Varys the Mastermind/ Littlefinger the Golddigger: A Comparison

[Ragnorak]

It still seems a little convoluted to me when he could have simply pointed out Gendry's location with pretty much the same effects, but then it's Varys we are talking about. Also, Gendry's master was not among the Antler Men. He later forged Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper for Tywin. You're thinking about the guy who offered to make Tyrion the demon helmet.

Thank you for the correction. I had it in my head that he and the demon head blacksmith were the same.

As to why I imagine that knowing the travel arrangements of even the smallfolk seems more impressive (aside from the possible paranoia induced by the implied threat of someone smuggling the bastards out) but mostly for me it is just piecing together what's there. Someone had to tell Cersei and it was most likely Varys. It is possible that she just sent Goldcloaks to have him killed and the blacksmith told them but someone still needed to tell her about the bastards in the first place which points back to Varys.

[the Scorpion Knight]

There are subtle hints in the books about how he "goes through them," in so many words. It's a "read between the lines" type of thing but the subtext is definitely there.

evidendce

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

evidendce

I'm going to assume that you're asking for evidence.

When Arya overhears Illyrio and Varys in the dungeon, Varys says he needs "another" 50 birds, i.e. children. The suggestion is that he's "gone through" the ones he has. Varys' network is made up entirely of children, yet it's funny that these children don't seem to age — just like the Persian Immortals weren't really immortal, they were just replaced when they were killed so there were always 10,000. Given that these children don't seem to stay in the network as they grow up and that they know a lot of dirt, the obvious conclusion is that Varys kills them.

Put two and two together?

[Toccs]

When Arya overhears Illyrio and Varys in the dungeon, Varys says he needs "another" 50 birds, i.e. children. The suggestion is that he's "gone through" the ones he has.

Not only that, but that way the Illyrio responds indicates that this isn't the first time that Varys has needed more Little Birds. Illyrio has an entire infrastructure set up to train these Little Birds and Varys is pushing it to breaking point.

That's literally hundreds of kids being turned over and since neither King's Landing nor Illyrio's Manse are filled with tongueless teenagers, the conclusion to be drawn is that there is no retirement package for the Little Birds.

[tze]

Someone had to tell Cersei and it was most likely Varys. It is possible that she just sent Goldcloaks to have him killed and the blacksmith told them but someone still needed to tell her about the bastards in the first place which points back to Varys.

Is it possible that Littlefinger was Cersei's source, not Varys? (I'm not making an argument either way---I'm just wondering (off the top of my head) if it's a possibility.) One of the things I've always found striking is how Cersei, the Empress of Paranoia, who sees schemes in basically everything, somehow never seems to consider distrusting Littlefinger during her descent into batshitedness in AFFC. And from what I can see, Littlefinger's (known) actions should have been pinging her paranoia radar pretty drastically---he publicly led the negotiations that brought the hated Tyrells to King's Landing, he offered to marry the hated Sansa, etc. Is the reason that Cersei doesn't see anything amiss with Littlefinger due to her belief that he's on her side due to some service he did for her in the past? And if so, could that "service" have had to do with Robert's bastards? That it was the gold cloaks who were sent after Gendry, given that we know the gold cloaks were in Littlefinger's pocket, might be a hint that Littlefinger, not Varys, was the one involved in all this.

[Toccs]

Yeah I was always under the impression that Varys was the one who gave Gendry to Yoren. Why would he bother doing that if he were the one who informed Cersei of Gendry in the first place.

My guess is that Littlefinger told Cersei about Gendry, a Little Bird overheard and told Varys and that caused Varys to take actions to get Gendry out of the city.

[Stenbuck]

Come on guys, I think y'all are being too harsh on poor old Littlefinger :P

I do not personally believe that his game is 'inferior' to Varys'. Rather, I believe they simply play a different style.

Varys is a long term player. So far, he has not had that much success as far short term goals for him are concerned, at least apparently. See preventing Aerys from opening the gates for Tywin, delaying the war (whose rapid start was orchestrated by and favored Littlefinger), getting Aegon and Dany together (thwarted by Tyrion, apparently), getting Dany to go where he wants her... what has worked out very well for him is getting rid of Tywin through Tyrion (probably his greatest play as of yet) and getting rid of Kevan and letting Cersei destroy the realm (though this was also in LF's goals, although he wished for it to be slower). Which is not to say Varys is a bad player, not at all. But he's not without imperfections, it would seem.

I rather love Littlefinger because he plays a much more ballsy game without the benefit of Varys' spy network and dragon kids. True, Littlefinger was born a noble. This helped him A LOT. If he hadn't, he probably would not have been able to get where he did despite all his cunning. But he squeezed his little bit of nobility and his short time as a Tully ward for every little bit of influence he could get, and then some. This is a man who played the Lannisters in order to make him a high lord.

As far as his ultimate goals, I fear they are only slightly less murky than the Spider's. He does seem to be shooting for power, but then again so does Varys; the difference is Littlefinger seems to seek personal power, whilst Varys seeks to install his own brand of power in Westeros. In terms of true endgame, we don't really know at which point Littlefinger would stop or when he would slow down his game, if he ever would.

I could go on, but let me just say that while Varys is my 2nd favorite character in the series and I looove reading him, I just rather like Littlefinger more. Maybe I like his petty insolence and his sense of humor, and also his much more personally involved approach to the game. But I believe he is of an intellect with Varys, without a shadow of a doubt. They just use different methods. Littlefinger goes for the high risk high reward power plays, while Varys is playing a long game based on his trumps.

[The Sleeper]

Is it possible that Littlefinger was Cersei's source, not Varys? (I'm not making an argument either way---I'm just wondering (off the top of my head) if it's a possibility.) One of the things I've always found striking is how Cersei, the Empress of Paranoia, who sees schemes in basically everything, somehow never seems to consider distrusting Littlefinger during her descent into batshitedness in AFFC. And from what I can see, Littlefinger's (known) actions should have been pinging her paranoia radar pretty drastically---he publicly led the negotiations that brought the hated Tyrells to King's Landing, he offered to marry the hated Sansa, etc. Is the reason that Cersei doesn't see anything amiss with Littlefinger due to her belief that he's on her side due to some service he did for her in the past? And if so, could that "service" have had to do with Robert's bastards? That it was the gold cloaks who were sent after Gendry, given that we know the gold cloaks were in Littlefinger's pocket, might be a hint that Littlefinger, not Varys, was the one involved in all this.

Cersei's paranoia homes in on people who have directly antagonised her at some point in the past. As such, it focuses primarily on Stannis, the Tyrells and of course Tyrion. Everybody else pretty much does not exist. As LF has not stepped on her toes so far, she doesn't even think of him unless she needs him.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I'm going to assume that you're asking for evidence.

When Arya overhears Illyrio and Varys in the dungeon, Varys says he needs "another" 50 birds, i.e. children. The suggestion is that he's "gone through" the ones he has. Varys' network is made up entirely of children, yet it's funny that these children don't seem to age — just like the Persian Immortals weren't really immortal, they were just replaced when they were killed so there were always 10,000. Given that these children don't seem to stay in the network as they grow up and that they know a lot of dirt, the obvious conclusion is that Varys kills them.

Put two and two together?

first:

kids grow up fast(varys might only be able to use the little birds for 7-10years at best)

have you (re)read the tyrion chapters which play in illyrios manse?

most of the staff doesn't talk but seem to understand (and pretend not to)what tyrion says.

Not only that, but that way the Illyrio responds indicates that this isn't the first time that Varys has needed more Little Birds. Illyrio has an entire infrastructure set up to train these Little Birds and Varys is pushing it to breaking point.

That's literally hundreds of kids being turned over and since neither King's Landing nor Illyrio's Manse are filled with tongueless teenagers, the conclusion to be drawn is that there is no retirement package for the Little Birds.

you know V&I have been doing this for at least 30+ years.(which makes the number of little birds ~600 of of quite a wide age range and the manison is Large and nobody looks after servants (or other magisters ... )

[Ragnorak]

Is it possible that Littlefinger was Cersei's source, not Varys? (I'm not making an argument either way---I'm just wondering (off the top of my head) if it's a possibility.) One of the things I've always found striking is how Cersei, the Empress of Paranoia, who sees schemes in basically everything, somehow never seems to consider distrusting Littlefinger during her descent into batshitedness in AFFC. And from what I can see, Littlefinger's (known) actions should have been pinging her paranoia radar pretty drastically---he publicly led the negotiations that brought the hated Tyrells to King's Landing, he offered to marry the hated Sansa, etc. Is the reason that Cersei doesn't see anything amiss with Littlefinger due to her belief that he's on her side due to some service he did for her in the past? And if so, could that "service" have had to do with Robert's bastards? That it was the gold cloaks who were sent after Gendry, given that we know the gold cloaks were in Littlefinger's pocket, might be a hint that Littlefinger, not Varys, was the one involved in all this.

In rereading Tyrion I had come to a very similar conclusion regarding Tyrion's lack of suspicion directed at LF. I just read this:

“Lord Gyles will take him to Rosby, and conceal him there in the guise of a page. They plan to darken his hair and tell everyone that he is the son of a hedge knight.”

and thought "My Petyr, how original..." Considering this was Cersei's plan I have to wonder at her lack of curiosity.

LF clearly has some unsupervised access to Joffrey (the jousting dwarves and Ned's beheading) so that implies a degree of trust. Tywin refers to him as "our friend" which implies LF has been engaged in action to curry favor.

Cersei trusted him with ensuring the Goldcloaks were bribed with Ned so there's that connection. Cersei would know LF would was privy to Ned's accusation that Joffrey was a bastard from his betrayal (not realizing this is one of the primary reasons I originally dismissed him as a candidate) so it isn't as if she'd have to explain the bastard problem to him. I suspect that he was telling her that he was spying on Ned and gaining his trust as well.

So in short, yes, I think it could have been LF.

Yeah I was always under the impression that Varys was the one who gave Gendry to Yoren. Why would he bother doing that if he were the one who informed Cersei of Gendry in the first place.

My guess is that Littlefinger told Cersei about Gendry, a Little Bird overheard and told Varys and that caused Varys to take actions to get Gendry out of the city.

I personally have no issue with Varys creating a scenario for which he can appear useful to Cersei out of whole cloth just to make himself seem useful to Cersei. Varys knows of eight of Robert's bastards including two very public ones Edric and Mya. Gendry is hardly critical to his keeping bastards in reserve for a rainy day. If he were I suspect he would have smuggled him to Illyrio as we saw him do with Tyrion. He does tell Tyrion that he was responsible for sending Gendry with Yoren, but at the time he was also expecting Ned to be there as well. Sending a bastard with Ned as a reminder (and proof) of Joffrey's parentage seems like a seed Varys might plant to harvest later. As one scenario once Ned wasn't going to the Wall, Gendry served no purpose so why not gain bonus points with Cesei.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

A pretty major theme thus far has been how victory frequently relies as much on lucky timing as on skill or cleverness. The rise of magic means that Varys and Littlefinger, given the nature of the "power" they wield, couldn't have possibly timed their schemes more poorly. Had Varys and Littlefinger been playing their games a hundred years ago, or even twenty years ago, when magic was weak in Westeros, then their schemes might very well have worked. But it's all about perspective: the two "players" whose abilities would have rendered them "powerful" were the other players of the game all non-magical suddenly start looking weak and impotent when magical "players" like, for example, Bloodraven, enter the game. In a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is King---but in a world where people have two eyes, the one-eyed man is on the road to obsolescence (and the three-eyed man rules the roost---cough, cough. :) ) Varys and Littlefinger think they each have an eye where the rest of the world is blind, and had they been born in a different time, that might have been true; but now?

We shall see. They're both currently alive, and LF is wielding far more power than before. When they're in caskets, they'll have lost to the magicians. Until then....

I think too much has been made of LF. He is basically an opportunist with contigencies and a personal grudge. His main asset is (was) that he is useful without being a threat (or at least that is what most of the high lords thought of him). Though he played his part in dragging the Starks in the dynastic conflict, there are elements he could not have anticipated (like his old dagger being used to assasinate Bran) and it seems to me, that more than revenge, his motive in this setting was to keep Stannis off the throne at all costs, as the latter would unceremoniously kick him out of his snug and comfortable place. Getting Harrenhal wasn't his idea to begin with, and as far as his involvement in Joffrey's murder goes I think either the Queen of Thornes gave him little choice in the matter or he himself recognised that the Tyrell's would be the true power from now on and decided to get on their good side while having something to blackmail them with. Probably a bit of both. Furthermore, I wouldn't quite say that his situatuion has improved during the course of the series. He had a discreet but integral presence at the court and was the goto guy for everyone in it. Now he holds the impressive titles of lord paramount of the Trident and of protector of the Vale. However, Harrenhal is basically a ruin and if he wants to exercise any authority over the riverlands he needs the support of either the Iron Throne or the Freys. The Iron Throne has other concerns at the moment and the Freys would be damned if they did all they did to become subbordinate to the likes of him. All this renders the title of lord paramount empty. Furthermore, he is starting to get the Vale Lords to tolerate him but would they go to war for him? I just don't see that, except perhaps for Grafton. His tenure is by definition temporary and tenuous at best. Also, Sansa's presence is a liability to him. If the Iron Throne found out he would be instantly be branded a traitor, burning that bridge for good. In short, I don't think that there is much of an endgame other than grab what you can and stay afloat.

You vastly underestimate LF. An opportunist? Being a successful opportunist takes a vast amount of skill. He reacts better than almost anyone to events developing around him.

We have no idea who of himself and the Queen of Thorns was the brains behind the Purple Wedding. Most likely LF, since he had been planning a way to remove Sansa from KL as early as ACOK.

How can you say he has not improved his lot? He is the protector of the Vale (whose lords are becoming more and more indebted and compliant towards him) and the overlord of the Riverlands. He couldn't care less about Harrenhal, as he himself admits. Yet what he cares about is the influence it wields. LF has Osney telling him tales from abroad. He knows what's coming and is preparing for it. He got out of KL before seveal tonnes of shit hit the fan, and is currently in one of two regions not embroiled in war. Yes his position is somewhat precarious, but I'd hardly say anyone is secure right now.

LF tells Sansa that if you know what a man wants you can control him. Varys tells Tyrion through his riddle that it is a matter of what a man believes. LF says in a small council meeting that they ought to offer the Tyrells "gold reasons." I get the sense that he considers everyone buyable and that sex, land, titles, etc are just as much gold reasons as gold-- quite possibly because gold is what LF spends to acquire them regardless of how the end product is packaged.

Let's look at Varys relative to LF's value system. Varys, we can reasonably assume, is at least as close to just as wealthy as Illyrio given their partnership. That makes him quite the hard man to buy with gold. He's supposedly castrated so buying him with sex seems a bit difficult to say the least, and his agenda seems to be placing Aegon on the Iron Throne so I don't really see any land or titles buying him off either. LF has nothing Varys wants. On the other hand, I suspect Varys has a relatively good idea of what LF believes.

"The gods know what game LF is playing".

[Ragnorak]

@The Third Reed

In the chapter where Tyrion sends Slynt to the Wall the issue of Ned's beheading comes up and Tyrion covers that Slynt expected it, Varys was taken by surprise, and that someone whispered the idea to Joffrey but Tyrion can't identify who that was. Despite being taken by surprise and having his "peace" undermined, Varys does not clue Tyrion in that it was LF. Varys certainly knows about the dagger so it isn't like eliminating LF is going to be a hard sell to Tyrion. Varys chooses to keep LF in play despite the opportunity to take him out being handed to him. Varys clearly sees LF as a useful tool to keep around and not a threat to his agenda.

[the Scorpion Knight]

@The Third Reed

In the chapter where Tyrion sends Slynt to the Wall the issue of Ned's beheading comes up and Tyrion covers that Slynt expected it, Varys was taken by surprise, and that someone whispered the idea to Joffrey but Tyrion can't identify who that was. Despite being taken by surprise and having his "peace" undermined, Varys does not clue Tyrion in that it was LF. Varys certainly knows about the dagger so it isn't like eliminating LF is going to be a hard sell to Tyrion. Varys chooses to keep LF in play despite the opportunity to take him out being handed to him. Varys clearly sees LF as a useful tool to keep around and not a threat to his agenda.

or rather: he knows LF is selfdestructive and doesn't want to waste resources on him

or varys think taking out his pawns is enough

[Toccs]

I think that before aGoT Varys and Littlefinger were working together to cause strife in the realm. Littlfinger brings Varys with him to meet Catelyn and they both seemed to be in understanding of what was happening. They almost certainly do not know the true purpose of the each others plans, but they were both working towards the same goal . . . chaos.

It wasn't until after that meeting when Illyrio and Varys met and Ilyiro told Varys that he needed to hold off on the chaos until Drogo's son was born, that their agendas diverged and they had to play somewhat against each other.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

In the chapter where Tyrion sends Slynt to the Wall the issue of Ned's beheading comes up and Tyrion covers that Slynt expected it, Varys was taken by surprise, and that someone whispered the idea to Joffrey but Tyrion can't identify who that was. Despite being taken by surprise and having his "peace" undermined, Varys does not clue Tyrion in that it was LF. Varys certainly knows about the dagger so it isn't like eliminating LF is going to be a hard sell to Tyrion. Varys chooses to keep LF in play despite the opportunity to take him out being handed to him. Varys clearly sees LF as a useful tool to keep around and not a threat to his agenda.

Bolded.

1. Probably for two reasons. Firstly, he can't prove it. Secondly, he gains nothing from it. Just because Tyrion is clued in (without proof) that LF whispers in Joffrey's ear, so what? He has little to no chance of taking LF down, not while Cersei and Joffrey don't want him gone. At the same time, the city is on the verge of a monetary and food crisis. Taking out the master of coin would make little sense, especially when this man has men in almost every important administrative position. Varys does not guarantee LF's downfall by mentioning this to Tyrion. He doesn't hold LF's fate in his hands.

We also have no idea as to whether LF or Varys have any true dirt on the other because of the fact we can't see into their minds. The only potential fact is the possibly non-canon scene in GOT where LF suggests he knows about Varys' relation with Illyrio.

2. Just because Varys sees LF as a help to his agenda, it still doesn't mean he knows what he believes.

BTW, by "believes" you mean with regards to motives and the like, not stories about people yes?

Oh, and am I the only one who finds Varys' ability to bring tears to his eyes whenever he wants hilarious?

[butterbumps!]

I do think that Varys most likely believes the stories about Renly's and Penrose's deaths to be embellished, superstitious nonsense. People are also claiming that Robb Stark leads an army of wolves, has giants riding with him, etc., etc. There's precedent for the rumormongers of Westeros to attribute magical capabilities to anyone they view as "other", and Stannis's weird red priestess certainly fits in that category. Varys never saw any of the Starks with their direwolves (Lady was dead and Nymeria run off by the time the Starks reached King's Landing), and he spent years watching Thoros of Myr try, and fail, to practice magic in Aerys's and Robert's courts. Magic is more prevalent in Essos, but it appears that even there those powers were much, much weaker in the recent past; it wouldn't surprise me at all if Varys never encountered actual (or at least, unambiguous) forms of magic while he was living in the Free Cities (which would have been at least twenty years ago, depending on when he joined Aerys's court), only various forms of mummery.

That's an interesting take, and good points. But I do think it's strange that Varys correctly identifies the two times magic is used this way and doesn't bring up any other superstitious "interference" rumors going on regarding anything else. I mean, I get that as this is what actually happened, it stands to reason that these would be the rumors Varys hears, and he might just be trying to sell what's essentially "useless" info to his mind.

I don't know if the fact that magic was sorely weakened before these dragons occurred tells us anything conclusive about Varys' beliefs, though. We know that fire magic seemed weakened, but despite this, Thoros- who never seemed like a big believer in the first place-- somewhat uncharacteristically thought to try the kiss of life, despite it's never working for him before. It's possible that someone who hadn't previously seen the signs of magic would recognize these signs when they do ultimately come to fruition. Also, do we know for a certainty that Varys doesn't know about the dragons at this point? I think he could, actually.

And I don't know that he'd even necessarily be on the fire side. It could be the case of Varys "technical truth speak" that the omitted word here is "fire" to his declaration of magic-hate.

(And as a side note: it's interesting how Varys's "riddle of power" failed to include a purported sorcerer among the category of "powerful" people. There are any number of implications there, I think.)

Maybe the sorcerer is the unseen magician who's pulling the strings-- the entity that gets people to believe what they believe?

I don't think you can separate out the "magic" portion of the story, though, because everything in that story is geared toward Varys's ending thesis: "and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead.". The whole reason Varys needs to build trust with Tyrion in the first place is because Tyrion doesn't trust him (certainly not to the extent Varys needs Tyrion to trust him, so as to more effectively manipulate him). And the reason Tyrion doesn't trust Varys, given their relative political positions, is because they both know that there's a firm and likely candidate for Varys to betray Tyrion to: Stannis. The point of this story is twofold: 1) convince Tyrion that Varys trusts him enough to share a painful secret, thus forming a "bond" with him, AND 2) convince Tyrion that Varys would never, ever side with Stannis. Without the "a fire-loving magic-user mutilated me" part of the story, it achieves only the former and not the latter. And the latter is pretty darn key, given Stannis's threatening political and military position. The fact that Varys claims he was mutilated by the exact same elements he takes pains to associate with Stannis is, to me, a pretty strong hint that readers aren't supposed to accept the magical elements of Varys's "I hate magic" story as anything but self-serving lies.

I'm with you 100% on this as a gesture of goodwill through interpersonal exchange- in how he words this, in choosing this moment to tell Tyrion.

What's important for Varys' thesis is that he convinced Tyrion he won't side with Stannis. He chooses the route of saying he believes in magic, but as he's been personally hurt by it, that he will never align with someone who uses the same forces. This works whether Varys believes truly believes in magic or not, and doesn't really tell us anything about his real beliefs at all, actually. It could be the case that he was cut as he says but omits the fact that he was this wizard's apprentice, or that he follows a different sort of magic than Mel's purportedly, or that he actually does follow Mel's god. By saying he hates it all, he's establishing loyalty to Tyrion, but I don't think this precludes the possibility that he believes in magic or even follows it/ has connections to it in some way.

(And I suspect that many of the people calling Bloodraven a sorcerer way back when didn't really believe he had magical powers at all---accusations of magic-usage, somewhat like accusations of witchcraft in "our" world, tend to be used as propaganda to discredit and demean enemies; if the people making the accusations actually tended to believe them, well, I suspect those people usually wouldn't feel comfortable opposing these "sorcerers" in the first place without at least taking some form of precautions.)

That Bloodraven was originally called a sorcerer in a similar way is part of why this puts my hackles up. That "mice" was changed to "birds" didn't go unnoticed either.

A pretty major theme thus far has been how victory frequently relies as much on lucky timing as on skill or cleverness. The rise of magic means that Varys and Littlefinger, given the nature of the "power" they wield, couldn't have possibly timed their schemes more poorly. Had Varys and Littlefinger been playing their games a hundred years ago, or even twenty years ago, when magic was weak in Westeros, then their schemes might very well have worked. But it's all about perspective: the two "players" whose abilities would have rendered them "powerful" were the other players of the game all non-magical suddenly start looking weak and impotent when magical "players" like, for example, Bloodraven, enter the game. In a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is King---but in a world where people have two eyes, the one-eyed man is on the road to obsolescence (and the three-eyed man rules the roost---cough, cough. :) ) Varys and Littlefinger think they each have an eye where the rest of the world is blind, and had they been born in a different time, that might have been true; but now?

Whether Varys has connections to magic or not, I think Bloodraven is the true "man behind the curtain."

[butterbumps!]

Come on guys, I think y'all are being too harsh on poor old Littlefinger :P

I do not personally believe that his game is 'inferior' to Varys'. Rather, I believe they simply play a different style.

I rather love Littlefinger because he plays a much more ballsy game without the benefit of Varys' spy network and dragon kids. True, Littlefinger was born a noble. This helped him A LOT. If he hadn't, he probably would not have been able to get where he did despite all his cunning. But he squeezed his little bit of nobility and his short time as a Tully ward for every little bit of influence he could get, and then some. This is a man who played the Lannisters in order to make him a high lord.

A large part of LF's leveraging capital is putting his littlefinger between Lysa's legs and promising her more of it. I don't have the strongest admiration for his tactics, here.

Also, I don't think his jokes are funny, and it grates on me that he laughs at them.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

A large part of LF's leveraging capital is putting his littlefinger between Lysa's legs and promising her more of it. I don't have the strongest admiration for his tactics, here.

Also, I don't think his jokes are funny, and it grates on me that he laughs at them.

Which is something of the point no?

[butterbumps!]

Which is something of the point no?

He tells jokes that I don't consider funny, but laughs at them himself anyway, like a bad late-night comedian. It's a layer of added lameness to the jokes themselves. That's why I find Stannis hilarious in comparison-- he says much funnier things and is completely deadpan about it. The deadpan thing might be a matter of taste, but I stand by my assertion that I don't find LF's jokes particularly funny.

[Winterfell is Burning]

5. I'm keen on the idea that Marwyn is the one who castrated Varys (if he's really a eunuch, can't forget that one), mainly because I see a lot of people hoping that Marwyn is a "good guy" who will go to Essos and set Dany straight or teach her about her dragons or whatever. Seems much too good to be true to me, and as such I'm open to the possibility that Marwyn is much darker than we've been led to believe.

I don't really buy that idea because the timeline doesn't seem to fit- if Varys is safely in his middle age, and he was castrated (if he really was) when he was very young by a man, then that man would have to be old enough to be Varys father at least, currently be in his late 60's, maybe 70's, and Marwyn doesn't seem that old.

Not wanting Stannis around is something both Varys and LF share though. Hah, like Stannis hasn't got enough problems already! The small council dialogue from the time Stannis was in it must have been pure gold :laugh:

And that with Robert, Renly and Pycelle around :laugh: