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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

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I agree with Mirijam's thoughts on Sansa and needlework as well. I find it interesting that GRRM said Sansa wouldn't be involved with tasks required to run a castle--depending on the size of a holding, I thought women were supposed to take on the role of a Chatelaine (?).

My memory is hazy but he said something like they had people to make the actual butter. I was left with the impression that women were taught but functioned more as a Chatelaine as you say, similar to what Sansa was doing in the Vale.

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Ok, so, yes, I'd broken down a few days ago and got the iphone app. Brash asked me to put some Sansa-related findings, so here's some stuff I found important. If there's specific questions beyond this, by all means ask!

1. Olenna poisoned Joff (not Marg)

2. Sansa is in fact currently engaged to Harry the Heir "requiring only Harry's approval of Alayne."

3. Lysa Tully gave LF her maidenhead on the night LF got drunk after learning that Cat was to marry Brandon. The second time they sleep together is when Lysa gets pregnant during LF's recuperation after the duel. Lysa "nearly dies" from the moon tea Hoster gave her.

4. For my own personal satisfaction, it is written plain as day that Lysa begged Jon Arryn to appoint LF to the job at customs as well as the fact that Lysa beseeched her husband a second time to bring LF to KL.

5. Lysa's breaking point was when Jon decided to send Sweet robin to Dragonstone to foster. This was all the reason she needed to poison her husband.

6. Marrillion is dead, having jumped from his sky cell.

7. Sandor was given a "place of death." BUT, he's what the entry says of the matter:

"Arya leaves him to die alone in the woods instead. The Elder Brother of the Quiet ISle finds Clegane and ministers to him. The Elder Brother later reports to Brienne that the Hound is no more and that he left his helm to mark the place of his passing."

Let me know if there's something specific I should look up.

[pointless tangent] This seems like the "right place" to express the following enthusiasm: T-MINUS 21 DAYS TO LES MIS!!!! [/ pointless tangent]

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Sansa and Sandor quotes from the A World of Ice and Fire app:

Sandor's section:

"Though not so large as the Mountain, Sandor is still a powerful man with great courage and ferocious skill."

"Called the Hound for both his family's arms and his fierce loyalty to the Lannisters, he is soon made Prince Joffrey's sworn shield."

"Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her."

"In the process, the Hound finds and kills the butcher's boy, Mycah, at Queen Cersei's command."

"Sandor tells her the true story behind his burned face and says Gregor purposely killed one of his challengers in the lists, Ser Hugh of the Vale. However, Clegane then threatens to kill Sansa if she ever reveals these truths."

"It is noted that the Hound never aims his sword at his brother's unprotected head though Ser Gergor does not return the courtesy."

(several other events are not mentioned, but are mentioned in Sansa's section)

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him - as well as her song - makes him leave without her." (no mention of her cupping his cheek, or leaving his cloak, although that is mentioned in Sansa's section)

"Intending to ransom Arya to Robb Stark, Sandor's plans are foiled by the Red Wedding and he kills several men while escaping the slaughter." (no mention that he saves Arya's life, although it is mentioned in Arya's section: "... they arrive just as the slaughter of the Red Wedding begins. Clegane fights his way out, and when Arya tries to enter the castle and help her family, he knocks her unconscious")

(no mention that he brings up Sansa a dozen times, although there is the mention that he is "infatuated" with her, above)

"Tired and drunk, he confronts Polliver and the Tickler at the inn at the crossroads after they attempt to take him prisoner. He kills Polliver while Arya Stark stabs the Tickler repeatedly from behind. The injuries he receives in the fight become infected, however, and soon he is unable to travel further. Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him. But Arya leaves him to die alone in the woods instead." (no mention why he got so drunk so fast, hearing about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion)

"The Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle - the head of the septry - finds Clegane and ministers to him. The Elder brother later reports to Brienne of Tarth that the Hound is no more and that he left his helm to mark the place of his passing."

"Place of Death: Riverlands" (this is assumed, since Sandor is most likely the gravedigger)

Sansa's section:

"During a particularly vicious beating, Sansa considers pushing him off the castle walls, willing to fall with him as needs be, but instead the Hound leads her away and gently cleans the blood off her face."

"She attempts to compliment him on his prowess, but Clegane mocks her, calling her a pretty bird parroting what others have taught her. In a fit of drunken honesty, he tells her how Gregor once pressed his face to a brazier for daring to steal a toy, and speaks of his hatred for false knights like his brother. Then he threatens to kill her if she reveals his story to anyone." (no mention that she touches him)

"Joffrey has Sansa publicly beaten... The brutality of it leads the Hound to stand up to Joffrey, but Joffrey ignores him." (no mention of his cloak, although this is mentioned later)

"The great riot in King's Landing that follows Myrcella Baratheon's departure for Dorne - caused by Joffrey's callousness toward the unrest in the city as more and more people starve thanks to the war - nearly claims Sansa's life, but as she is dragged from her horse, the Hound appears, killing the men around them as he leaps onto her horse and carries her to safety."

(no mention of Sandor's role in the nameday scene, or the serpentine scene)

"Returning to her room, a stab of pain in her belly makes her falter, and the Hound catches her... He again reveals more of himself to her, saying he does not believe in the gods, and that any man who says there was no pleasure in killing is a liar."

"Then she returns to her own chambers, only to find the Hound there, drunk and wounded from the battle. Threatening to kill her if she screams, he tells her that he is the loser on the day, thanks to the Imp. He forces her to sing for him. Then, when Sansa fears he might try to kiss her, he departs the chamber, leaving behind his torn and bloodied white Kingsguard cloak, which Sansa hides away in a chest." (no mention that she cups his cheek and that she puts on his cloak and that he offers to take her with him and keep her safe, although this was mentioned in his section, nor that she later thinks about going with him)

(no more Sandor mentions, but overall, no sense of Sansa's inner life during ASOS and AFFC - no thoughts, no fantasies, no dreams, no memories, no regrets, no missing Sandor and her family; also no mention of Tyrion's unwanted move on her, and only one of Littlefinger's, their "attentions" are told from their perspectives in her section)

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Ok, so, yes, I'd broken down a few days ago and got the iphone app. Brash asked me to put some Sansa-related findings, so here's some stuff I found important. If there's specific questions beyond this, by all means ask!

ooh so much interesting stuff bumps, thanks :) the Olenna confirmation is nice to see (given the wild theories about Varys and Tywin) and I'm sure she had help from Garlan. Will comment more later. xx

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Nice one Le Cygne. It should also kaboom all the "he planned to rape her" theories since it says clearly he thought of taking her away. Hence it follows pretty closely the interpretations in this thread.

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snip>

<That feeling you get when you see that tze makes the point better than you ever could>

I agree, this very much reflects my thoughts when I saw the initial question.

Ok, so, yes, I'd broken down a few days ago and got the iphone app. Brash asked me to put some Sansa-related findings, so here's some stuff I found important. If there's specific questions beyond this, by all means ask!

1. Olenna poisoned Joff (not Marg)

2. Sansa is in fact currently engaged to Harry the Heir "requiring only Harry's approval of Alayne."

3. Lysa Tully gave LF her maidenhead on the night LF got drunk after learning that Cat was to marry Brandon. The second time they sleep together is when Lysa gets pregnant during LF's recuperation after the duel. Lysa "nearly dies" from the moon tea Hoster gave her.

4. For my own personal satisfaction, it is written plain as day that Lysa begged Jon Arryn to appoint LF to the job at customs as well as the fact that Lysa beseeched her husband a second time to bring LF to KL.

5. Lysa's breaking point was when Jon decided to send Sweet robin to Dragonstone to foster. This was all the reason she needed to poison her husband.

6. Marrillion is dead, having jumped from his sky cell.

7. Sandor was given a "place of death." BUT, he's what the entry says of the matter:

"Arya leaves him to die alone in the woods instead. The Elder Brother of the Quiet ISle finds Clegane and ministers to him. The Elder Brother later reports to Brienne that the Hound is no more and that he left his helm to mark the place of his passing."

Let me know if there's something specific I should look up.

[pointless tangent] This seems like the "right place" to express the following enthusiasm: T-MINUS 21 DAYS TO LES MIS!!!! [/ pointless tangent]

1. It's nice to see Olenna and not Marg. My interpretation is that this means she is the one to actually put the poison in the chalice but other Tyrells could still have been involved.

2. I'm not sure what to make of this and maybe I am reading to much in to it. It seems to confirm the final events of Sansa's story in Feast. Yet, it leaves me with the idea that Sansa (at the point of time in the story) is engaged to Harry, in other words LF's plan is going to happen or maybe my predictions are wrong.

4. I'm so glad you were right about this.

7. So, the ambigious nature here makes me think there is more to come. The Hound is no more so perhaps we are going to find out what is still there?

Nice one Le Cygne. It should also kaboom all the "he planned to rape her" theories since it says clearly he thought of taking her away. Hence it follows pretty closely the interpretations in this thread.

Why am I not surprised?

And also, what are you doing still awake?

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[snip]

[pointless tangent] This seems like the "right place" to express the following enthusiasm: T-MINUS 21 DAYS TO LES MIS!!!! [/ pointless tangent]

Popping in just to say OMG OMG OMG!!! WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS HOW EXCITED I AM FOR THIS MOVIE!!! (Have a nice night all).

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Nice one Le Cygne. It should also kaboom all the "he planned to rape her" theories since it says clearly he thought of taking her away. Hence it follows pretty closely the interpretations in this thread.

Exactly. Also I like that they said he was "infatuated". That hopefully kabooms the "brotherly" theories, too (in addition to all the textual evidence that he is crazy about her).

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Popping in just to say OMG OMG OMG!!! WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS HOW EXCITED I AM FOR THIS MOVIE!!! (Have a nice night all).

lol, I just knew this was the right thread! I've been "preparing" myself with the 10th Anniversary Royal Albert Hall performance (what I consider "canon" lol).

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And hey, Joffrey murdering Ned was the impetus for Sansa turning on the Lannisters. There would be an interesting thematic symmetry to having the prospect of Littlefinger going after Jon being what causes Sansa to turn on Littlefinger.

Can I just say that I LOVE this idea? I'm definitely of the mindset that Sansa's going to be the one who ultimately brings Baelish down, it's just a matter of how, when and why. It's been suggested that Sansa and Jon enjoy a congenial but distant relationship — Jon seems like he's the least close to her out of the siblings.

But, as you so astutely suggested, there are little hints that perhaps Jon and Sansa mean more to each other than might be perceived initially. Consider that Jon stands up to Stannis when it comes to Sansa's inheriting Winterfell. Jon remembers Sansa giving him tips for talking to girls. Sansa is thrilled to hear news of Jon becoming Lord Commander, and thinks of him fondly/longingly. And as you pointed out, Sansa's portrayal of Alayne — her understanding of how a bastard would behave — stems from her experience in observing Jon. When she thinks of bastards being strong, what she's really saying is that she views Jon as being strong.

Every single one of the Stark kids looks to be coming through to the endgame with something that makes them formidable — Bran has his greenseeing, Rickon is a de facto figurehead/whatever happened on Skagos, Arya is a child assassin and, as you once described it, there's "whatever the hell Jon is." I don't see why Sansa would be an exception, and it would make fantastic sense if it's the surviving family members being in danger that finally makes the Starks poke their heads out of hiding and show everyone what they've become.

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Lyanna's keeping us on our toes. We'll never know when to expect her now :wideeyed:

:P

Haha no, just woke up pregger sick and needed some distraction :P This thread delivers! Lots of thanks to bumps! and Le Cygne for posting it :)

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lol, I just knew this was the right thread! I've been "preparing" myself with the 10th Anniversary Royal Albert Hall performance (what I consider "canon" lol).

I can't wait either. I LOVE movies like this, wish there were more of them.

Lyanna's keeping us on our toes. We'll never know when to expect her now :wideeyed:

:P

:) LS is putting a lot of pressure on us, I can't be brilliant ALL the time.

Can I just say that I LOVE this idea? I'm definitely of the mindset that Sansa's going to be the one who ultimately brings Baelish down, it's just a matter of how, when and why. It's been suggested that Sansa and Jon enjoy a congenial but distant relationship — Jon seems like he's the least close to her out of the siblings.

But, as you so astutely suggested, there are little hints that perhaps Jon and Sansa mean more to each other than might be perceived initially. Consider that Jon stands up to Stannis when it comes to Sansa's inheriting Winterfell. Jon remembers Sansa giving him tips for talking to girls. Sansa is thrilled to hear news of Jon becoming Lord Commander, and thinks of him fondly/longingly. And as you pointed out, Sansa's portrayal of Alayne — her understanding of how a bastard would behave — stems from her experience in observing Jon. When she thinks of bastards being strong, what she's really saying is that she views Jon as being strong.

Every single one of the Stark kids looks to be coming through to the endgame with something that makes them formidable — Bran has his greenseeing, Rickon is a de facto figurehead/whatever happened on Skagos, Arya is a child assassin and, as you once described it, there's "whatever the hell Jon is." I don't see why Sansa would be an exception, and it would make fantastic sense if it's the surviving family members being in danger that finally makes the Starks poke their heads out of hiding and show everyone what they've become.

Yes, I agree. I think Sansa cares much more about her siblings than the text might superficially reveal. We have tze's post on Jon which was amazing. But, Sansa has been constantly yearning to go home to WF. The key word is home and all that it means. Home is family, it's being together with and surrounded by the people you love and who love you. We don't need specific memories from Sansa or any other Stark sibling to know this. Bran's comment about WF being broken is equally revealing here. It may have been sacked but what WF is and represents remains the same. The phrase home is where the heart is seems relevant here.

I'm also convinced the Starks are ultimately the central characters in the series. Martin has repeatedly told us that ASOIAF started with the image of the dead direwolf in the snow and the story grew from there. Characters and plot lines have been added to tell the story Martin wants to tell, but in the end, the Starks are still in the middle of it. For the sake of clarify, I should add that I consider Jon to be a Stark even though I believe in R+L=J. They are all developing their own skills but in ways that seem to complement each other. Their family dynamics are not the Lannisters with its infighting or the Tyrells pursuing power. I really do love the Stark family.

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Haha no, just woke up pregger sick and needed some distraction :P This thread delivers! Lots of thanks to bumps! and Le Cygne for posting it :)

Are you pregnant?!?!? How far along?!?! Pregger sick is the worst, I hate the feeling of walking around all the time feeling like I'm going to throw up.

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3. Lysa "nearly dies" from the moon tea Hoster gave her.

4. For my own personal satisfaction, it is written plain as day that Lysa begged Jon Arryn to appoint LF to the job at customs as well as the fact that Lysa beseeched her husband a second time to bring LF to KL.

I literally screamed "AHA!".

Also, I am pleased with the Hound thing.

"Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her"

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging ont he river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him - as well as her song - makes him leave without her"

HO HO HO

Looks like Christmas came early for me, ladies. I shall even change my avatar in accord.

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I'm also convinced the Starks are ultimately the central characters in the series. Martin has repeatedly told us that ASOIAF started with the image of the dead direwolf in the snow and the story grew from there. Characters and plot lines have been added to tell the story Martin wants to tell, but in the end, the Starks are still in the middle of it. For the sake of clarify, I should add that I consider Jon to be a Stark even though I believe in R+L=J. They are all developing their own skills but in ways that seem to complement each other. Their family dynamics are not the Lannisters with its infighting or the Tyrells pursuing power. I really do love the Stark family.

Yep, completely agree. As should be obvious (:P), for me it starts and ends with the Starks, and everyone else, even people I love like Stannis, is ultimately incidental.

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But, as you so astutely suggested, there are little hints that perhaps Jon and Sansa mean more to each other than might be perceived initially. Consider that Jon stands up to Stannis when it comes to Sansa's inheriting Winterfell. Jon remembers Sansa giving him tips for talking to girls. Sansa is thrilled to hear news of Jon becoming Lord Commander, and thinks of him fondly/longingly. And as you pointed out, Sansa's portrayal of Alayne — her understanding of how a bastard would behave — stems from her experience in observing Jon. When she thinks of bastards being strong, what she's really saying is that she views Jon as being strong.

I maintain, if Jon is resurrected, the theory that Sansa gets Ghost Jon as her direwolf.

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Yep, completely agree. As should be obvious (:P), for me it starts and ends with the Starks, and everyone else, even people I love like Stannis, is ultimately incidental.

Yep same here, also agree on that something related to family will "trigger" Sansa and Arya into action eventually. It just seems set up that way from the beginning and it would add nice symmetry, too.

Kittykat, I'm 5 months gone, coming up to entering no 6 in about a week or so. I try not to keep count since it's depressing to think how long it's left :P

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"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging ont he river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him - as well as her song - makes him leave without her.°

Excellent. It seems the Spanish and French translators didn't interpret the "take" part incorrectly when they chose the "take away" meaning, after all...

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Sansa and Sandor quotes from the A World of Ice and Fire app:

"Tired and drunk, he confronts Polliver and the Tickler at the inn at the crossroads after they attempt to take him prisoner. He kills Polliver while Arya Stark stabs the Tickler repeatedly from behind. The injuries he receives in the fight become infected, however, and soon he is unable to travel further. Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him. But Arya leaves him to die alone in the woods instead." (no mention why he got so drunk so fast, hearing about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion)

Also no mention of the other controversial comments he makes in that scene. I guess some things will always be left ambiguous and up to reader interpretation, but the other information we get about him "working up the courage" to take her with him should necessitate a rethinking by those who believe he actually wished he had raped and murdered her.

"Then she returns to her own chambers, only to find the Hound there, drunk and wounded from the battle. Threatening to kill her if she screams, he tells her that he is the loser on the day, thanks to the Imp. He forces her to sing for him. Then, when Sansa fears he might try to kiss her, he departs the chamber, leaving behind his torn and bloodied white Kingsguard cloak, which Sansa hides away in a chest." (no mention that he offered to take her with him and keep her safe and she later thought about going with him)

The sequence in that description is a bit off. Her fear of the kiss comes before the forced singing. And no mention that she wore the bloody cloak before hiding it in the chest.

Anyways, thanks for putting this info together Le Cygne :)

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