me as strange while reading GoT,this may have been mentioned before, I dont have the page but I think it was with his meeting with Robert in the crypts, I remember Ned internally saying he hadnt thought of Rhaegar in years. He raised Jon,seen him nearly everyday,if Rhaegar was his father wouldnt Ned have been reminded of that constantly and be like hey he kinda has Rhaegars ears or he swings his sword as graceful as his old man. Maybe Ned just had to go in complete denial,lie to himself and truly live his promise.. :dunno:

Nope, the passage you are referring to is not until much later in the first book. Ned is talking to Littlefinger after their visit to the brothel:

'For the first time in year, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.' (GoT pag. 381 mass market paperback)

But only a few pages before (pag. 356, Ned's previous point of view):

'Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion...'

It could very well be a little 'plot hole' or a writer's slip but to me it seems Rhaegar is much more present in Robert's thoughts than he would like to admit. Not to mention all the times Robert makes sure he does not forget :lol:

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Oh as for how did Ashara get to Ned without anyone noticing who's to say no one noticed? The only POV character who would be involved in this meeting would be Ned. Given that he was only around for the first book and all the other stuff going on it's entirely possible that he didn't think about it at that time.

Even if this isn't the case we've seen plenty of cases of people slipping into camps/cities unnoticed or disguised. Case in point is Barristan slipping back into Kings Landing dressed as a commoner. Entirely possible for Ashara to go to Ned's camp and enter it dressed as a camp follower (say taking the name of one of her servants say Wylla for example) and then get to see Ned. OK falls down a little as she'd have to be lunking a huge sword about which is pretty conspicuous but still possible.

It's also possible that he lied to Robert about Ashara as he doesn't want any more questions about it. He knows he's got to give a name to Big Bob so he chucks him one that will raise no further questions, a commoner. If he says Ashara it's more likely there will be follow up questions and if you follow through the logic that Ashara is in Essos with R+Ls kid the last thing Ned wants is Robert looking too closely at that relationship. (Yeah bit flimsy that one)

[Yippee Ki Yay]

Nice summary Dr Pepper, I'm also in the R+L=J camp.

In addition to your points I think it's no coincidence the the two great bastards who dont share 'classic Targ' features are both from families (Bracken and Blackwood) decended from the first men, i.e. Aegor Rivers (black hair) and Brynden River (Albino). The other 2 barstards Deamon Blackfyre and Shiera Seastar were from Targ and Valarian mothers. Steffon Baratheon, Son of Rhaelle Targ and an unknown Baratheon had black hair....as the seed is strong with Baratheon decendants.

Ned's has gone to great lengths to make the mother of Jon ambigous with his curt replies (they are not narrative), leading Robert Baratheon to think he was with Wylla and allowing Winterfell and Catalyn to think it's Ashara Dayne. He didn't need to deny the AD rumour as she had "committed suicide", but as Lord of Winterfell he forbade it being spoken of again by anyone.

The Dayne's are happy to support the Wylla myth due to thier respect for Ned (he returned Dawn), and are Targ loyalists, which slots in with a theory I have regarding the parentage of Gerold Dayne (Darkstar), Aegon Targaran, Young Griff and Daario Naharis. It was posted a month ago title Tripple Switch and Pisswater Prince if your interested.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Hey guys, I've read this thread from time to time, but they go so fast I rarely see everything.

I'm just wondering, apart from the legitimacy of R+l=J (which I wholeheartedly believe), do you discuss other things related, as to the initiation of the relationship between R and L, who else knows etc, or is just R+L's legitimacy?