Varys the Mastermind/ Littlefinger the Golddigger: A Comparison

[The Sleeper]

I think too much has been made of LF. He is basically an opportunist with contigencies and a personal grudge. His main asset is (was) that he is useful without being a threat (or at least that is what most of the high lords thought of him). Though he played his part in dragging the Starks in the dynastic conflict, there are elements he could not have anticipated (like his old dagger being used to assasinate Bran) and it seems to me, that more than revenge, his motive in this setting was to keep Stannis off the throne at all costs, as the latter would unceremoniously kick him out of his snug and comfortable place. Getting Harrenhal wasn't his idea to begin with, and as far as his involvement in Joffrey's murder goes I think either the Queen of Thornes gave him little choice in the matter or he himself recognised that the Tyrell's would be the true power from now on and decided to get on their good side while having something to blackmail them with. Probably a bit of both. Furthermore, I wouldn't quite say that his situatuion has improved during the course of the series. He had a discreet but integral presence at the court and was the goto guy for everyone in it. Now he holds the impressive titles of lord paramount of the Trident and of protector of the Vale. However, Harrenhal is basically a ruin and if he wants to exercise any authority over the riverlands he needs the support of either the Iron Throne or the Freys. The Iron Throne has other concerns at the moment and the Freys would be damned if they did all they did to become subbordinate to the likes of him. All this renders the title of lord paramount empty. Furthermore, he is starting to get the Vale Lords to tolerate him but would they go to war for him? I just don't see that, except perhaps for Grafton. His tenure is by definition temporary and tenuous at best. Also, Sansa's presence is a liability to him. If the Iron Throne found out he would be instantly be branded a traitor, burning that bridge for good. In short, I don't think that there is much of an endgame other than grab what you can and stay afloat.

That does not mean he is done. He is the sort of man to make opportunities out of problems. His move to the Vale, might mean that he correctly recognised the Iron Throne for the sinking ship it is and bailed before he went down with it. One has to wonder what he knows about Dany, Aegon Jr, the Iron Bank's support for Stannis, the Ironborn and the Martells and where he will stand as the situation unfolds.

Varys plays a more subtle game. He tiptoes for twenty years being useful to nobles who would without a second thought take his head off. I doubt that he ever outright lies. He can't afford to be cought at it. His ablility to saty alive and manipulate under these constraints is impressive on its own, but I can't help but wonder what he has to show for dancing the dance for twenty years or so.

[ab aeterno]

That does not mean he is done. He is the sort of man to make opportunities out of problems. His move to the Vale, might mean that he correctly recognised the Iron Throne for the sinking ship it is and bailed before he went down with it. One has to wonder what he knows about Dany, Aegon Jr, the Iron Bank's support for Stannis, the Ironborn and the Martells and where he will stand as the situation unfolds.

I've been wondering about this for a while, actually. Does the Iron Bank mostly ignore LF because he was good for business with them, or do they hold him responsible because while the Iron Throne actually defaulted on their loans, LF arranged them..?

[The Sleeper]

I don' t think an institution like the Iron Bank thinks in terms of individuals. To them LF was simply the master of coin of a country they did business with. That said, I think he kwows better than to cross them.

[ab aeterno]

I don' t think an institution like the Iron Bank thinks in terms of individuals. To them LF was simply the master of coin of a country they did business with. That said, I think he kwows better than to cross them.

I disagree, the Iron Bank seems to be very concerned with individuals.

From the wiki, as I don't have the actual lines:

Though all the free cities have their own banks, The Iron Bank is richer and more powerful then all the others combined and has a fearsome reputation when collecting debts. When princes or kings default on their debts or are foolish enough not to honor their agreements with the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank supports new princes and kings to appear. These new princes and kings then honor the previous debt along with paying back the money the bank loaned them in claiming their new power, lest they suffer the same fate as their predecessors.^[2] "The Iron Bank will have its due" is a common saying among Braavosi.

While they might not care about LF, he was in charge of the Iron Throne's finances, and he might well be in line for punishment for his role in the default.

[Spotted Cat]

I disagree, the Iron Bank seems to be very concerned with individuals.

From the wiki, as I don't have the actual lines:

Though all the free cities have their own banks, The Iron Bank is richer and more powerful then all the others combined and has a fearsome reputation when collecting debts. When princes or kings default on their debts or are foolish enough not to honor their agreements with the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank supports new princes and kings to appear. These new princes and kings then honor the previous debt along with paying back the money the bank loaned them in claiming their new power, lest they suffer the same fate as their predecessors.^[2] "The Iron Bank will have its due" is a common saying among Braavosi.

While they might not care about LF, he was in charge of the Iron Throne's finances, and he might well be in line for punishment for his role in the default.

i get the feeling that while LF was the master of coin, The Iron Bank was Silent. and suddenly they want their due from cersei?

may be LF paid the installments in ime

[ab aeterno]

i get the feeling that while LF was the master of coin, The Iron Bank was Silent. and suddenly they want their due from cersei?

may be LF paid the installments in ime

I'm sure he did, but he still (we can assume,) arranged all the loans that Cersei is refusing to repay. It wouldn't be unreasonable to consider that they would want punish him as well.

This is what I mean though- one way or another, LF is far more exposed to external/public threats than Varys is.

[Spotted Cat]

I'm sure he did, but he still (we can assume,) arranged all the loans that Cersei is refusing to repay. It wouldn't be unreasonable to consider that they would want punish him as well.

This is what I mean though- one way or another, LF is far more exposed to external/public threats than Varys is.

but varys is exposed to other kinds of danger.

he is out there day and night, in disguise, personally i am surprised that no one ever followed him and cut his throat all this time.

[Ice Turtle]

Littlefinger was making Seven Kingdoms more and more dependent on Iron Bank. I don't think they minded much. Crown is so much in dept that IB practically owns Westeros. Well at least till the Others depopulate it, but that is for another thread.

Anyway I always wondered, what if Aegon dies, what will Varys do does he have plan B? Or is he like cyvasse player, defeated when the king is killed? If yes he is much more vulnerable than LF.

[The Sleeper]

I disagree, the Iron Bank seems to be very concerned with individuals.

From the wiki, as I don't have the actual lines:

Though all the free cities have their own banks, The Iron Bank is richer and more powerful then all the others combined and has a fearsome reputation when collecting debts. When princes or kings default on their debts or are foolish enough not to honor their agreements with the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank supports new princes and kings to appear. These new princes and kings then honor the previous debt along with paying back the money the bank loaned them in claiming their new power, lest they suffer the same fate as their predecessors.^[2] "The Iron Bank will have its due" is a common saying among Braavosi.

While they might not care about LF, he was in charge of the Iron Throne's finances, and he might well be in line for punishment for his role in the default.

I believe this means that they do not care who's in charge. Only if he pays. They had no problem with Cersei until she stopped paying.

[Little Wing]

Anyway I always wondered, what if Aegon dies, what will Varys do does he have plan B? Or is he like cyvasse player, defeated when the king is killed? If yes he is much more vulnerable than LF.

Well, he did spirit Gendry away from Cersei's claws... so I'm guessing he has planned ahead in this respect. I'm not saying he puts much stock in Gendry, just that he has this covered probably, that he was thinking ahead - maybe he's hiding some other potential heirs, who knows...

Oh, and butterbumps! said earlier Varys kills his little birds when he no longer has need of them... I seem to have forgotten that part... :ack:

[David Selig]

Honestly I don't like Varys because I consider him and his powers too implausible. This is why I've never been able to take him really seriously. The idea that any king and his Hand would allow a lowborn foreigner to have hidden spies all over his own castle and be the only one who knows the secret passages without any serious supervision is ludicrous, even more so considering that Varys was loyal to the Targs. Varys's ability to know of everything said anywhere in KL 5 minutes after it happened is also really hard for me to accept. His spy network is too much for my suspension of disbelief, frankly.

[Spotted Cat]

Honestly I don't like Varys because I consider him and his powers too implausible. This is why I've never been able to take him really seriously. The idea that any king and his Hand would allow a lowborn foreigner to have hidden spies all over his own castle and be the only one who knows the secret passages without any serious supervision is ludicrous, even more so considering that Varys was loyal to the Targs. Varys's ability to know of everything said anywhere in KL 5 minutes after it happened is also really hard for me to accept. His spy network is too much for my suspension of disbelief, frankly.

may be the dude is actually a sorcerer

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Honestly I don't like Varys because I consider him and his powers too implausible. This is why I've never been able to take him really seriously. The idea that any king and his Hand would allow a lowborn foreigner to have hidden spies all over his own castle and be the only one who knows the secret passages without any serious supervision is ludicrous, even more so considering that Varys was loyal to the Targs. Varys's ability to know of everything said anywhere in KL 5 minutes after it happened is also really hard for me to accept. His spy network is too much for my suspension of disbelief, frankly.

They keep him because he's made himself indispensable ... and they know that if they ever got rid of him, he'd be selling out to the highest bidder in five minutes. Would you rather have the all-knowing spymaster working for you, or for someone else?

[ab aeterno]

I believe this means that they do not care who's in charge. Only if he pays. They had no problem with Cersei until she stopped paying.

True, but it seems as though they would want to punish those responsible for failing to pay them back.

The point of my original question was whether LF would be looked upon positively by the Iron Bank because he got the realm in so much debt towards them, or negatively if the IB wants either to replace the entire regime or believes that LF intentionally accrued debts that he knew Cersei wouldn't pay back.

It's not a major issue, but it's something I've pondered. Another reason that LF has been an antagonist to the IB- Stannis would be on the throne if it weren't for LF, and Stannis would have paid them back.

It's purely speculation, but my point is: LF is so openly involved in this and other issues that he is a very visible target. To be honest I think it's somewhat implausible that no-one has seriously tried to kill him off now that he's no longer staying in KL.

[redviper9]

Honestly I don't like Varys because I consider him and his powers too implausible. This is why I've never been able to take him really seriously. The idea that any king and his Hand would allow a lowborn foreigner to have hidden spies all over his own castle and be the only one who knows the secret passages without any serious supervision is ludicrous, even more so considering that Varys was loyal to the Targs. Varys's ability to know of everything said anywhere in KL 5 minutes after it happened is also really hard for me to accept. His spy network is too much for my suspension of disbelief, frankly.

Well, it's easy for me to see why Aerys would employ him; the Mad King was increasingly paranoid, and Varys's reputation for ferreting out secrets was such that it carried across the Narrow Sea. I'm sure that ability had a certain appeal to someone who saw threats lurking in every shadow.

A real interesting question is why Robert and Jon Arryn would keep him on. But remeber that Robert -- much like Tywin, actually -- was known for quickly bringing one-time enemies into the fold if he no longer saw a use in fighting them. In fact, Robert often turned enemies into friends (I'm thinking of the commanders he defeated at Summerhall, who went on to become some of his fiercest supporters). And Varys isn't the only holdover from Aerys's court: Barristan Selmy was pardoned and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard; Jaime was pardoned and allowed to remain on the Kingsguard (despite Ned's objections); and Grand Maester Pycelle stayed on as well (granted, only the Citadel can unmake a Grand Maester, but Robert could have executed the man).

And Varys, whatever else he might be, seems to be good at the whole Master of Whisperers gig. Robert and Jon Arryn might have figured it would be best to keep him and his already established spy network intact -- whatever misgivings they might have had about his background -- rather than starting afresh.

[Sworn Shield]

A foreigner is probably a good idea as master of whispers, Varys found that the contents of a mans purse was no where as valuable as his secrets. By making someone from Westeros the master of whispers you could end up making giving a lot of power and wealth to someone who could use it for their own causes. At least Vary's isn't a lord and doesn't have any armed forces, he can't make any direct open moves himself.

[Jon AS]

Well, he did spirit Gendry away from Cersei's claws... so I'm guessing he has planned ahead in this respect. I'm not saying he puts much stock in Gendry, just that he has this covered probably, that he was thinking ahead - maybe he's hiding some other potential heirs, who knows...

I don't think arranging for Gendry's escape was anything more devious than saving the kid's life. He was supposed to go to the wall, after all, which would have completely removed him from being used by Varys. Equally, Varys was responsible for sending gifts in Robert's name to Edric Storm, for which he seems to have had no ulterior motive whatsoever.

Varys really seems to have a soft spot for children and is probably trying to assuage some of the guilt he feels over his little birds and whatever other crimes are on his hands to make his plans work.

[butterbumps!]

It's not a major issue, but it's something I've pondered. Another reason that LF has been an antagonist to the IB- Stannis would be on the throne if it weren't for LF, and Stannis would have paid them back.

That's an interesting idea-- that he's trying to undermine the IB entirely. I think it's plausible that LF has some interests in Braavos in some capacity, but for some reason I don't think the IB is a target of his exactly. I think these might be 2 separate issues-- he doesn't want Stannis in a position of power, because Stannis would undoubtedly make him a foot shorter. As a second issue, I think he's trying to pit the IB against the ruling family as a means of undermining the Lannisters, not as a slight against the bank itself.

It's purely speculation, but my point is: LF is so openly involved in this and other issues that he is a very visible target. To be honest I think it's somewhat implausible that no-one has seriously tried to kill him off now that he's no longer staying in KL.

He's recognized for insolence, but I think he's shielded himself behind his "lowly" status so that he's mainly overlooked. Tyrion is onto him, but before he can take full action, Tywin supersedes his power. Tyrion had plans to replace LF's men and then LF himself, but given LF's "shadow banking" that miraculously produces money from thin air, he's needed by Tyrion, as funds are required to prepare for the Blackwater Battle. Tywin sorely miscalculates LF's mischief when he grants LF Harrenhal for his "services rendered' in terms of bringing the Tyrells; I don't believe that Tyrion would have made that mistake, actually.

I don't think arranging for Gendry's escape was anything more devious than saving the kid's life. He was supposed to go to the wall, after all, which would have completely removed him from being used by Varys. Equally, Varys was responsible for sending gifts in Robert's name to Edric Storm, for which he seems to have had no ulterior motive whatsoever.

Varys really seems to have a soft spot for children and is probably trying to assuage some of the guilt he feels over his little birds and whatever other crimes are on his hands to make his plans work.

I think Gendry is sent to the Wall as a means of preserving evidence of the incest, should such evidence be needed. When Aegon comes and the realm is in shambles, it will distract attention from questions of Aegon's legitimacy to turn the conversation back on the Lannisters with accusations of their illegitimacy.

I don't believe that Varys has a soft spot for children as such.

[David Selig]

They keep him because he's made himself indispensable ... and they know that if they ever got rid of him, he'd be selling out to the highest bidder in five minutes. Would you rather have the all-knowing spymaster working for you, or for someone else?

But what good is a spymaster you can't really trust and whose sources are never revealed? Much better to put someone in charge who you can rely on, even if he's not so competent. In this type of work being able to trust that your spymaster is not lying to you is paramount. What reason did Robert and Jon Arryn had to trust Varys and to allow him to be the only one able to roam the secret passages of the Red Keep and eavesdrop on everyone, including the King? None.

And of course, if they had got rid of him, they'd have executed him and wouldn't have allowed him to sell them out.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But what good is a spymaster you can't really trust and whose sources are never revealed? Much better to put someone in charge who you can rely on, even if he's not so competent. In this type of work being able to trust that your spymaster is not lying to you is paramount. What reason did Robert and Jon Arryn had to trust Varys and to allow him to be the only one able to roam the secret passages of the Red Keep and eavesdrop on everyone, including the King? None.

And of course, if they had got rid of him, they'd have executed him and wouldn't have allowed him to sell them out.

We know that they shouldn't have trusted him. The question is, did they — without the benefit of knowing what we know — have a reason to think he was unreliable? It seems like Varys gave them just enough reliable information for them to deem him reliable. He's not an idiot — he has to know that if his quality of intel goes down the crapper, they'll get rid of him. His plan relies on him having some sort of power hold in the capital and he'll do what he has to do maintain that; namely, convince the new regime that he's actually working for them in good faith.