R+L = Jon and Meera Reed?

[ChillyPolly]

 

I don't remember Quaithe ever mentioning the three heads of the dragon. Rhaegar and Aemon clearly believed that three people = three heads of the dragon. But they are known to misinterpret prophecies and that is why they are unreliable. Jorah said that Dany's two husbands and Dany would be the three dragonriders and three heads of the dragon. We know that Jorah was thinking with his dick in that occasion. Dany believes that three heads of the dragon means three people and she should find two people she could trust to be dragonriders and the heads of the dragon.

 

Singing "everything you know is wrong",

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8

while possibly true, gets boring after a while, because it provides no basis for discussion.  

 

There is plenty of room for wondering who the three heads of the dragon are, and room for wondering whether or not they are 3 siblings or just 3 dragonriders with Targ heritage, and room for red herrings as to this issue.  Going even further to suggest that GRRM has not only seriously misled us as to the answer to the question, but also as to the meaning of the question, carries us into realms where it is not even useful to speculate.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

I am not sure I buy this theory, but to be fair, those quotes you cited do not really establish that Meera looked like a "typical Crannogman." They merely establish that Crannogmen are typically short and slim compared to most people. The statement about her hair and eye color is placed in a separate sentence, indicating that those traits are not necessarily ones of the "typical Crannogman," but rather merely referencing the specific individual traits of Meera herself.

Yes, actually they do.  For one thing the wiki outright says it.  For another, Meera is 16 and no taller than Jojen who is really short.  The brown hair and green eyes, combined with the shortness are typical of the crannogs.   :bang:

 

 

 

No, the only way it would make any sense at all is if Jon and Meera were Aegon and Rhaenys. But we are told that the dates don't match.

 

Meera is a minor character and she has had no interaction with Jon of note. It really makes no sense for her to be Jon's sister. 

 

If it wasn't for the small detail of being dead and not knowing about his brother's will, Jon is the Stark heir and king of the North if he wants it. So I am rather puzzled that people think R+L=J which makes him a second tier bastard Targarean pretender is any sort of gamechanger.

 

Starks rule the North and have a serious following. House Targarean really doesn't at this point.

Aegon and Rhaenys were not twins.  :bang:

 

 

How is GRRM going to explain that? This theory is very much contrived without the twins of different fathers.

Not to mention how Howland got to Dorne for a night of fertile fun in the middle of a war.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I wonder if the StarWars movie proximity is the factor causing this whole "twin" uprising... I ( and many others in this thread) don't think that's the case, for multiple reasons that people have already posted here.. But I will tell you my main 2

1. Meera is a crannogman, her appearance fits the description of one.. And she is compared to Jojen multiple times

2. Why would GRRM introduce us to meera so late if she was going to be of great importance?

Actually it's a statement by Alfie Allen (who plays Theon on the show) that he knows the truth about Jon's parentage and that it has a Star Wars-like twist to it.  The problem is people are taking the obvious road with that, despite the fact that this series tends to avoid the obvious.

 

Star Wars-like:

1. mother died giving birth to him

2. father is thought of as a villain -- by some

3. raised by his uncle

 

If he has a twin, it's probably not a girl because that would be almost a total rip-off of Star Wars, and GRRM would not be ripping off a story that recent.  Borrow from the classics, sure, but not from George Lucas.

[Mithras]

 

Singing "everything you know is wrong",

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8

while possibly true, gets boring after a while, because it provides no basis for discussion.  

 

There is plenty of room for wondering who the three heads of the dragon are, and room for wondering whether or not they are 3 siblings or just 3 dragonriders with Targ heritage, and room for red herrings as to this issue.  Going even further to suggest that GRRM has not only seriously misled us as to the answer to the question, but also as to the meaning of the question, carries us into realms where it is not even useful to speculate.

 

George gave enough clues to guess what the three heads of the dragon mean.

[Meera of Tarth]

Actually it's a statement by Alfie Allen (who plays Theon on the show) that he knows the truth about Jon's parentage and that it has a Star Wars-like twist to it.  The problem is people are taking the obvious road with that, despite the fact that this series tends to avoid the obvious.

 

Star Wars-like:

1. mother died giving birth to him

2. father is thought of as a villain -- by some

3. raised by his uncle

 

If he has a twin, it's probably not a girl because that would be almost a total rip-off of Star Wars, and GRRM would not be ripping off a story that recent.  Borrow from the classics, sure, but not from George Lucas.

I didn't know that! I googled it and I found:

 

I asked [George R.R. Martin] about who Jon Snow’s real parents were, and he told me. I can’t say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It’s definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that’s why there’s incest with the Targaryen line. It’s toned down, though.

[VenezuelanLord]

 
Assuming Baby Aegon survived (setting aside the question of whether Young Griff and Baby Aegon are the same person); and further assuming that R+L=J, we still have only 2 dragon siblings, not 3.  Dany would not be a sibling unless R+L=D or R+?=D (which I'm willing to consider, but I'm in the minority). 
 
And without necessarily pushing Meera, I'd say characters introduced fairly early are better choices than ones introduced in Book 5.

The prophecy could refer to the Targ family as a whole, not only Rhaegar's children

[VenezuelanLord]

Actually it's a statement by Alfie Allen (who plays Theon on the show) that he knows the truth about Jon's parentage and that it has a Star Wars-like twist to it.  The problem is people are taking the obvious road with that, despite the fact that this series tends to avoid the obvious.
 
Star Wars-like:
1. mother died giving birth to him
2. father is thought of as a villain -- by some
3. raised by his uncle
 
If he has a twin, it's probably not a girl because that would be almost a total rip-off of Star Wars, and GRRM would not be ripping off a story that recent.  Borrow from the classics, sure, but not from George Lucas.

That makes sense, a feeble support to a theory as risky as this

[ChillyPolly]

The prophecy could refer to the Targ family as a whole, not only Rhaegar's children

 

Sure, but then they would not be siblings, which I thought was a premise of the discussion here.  I guess I needed to list another assumption.

 

There is a some basis for the idea that the 3 heads of the dragon are siblings.

 

(1) The traditional 3-headed dragon of house Targaryen represents Aegon and his 2 siblings.

 

(2) Rhaegar's interpretation of the 3 headed prophesy was evidently that the 3 headed dragon would be his own 3 children, as he named his first 2 children after Aegon and his older sister, and then remarked (in the HotU vision) that there must be a third.

 

(3) The Undying tell Dany of a "child of three"; and then when she asks "three?" they say, as if in answer or elaboration, that the dragon has 3 heads.  "Child of three" can be interpreted as one of three children of a particular parent or set of parents; and it is hard to see what else it might mean since they have presumably grown up to some extent are no longer "children" in any other sense.

[VenezuelanLord]

 
Sure, but then they would not be siblings, which I thought was a premise of the discussion here.  I guess I needed to list another assumption.
 
There is a some basis for the idea that the 3 heads of the dragon are siblings.
 
(1) The traditional 3-headed dragon of house Targaryen represents Aegon and his 2 siblings.
 
(2) Rhaegar's interpretation of the 3 headed prophesy was evidently that the 3 headed dragon would be his own 3 children, as he named his first 2 children after Aegon and his older sister, and then remarked (in the HotU vision) that there must be a third.
 
(3) The Undying tell Dany of a "child of three"; and then when she asks "three?" they say, as if in answer or elaboration, that the dragon has 3 heads.  "Child of three" can be interpreted as one of three children of a particular parent or set of parents; and it is hard to see what else it might mean since they have presumably grown up to some extent are no longer "children" in any other sense.

No, you misunderstood me, I was referring to Aegon as the head of the dragon that is lacking, yea Rhaegar interpreted the prophecy like that, but he could ( and most likely) be wrong, I can't counter the HoTU, but I think those visions are easy to misinterpret..

[GCabot]

Yes, actually they do.  For one thing the wiki outright says it.  For another, Meera is 16 and no taller than Jojen who is really short.  The brown hair and green eyes, combined with the shortness are typical of the crannogs.   :bang:

 

 

The wiki is a wiki; it is not authoritative. And regardless, the wiki is identical to the text:

 

First descriptor: "As is typical of crannogmen, Meera is short and slim."

Hence, we know that crannogmen are typically short and slim.

 

Second descriptor:"She has long brown hair and green eyes."

Again, clearly this is a separate part of Meera's description, not a continuation of common traits. This is indicated both by GRRM's use of the singular rather than the plural, and by the physical segregation of this information from the former by being placed in a completely different sentence. Nothing here provides any information on what hair or eye color would be most prevalent among crannogmen.

 

Furthermore, even if we were to accept the idea that Meera looks like a typical crannogman in all respects, that still does not disqualify the possibility that Meera might not be a crannogman genetically. There are likely thousands of non-crannogman individuals that happen to have those same traits. Having the same stature, physical build, and eye and hair color as someone else is not a particularly rare occurrence. If one believed in the OP's theory, one could even posit that the entire reason why Howland took Meera was because of her physical appearance, knowing that it would thus be easier to conceal her true identity given her features. Again, I have yet to buy into that theory, but Meera's appearance given the textual evidence cannot be used to summarily dismiss it either.

[VenezuelanLord]

Family looks are the ASOIAF version of a DNA test, we have seen it already a thousand times, that's why Sansa, Aegon and Egg had to change their hairstyle, in order to not being discovered, GRRM have gone a great length in making us understand so, all Robert's Bastards have share at least one of those traits, and the lannisters rule is being put to question for the lacking of said traits... So I personally think that the character Hair and Eyes signals their ascendency.. Benjen eyes are described as blue-grey, the grey part is our clue, GRRM could just put light blue, or icy blue as in Roose's case, but he choose blue-grey, signalling the grey-eyed trait that most Starks share

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Family looks are the ASOIAF version of a DNA test, we have seen it already a thousand times, that's why Sansa, Aegon and Egg had to change their hairstyle, in order to not being discovered, GRRM have gone a great length in making us understand so, all Robert's Bastards have share at least one of those traits, and the lannisters rule is being put to question for the lacking of said traits... So I personally think that the character Hair and Eyes signals their ascendency.. Benjen eyes are described as blue-grey, the grey part is our clue, GRRM could just put light blue, or icy blue as in Roose's case, but he choose blue-grey, signalling the grey-eyed trait that most Starks share

Agreed.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Tyrion is not a Targ.
 
That theory is the natural continuation of this red herring I am talking about.

See? That's what I'm talking about. If even someone such as yourself who has read and analyzed the books over and over again still doesn't know that Tyrion is a Targ, then it's in no way obvious who the three heads of the dragon are.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

See? That's what I'm talking about. If even someone such as yourself who has read and analyzed the books over and over again still doesn't know that Tyrion is a Targ, then it's in no way obvious who the three heads of the dragon are.

VC, there are numerous hints of Tyrion's possible Targ paternity, but those are not to prove that he is one.  They are to give him and the other characters enough of a clue that they'll THINK he is one, particularly when he rides a dragon.  It's entirely about character reactions to the possibility and how that changes their interactions with Tyrion, and how Tyrion thinks of himself.  

 

People in story think you have to be a Targ to ride a dragon, but that's not established as a fact.  And really, GRRM may never tell us for certain whether or not Tyrion is a dragonseed (but he speaks of Tywin as Tyrion's father a lot, so he may consider that enough).

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Curse George Lucas ! That lame twin story line has worked into every discussion about R+L = someone else .Because suddenly the question becomes so Jon has a twin .

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Curse George Lucas ! That lame twin story line has worked into every discussion about R+L = someone else .Because suddenly the question becomes so Jon has a twin .

Only because people are trying so hard.

 

Jon already has not been told the truth about his parents, was raised by his uncle, and his mother died after giving birth to him.

[JonAhai]

On August 29, 2015 at 0:29 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

VC, there are numerous hints of Tyrion's possible Targ paternity, but those are not to prove that he is one.  They are to give him and the other characters enough of a clue that they'll THINK he is one, particularly when he rides a dragon.  It's entirely about character reactions to the possibility and how that changes their interactions with Tyrion, and how Tyrion thinks of himself.  

 

People in story think you have to be a Targ to ride a dragon, but that's not established as a fact.  And really, GRRM may never tell us for certain whether or not Tyrion is a dragonseed (but he speaks of Tywin as Tyrion's father a lot, so he may consider that enough).

Yes why should only Targs ride dragons? I find it more likely that BRAN is the third head, through warging into one of them, than Tryion being a Targ (not to mention, one full Targ, one full Statk, and one half Stark/half Targ would be a more balanced configuration of the Ice to Fire ratio. 1.5 parts of each). 

There is so little evidence supporting this theory about Tyrion. It pales into comparison of the evidence than Jon is a Targ. 

[hallam]

On 8/29/2015 at 7:53 AM, VenezuelanLord said:

Family looks are the ASOIAF version of a DNA test, we have seen it already a thousand times, that's why Sansa, Aegon and Egg had to change their hairstyle, in order to not being discovered, GRRM have gone a great length in making us understand so, all Robert's Bastards have share at least one of those traits, and the lannisters rule is being put to question for the lacking of said traits... So I personally think that the character Hair and Eyes signals their ascendency.. Benjen eyes are described as blue-grey, the grey part is our clue, GRRM could just put light blue, or icy blue as in Roose's case, but he choose blue-grey, signalling the grey-eyed trait that most Starks share

Really?

Mance Raider / Rattleshirt Glamor?

Show Mel looks 30, is 300.

Appearances can be very deceptive in GoT. Claiming otherwise is desperation. And yes, if you make 10,000+ posts on R+L=J then you are desperate.

GRRM introduces warging and the glamor for a reason. The show doesn't care for either but shows us that Mel has been able to disguise her looks.

Fake Aegon obviously isn't Aegon, so who is he? Could he actually be a Stark that only looks Targ while jon is a Targ who looks Stark?

The show would not want the fake Aegon explanation because they don't want to have to change the actor. So they do away with the Mance glamor and the fake Aegon plot and instead show us Mel is hiding her age.