R+L=J v.34

[corbon]

I'm still really skeptical about this...

Because, in my opinion, both the main plot in AGOT (I mean the book) and the War of Five Kings are based on a single line: the seed is strong.

if Jon was a Targ, that line would lose most of its sense, and to me all Martin's saga would lose a lot of its credibility. It's a matter of coherence.

Do we have to assume that Jon Arryn was a fool?

Then maybe Tommen is really Robert's son (they slept in the same bed for 17 years, maybe one night he was drunk and Cersey doesn't remember or she's ashamed and doesn't want to tell anybody what happened). Maybe one of Cat's Children is Littlefinger's... Maybe Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's! Anyone could be anyone's child, if the seed isn't strong... so secret Targs everywhere (what a nightmare) and plenty of crackpot theories.

Why there's so much hype around Aegon? bacause he has Targ features, and that's the way it's got to be.

Because the seed is strong.

The only seed that is strong is Baratheon. Everyone else's look uniformly gives way to the Baratheon look. No other seed is consistent the same way - not Stark, not Tully, not Targaryen, not Lannister, nobody.

Its not a major theme in the books at all, just one single plotline.

[rohit39]

I agree with the above point. "The seed is strong" is to place emphasis on the fact that all Baratheons were off dark hair till Cersei came along. Its not a mantra for the entire series or anything.

[setmyheartafire]

I know I've seen people talking about the tournament at Harrenhal before, but I can't recall them all...

To me this event is full of clues about what really happened to spark the rebellion. I'm not sure what happened, but I have wondered about some of the issues surrounding this event...

First, Varys convinces Aerys Rhaegar arranged the tournament to plot dethroning him. On the one hand, Varys has his own aims. Is Varys telling the truth only to be a good counselor to the king? Probably not, as most everything he has done thus far has been to serve "the realm" (yeah, right... himself). On the other hand, it's unclear as to what Varys' aims truly are, and what the truth really is. For example, Varys could be telling lies to the mad king because his paranoia could suit Varys' aims. Or, Varys could be telling the truth of things... but still because Aerys' paranoia could suit his aims. So we can't be sure that what Varys tells Aerys isn't true, or that it is true either way.

What we do know if that according to Barristan Selmy, Lord Whent announces the tourney after being visited by his brother Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. These two attend, as do Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, and Ser Arthur Dayne.

Also in attendance are the houses from the North, Riverlands, Vale, and Stormlands.

Does Rhaegar plan the tourney to get closer to these lords and with them plan to overthrow his mad father?

I don't think it's entirely out of the question. Specifically, Rhaegar tells Jaime Lannister before he rides off to battle that when he returns there will be changes. He seems entirely confident. We know things didn't go to his plan, but we also don't know what the plan was. His words seem to indicate, though, that he feels he will be in a position of power to make changes. Considering this it seems as though he might well plan to dethrone his mad father and take the chair. But what changes? Does he simply mean he wants to end the madness of Aerys' reign? Does he mean something else? I've read many of the theories so these things could include legitimizing Lyanna and their child and/or revealing the truth of the marriage to Elia as a political sham, reuniting the North and South in blood, etc. The only definite answer in the text is that he does plan to return to KL to make changes. We can't be certain what they are.

Varys contends that he's planning a coup, which makes Aerys paranoid about the event at Harrenhal. Aerys attends.

If Varys was telling the truth, are Rhaegar's purposes foiled with his father in attendance?

Strangely, we later see three of the KG in attendance guarding the tower of joy. Whent, Hightower, and Dayne. During the sack of KL, these three aren't in KL with Aerys. They aren't later in Dragonstone with Viserys. They are at the tower of joy, which is associated with Rhaegar. There's a thread about their persons being at tower of joy, and why kicking around.

I think these three being at the tower of joy may indicate that their loyalty lay with Rhaegar, or that they were, as Varys contended, part of his plan to overthrow Aerys. There is contention about the sacred vows of the KG, but basically I think the bottom line is that their duty is to protect the King- even from himself. Jaime Lannister says this about Joffrey much later. Rhaegar's plans may well have been to dethrone Aerys... but by all accounts, Aerys had gone mad, and was damaging himself and his House. Surely, the KG has a duty to the king to put an end to such madness and keep safe the king from such harm as well. Rhaegar's plans, if Varys told it true, might have been to sustain his House, not steal the throne from his father for his own benefit. The KG protect the dynasty, so it's not a stretch to imagine them choosing to uphold this ideal over following the orders of a crazy man they had watched burn a noble in his armor.

But then, why the tower of joy? Why did Rhaegar name the tower the tower of joy? And what did Lyanna have to do with any of this?

First, I think we must remember that Rhaegar had been married to Elia Martell. It was, as most of the marriages in this series are, a political alliance between Targaryens and Martells. And most likely a little revenge on Tywin Lannister. Elia and Oberyn had been originally intended for the Lannister twins, but Tywin had higher hopes and tried to marry Cersei off to Rhaegar. Spurned by this, the Martells arrange a marriage between Elia and Rhaegar instead.

From all accounts, Rhaegar is "fond" of Elia, and seems to respect her. Daenarys remarks to herself that the word "'fond' spoke volumes", essentially inferring that her brother was not "in love" with his wife. And how many arranged marriages are there in which the couple are in love? It's fair to say Rhaegar was not in love with Elia, or Elia with Rhaegar. But they were bound by duty to their Houses and the realm to marry, and so they did.

Characters speak highly of Rhaegar, indicating that he had his honour, and wasn't the black hearted raping scoundrel that Robert Baratheon insists he was. Ned Stark's own thoughts never vilify Rhaegar. If anyone would indicate that he didn't like Rhaegar, one would think that would be Ned. Afterall, Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna and caused all this war nonsense to occur. It was "because of Rhaegar" that Ned's brother and father died in KL at Aerys' hand. But still, Ned doesn't seem to harbor any lingering ill will towards the memory of Rhaegar. His memories of Rhaegar could even be called positive.

So, then. Why would an honorable prince like Rhaegar suddenly turn black and do all these miserable things? Why would he forsake his marriage and have this mistress, get her with child, and plan to overthrow his father's reign?

Let's go back to the tourney at Harrenhal.

There gathered were all those guys in the Kingsguard, the royal house, and the nobles. Remember the issue with the squires and the crannogman? They kind of pick on him for being smaller than they are, even though he's a man grown. Who comes to his rescue? With a sword? Lyanna. The quintessential "why don't you pick on someone your own size?" scene. Afterwards the Starks hounded the crannogman to defend his honor and ride in the tournament. But he kept waffling.

Meanwhile, Rhaegar sings a song that has Lyanna in tears. She's teased about it by her brother Benjen. In true Arya fashion, Lyanna dumps her wine over his head.

The next day, the Knight of the Laughing Tree shows up. This is a mystery knight, "short of stature", with a hodgepodge of armor, and a shield with a laughing weirwood tree emblazoned upon it. He rides the lists defeating the houses of the squires that had picked on the crannogman, then chastises them in a booming voice (indicating it's not the knight's own voice, but disguised). Then the knight vanishes.

So I think a lot of people contend this is a Stark. But I think it's not just any Stark. I think it is Lyanna herself. I think this is her personality. Like Arya, she is a fighter. Benjen wounded her pride the night before, and she wanted to prove she was still the fiery wild wolf maiden she was. So she took up Reed's cause and rode against knights in the tourney. Like Arya, she donned another "face". Like Jon, she defends the weaker guy (a parallel of this story is Jon's protection of Sam when he first shows up at The Wall).

Aerys, being paranoid, thinks this Knight is his enemy and orders Rhaegar to find him.

I think Rhaegar definitely finds him. I think he finds Lyanna. I think this is why he falls in love with her. He is taken by her wild quality, the spark of fire within this north woman, and her desire for justice for the little guy. I think Rhaegar has high ideals that are all upheld by Lyanna's actions.

Love makes people do crazy things.

Lyanna didn't want to be with Robert. It is clear that she doesn't want to deal with his whoring. I don't think she thought on him too fondly at all to begin with. I've read others say well if Lyanna didn't like Robert's infidelity, then why would she run off with a married prince?

Love makes people do crazy things.

Rhaegar and Elia probably weren't "in love", but Rhaegar and Lyanna were. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna were bound to marry out of duty rather than love. That is why where she's hidden is called the tower of joy. It is Rhaegar and Lyanna's place where they are not bound to anyone other than who they want to bound to. It is a place of joy, away from the duty of KL, and Winterfell.

If Rhaegar was planning something at Harrenhal, we don't know. We do know that three of the KG in attendance, Whent, Hightower, and Dayne, are all present at the tower of joy when Ned arrives after the war is won.

We can almost clearly infer Lyanna is present at this tower during the battle between the KG and Ned's party. In his dream, Ned hears Lyanna screaming his name. In truth she may have been screaming, period, because she is in childbirth. Certainly, Ned finds her in "a bed of blood". The KG are all outside the tower, so clearly they haven't wounded the girl. Rhaegar has been dead at the Trident for weeks or even months, so clearly he didn't harm her before Ned gets to her. If so, she would have already been dead.

So why were these three KG, present at Harrenhal (indeed, Whent seems to have planted the seed in his brothers ear to arrange the tourney), at the tower of joy? Some say they are just guarding the heir apparent (Jon, Lyanna and Rhaegar's son). Some say they are upholding their oaths to Rhaegar.

If so, then what oaths to Rhaegar? What plans were afoot that Ned Stark figures out and heads their way? What might he have been planning at Harrenhal if Varys' whispers to Aerys are to be believed? What might he have planned afterwards, after meeting the woman he fell in love with?

Did Rhaegar intend to take the throne and legitimize Lyanna and Jon?

I think it's clear that Lyanna is giving birth to Jon in the tower of joy when Ned arrives. I think she dies in childbirth. I don't think she has this fever everyone posts about. I think the childbirth was difficult, just as Elia's was, and other Targaryean queens before experienced. I think she begs Ned not to let Robert get ahold of Rhaegar's son, because she knows it will put the newborn in peril.

I think all of this comes from the event at Harrenhal. I think one of the Starks did impregnant Ashara Dayne. Possibly Brandon or Benjen. I don't believe it is Ned. He is too shy, he doesn't even want to ask her to dance. I believe Barriston is correct, that she had a stillborn daughter. I think Ned tries to convince her to take on Jon instead since everyone expects her to have a child, and her grief over the lost baby really does cause her to commit suicide. I think this is why he doesn't want her name spoken, because he feels so guilty about it. That and... whispered rumors keep the idea alive that Jon is a bastard, but if words grew too numerous then the issue would have to be "officially" spoken of, and it might be found out that this one possible mother was never Jon's mother at all, unraveling Ned's lies and Jon's cover...

[Ygrain]

I think it's clear that Lyanna is giving birth to Jon in the tower of joy when Ned arrives. I think she dies in childbirth. I don't think she has this fever everyone posts about. I think the childbirth was difficult, just as Elia's was, and other Targaryean queens before experienced. I think she begs Ned not to let Robert get ahold of Rhaegar's son, because she knows it will put the newborn in peril.

Good reasoning, up till now. Ned's recollection explicitely mentiones that Lyanna was feverish and basically held onto life until she could extract that promise from him. Fever is a symptom of infection, does not develop immediately and it takes several days before an otherwise healthy person succumbs to infection. It would be one hell of an accident if Ned arrived just at the moment when Lyanna was giving birth; with childbed fever, he could have arrived any time within a fortnight or so.

Besides, Targaryen queens are not specifically prone to difficult births. Giving birth is a tricky business, especially in low-hygiene environments, and birthing-related complications were the most common cause of death of women of fertile age in the past.

[Zupoleon]

Good reasoning, up till now. Ned's recollection explicitely mentiones that Lyanna was feverish and basically held onto life until she could extract that promise from him. Fever is a symptom of infection, does not develop immediately and it takes several days before an otherwise healthy person succumbs to infection. It would be one hell of an accident if Ned arrived just at the moment when Lyanna was giving birth; with childbed fever, he could have arrived any time within a fortnight or so.

Besides, Targaryen queens are not specifically prone to difficult births. Giving birth is a tricky business, especially in low-hygiene environments, and birthing-related complications were the most common cause of death of women of fertile age in the past.

How to explain the room smelling of blood then?

[Ygrain]

How to explain the bed of blood then? One would assume the sheets would be changed, rather than have her lay in a bloody bed for a day or two while she took a fever...

I don't think it needs to be taken literally - and even if it does, the self-cleaning process of the womb takes a couple of weeks, with quite heavy bleeding within the first 1-2 weeks.

[Dragonfish]

How to explain the bed of blood then? One would assume the sheets would be changed, rather than have her lay in a bloody bed for a day or two while she took a fever...

She could have continued bleeding even after the sheets were changed.

[Zupoleon]

Fair enough. I also find it a little unlikely that Ned arrived just at the precise moment that Lyanna was giving birth. Just wanted to get people's thoughts...

[Dr. Pepper]

The "bloody bed/bed of blood" things are figures of speech. It's not literally talking about a bed full of blood (though that happens during the course of labor) but referencing child birth in general. For example, MMD's words of (paraphrasing here), "I know the secrets of the bloody bed." She's not saying she knows why blood gets on beds during labor, but that she has midwifery skills. She has the medical knowledge to get from labor pains through labor all the way until mother and child are recovered (or one or both die).

Now, "bloody sheet" references are a bit more literal. It's literally referring to the sheet used to prove consummation of a union.

[The Mountain That Flies]

But why Whent? And why Hightower? We know Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend, but the oher two seem a bit random. I realize Lewyn Martell wasn't an option, but the idea of this specific groups of Kingsguard being involved in a plot from the start means they were specifically chosen. I suppose having the Lord Commander in on your plot is helpful, but was Whent just there for his family connections?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But why Whent? And why Hightower? We know Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend, but the oher two seem a bit random. I realize Lewyn Martell wasn't an option, but the idea of this specific groups of Kingsguard being involved in a plot from the start means they were specifically chosen. I suppose having the Lord Commander in on your plot is helpful, but was Whent just there for his family connections?

There's some speculation that the Harrenhal tournament — the Whents' seat — really was a cover for Rhaegar to glad-hand the lords and lay a power base for eventually deposing Aerys. In that case, it seems like Whent, for whatever reason, threw in his lot with Rhaegar's cause. I also subscribe to the idea that it was from Harrenhal, sometime after the tournament, that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped, which would also suggest Whent's assistance.

As for Hightower, I'm really not sure. He could be a Rhaegar partisan, or he could have just been there because he was ordered to. We may find out and we may not.

[Old-Growth]

I thought that the White Bull was sent from Kings Landing to retrieve Rhaegar. Is it not so?

[Dragonfish]

I thought that the White Bull was sent from Kings Landing to retrieve Rhaegar. Is it not so?

It's never mentioned in the books when or why Hightower went from King's Landing to the ToJ.

[Old-Growth]

Dr. Pepper: nicely put.

[Old-Growth]

Duplicate, sorry.

[Old-Growth]

It's never mentioned in the books when or why Hightower went from King's Landing to the ToJ.

Ah. Maybe something I found in a previous post and have forgotten the origin thereof.

[corbon]

Ah. Maybe something I found in a previous post and have forgotten the origin thereof.

Possibly my fault - a best guess speculation not always clearly noted as such by me.

We know Hightower was at KL when Brandon arrived and no one claimed to know where Rhaegar was.

We know Aerys called for Rhaegar to return and dtake over after the Battle of the Bells.

We know Rhaegar somehow returned after that call.

We know Hightower was not at KL when Rhaegar returned and assigned KG to come with him to the Trident (Selmy, Martell and Darry) or stay and guard Aerys (Jaime).

We know Hightower was at ToJ when Ned got there.

It is by no means certain that Hightower went from Aerys' side to find and return Rhaegar at his command, but it fits all that we know.

[Old-Growth]

Corbon, thanks. It may have been a previous post by you. Anyway, a nice account of the evidence---more than I could come up with, despite having read the books each several times over.

[Lady of the Oak]

I can't remember the exact quote but, in one of the Jaime chapters, doesn't he remember Hightower telling that their job is to serve the king, not judge him. If he really was on Rhaegar's side of a possible coup, that seems like a pretty clear judgement... :rolleyes:

[Lonin]

We know Hightower was not at KL when Rhaegar returned and assigned KG to come with him to the Trident (Selmy, Martell and Darry) or stay and guard Aerys (Jaime).

I thought Selmy and Darry had already left to regroup the army and replace JonCon commanding, also I thought Martell had also already left to lead the Dornish forces. Whst is the source of your info?