From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't think Jon Arryn is quite the brilliant man himself. He shares a good amount of the kingdom's ills himself as he was the Hand. So, actually I can believe he didn't realize it and/or didn't care.

I agree.

Plus logically, most people probably knew LF fought a duel for *Cat*, not Lysa. Hence they probably assumed his interest was in Cat, not Lysa, and that whomever had knocked up Lysa was someone else. The duel with Cat actually works as deflection there, since people will assume he had something with Cat, and that the Lysa rumours were probably just some mix up, or expanded upon like rumours have a tendency to.

[brashcandy]

And hey, Joffrey murdering Ned was the impetus for Sansa turning on the Lannisters. There would be an interesting thematic symmetry to having the prospect of Littlefinger going after Jon being what causes Sansa to turn on Littlefinger.

Great post tze, and I agree that she's going to feel relief more than anything else when she finds out. I think her hearing the ghost wolf as she's coming down the mountain already aligns her symbolically with Jon's interests and places her at odds with Littlefinger who wants her to be Alayne Stone in her heart. Jon is no longer illegitimate and Sansa never truly becomes Alayne where it matters. I also believe that the ending of her final chapter in AFFC, with LF asking for another kiss was significant, and not for the dreaded fear that Sansa will be subjected to more of his creepy advances.

If we think of what happened the last time LF took a kiss from Sansa - in the snow castle chapter of ASOS, another scene where her associations with Winterfell and her family are at their strongest- we see that this gave Sansa the confidence to approach Lysa with the request to be sent away from the Eyrie. As it so happens back then, she was also facing another unwanted betrothal, at that time to her cousin Sweetrobin. A lot has changed since then, mainly with Sansa realising just how dangerous LF can be.

So if we can take that chapter as representative of how Sansa feels about these kinds of arrangements and unwanted sexual advances (along with her enduring connection to the North), I'd have to argue that she's going to actively resist LF in TWOW, except this time she has a much better understanding of who she's dealing with, she herself is stronger and shrewder, and she's no longer isolated in the Eyrie.

[Pod The Impaler]

Bahahaha, I laughed and laughed when I read that about LF! (And really, did Jon Arryn not smell a rat when 1) he knew Lysa had been pregnant before he married her and 2) Lysa wanted to keep her "childhood friend" with her?

Actually, it was stated explicitly in the text that Jon Arryn was matched with Lysa because she was proven to be fertile. In Westerosi society, a girl is considered "spoiled" by most by having been deflowered (much less knocked up), devaluing her on the marriage market. However, for an older man with trouble conceiving, a young wife (of suitably high birth) who is provably not barren was actually what he was after. Once she was deflowered, Hoster could no longer offer her to any young groom of a suitably worthy family, so she was likely to end up either with someone her younger of less-than-great pedigree, or else someone of great noble pedigree but whose own situation was somewhat desperate. Jon Arryn qualified - old, no heirs, and about to start a rebellion against the Mad King (for which Riverlands support was crucial). Demand met supply, and thus Lysa became Lysa Arryn.

In that society, a woman's value is a matter of perception - there is no hard and fast rule. Each potential match is a matter of what the respective families want out of it, and what they expect they can get - but this is not the same thing in all cases.

Eddard Stark was happy at first to see Sansa marry Joffrey, until he realized that Joffrey was an unredeemable scumbag and their families were soon to be enemies in any case. Crown Prince or not, he was ready to break that off just to protect her and that shows he did not consider family prestige or advancement to be all-important, compared to the fact that his daughter would clearly be abused and miserable. An arranged marriage was one thing - a toxic one quite another.

Arianne Martell was actually offended by being offered to random dullards and old men, but was really vexed her was that she felt her father could do so much better. When she learned it was Viserys he had really intended for her, her estimation of her father's love for her improved drastically. Genna Lannister was matched to a Frey and loved her brother Tywin for speaking out and basically saying the Frey was not good enough for her (in terms of value, not in terms of character or desire).

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I also recall that Edric Storm's mother was married off to some knight. In her case I suppose the fact that she bore the king's bastard somewhat exonerated her.

In Jon Arryn's case, I was wondering more about the potential that Lysa and Petyr were still carrying on an affair after Lysa and Jon married. I definitely see the point that Lysa's proven fertility was part of her attraction, but if she wanted to keep the man who impregnated her close by and pushed her husband to get that man a cushy job, that's a little odd.

But back to Sansa. I keep thinking of her and Lysa as LF brackets in his story. LF rose to power because a Tully woman was in love with him and would do anything for him. He's most likely going to fall from power because a woman who only looks like a Tully would do anything...to get rid of him. And thanks to Lysa's ranting, Sansa now knows everything. When Tyrion became Petyr's successor as Master of Coin, he remarked how complicated and outright suspicious LF's ledgers were. I wonder if Petyr is up to financial shenanigans in the Vale and will be caught - perhaps embezzling is another thing he will confide in Sansa about.

As far as Sansa and Jon go - I know that Sansa does not want to be fought over for her claim, and may well consider any claim an albatross (I've actually said this before myself, and realize now that my previous post contradicted my own statements!). I do wonder if she will feel, not disenfranchised, but that her family rejected her on a personal level? She is growing into the world of practical politics and might just realize that it wasn't about her personally, it was about keeping any and all Lannisters the hell away from Winterfell.

[Devaki Khanna]

FOUR FLORIANS AND A JONQUIL:

(This is a weird idea I had while writing the other huge analysis - it didn't really fit with what I was doing, so consider it bonus material.)

The first of April, some do say

Is set apart for All Fools' Day;

But why the people call it so,

Nor I, nor they themselves, do know.

- Poor Robin's Almanac (1760), "All Fools' Day".

There's the historical tradition of the royal Fool, a jester whose acts like fool for the entertainment of the court.

It exists in ASOIAF as well. (We have Moon Boy, Butterbumps, and Patchface, for example.)Physical clowning is part of it, singing and dancing, and some stage magic tricks.

The most interesting part is that the Fool gets to make jokes at the expense of the high and mighty, to say things no one else can get away with saying. The position itself shows that even in a society where power is so absolute, mockery has its place, and that the system in a way needs to be mocked from time to time.

As it relates to Sansa Stark, we of course have the example of Florian and Jonquil, which seems to be her favourite romantic story. It is the story of a homely and humble fool who also was heroic and as a hero, won the heart of the fair maiden Jonquil.

In considering Sansa's experiences, I got an idea in my head that Sansa Stark is in her own way replaying the story Florian and Jonquil, reprising the role of the maiden in relation to a fool - someone who mocks (or is a mockery) of the society she lives in.

So if she is Jonquil the maiden, who is her fool ? It struck me that there are actually four fools she has had in her life. Each one has his own niche, mocking a specific aspect of Westerosi society and its notions of propriety. Each in his own way seems to "rescue" Sansa - not lierally but symbolically.

Dontos Hollard: What Dontos mocks is the bravery and might and knight is supposed to have. The truth is, he's not very brave or mighty. He's a drunk, somewhat fearful, and nobody at all fears him. He "rescues" Sansa only because she rescued him first. Even when she was rescued by him phsycially, she makes him brave like a knight again (thus rescuing him again in a way).

Tyrion Lannister: What Tyrion mocks is the principles of family, duty, and morality. His morality is certainly not of the pure and pious sort, and his own compassion is at war with both his internal nihilism and the selfishness he was raised to follow. He does his duty grudgingly because it really involves serving the wrong side, but he still does it well and yet is not given credit even for that. His family is a nightmare, where even the principles of familial love are either non-existent or else twisted into soul-scarring manipulation. Like a good fool though, he stings people with his wit. Tyrion also japes about being in motley, and is occasionally insulted by others as being fit for it. He is the fool who "rescues" her from having to deal with his family, and all the while she embodies all these vaunted principles he mocks but can never have because of where his came from.

Petyr Baelish: What Littlefinger mocks is the idea of nobility and the system of bloodlines. He has turned the system of strength in bloodlines to his advantage, and by mastering it, has made himself able to turn it against itself. Lord Baelish plays the part of the perfect Lord, with impeccable manners and exquisite wit, but under that mockingbird sigil is a man who seems to have nothing but contempt for his peers and for the system that made them (and him) so powerful. One might think his goal is to make such a mockery of nobility that he actually destroys it. His "rescue" of Sansa seems to be one of imparting some part of that cynicism onto her, allowing her to shed her naivete and allow her to see the true motivations behind system that is built upon some very big lies.

Sandor Clegane: What the Hound mocks is the ideas of chivalry and gallantry. He is cynical too, but the target of his mockery is the fanciful notions that surround the role of warriors in Westeros. To him knighthood is a not an honour but a black mark, the sign that one is a hypocrite as well as a killer. His rough way of speaking and living show his contempt for a system that cannot look in its own face, and see the brutal unvarnished truth that underlies the myths of what warriors do. He "rescues" Sansa from thinking of knights as glamourous or well-intentioned, so as she grows into a lady she understands her protectors may be the ones she needs protection from.

Think of Dorothy and the three or four characters who follow her searching for the Wizard--reminds me of that.

[brashcandy]

Another small report from the app relating to Sansa and Littlefinger.

[Devaki Khanna]

Far from being an expert in psychology, it's based on my personal perception, so is probably totally wrong ;). The time in the Vale constitutes an important passage because Sansa gets to be in continous contact with wit and intelligence. At KL, she saw only Lannisters and she learned how to defend herself but she does not consider them outside of their family name. She does not appreciate their qualities and that is completely understandable in her situation.

But, with LF she is forced to come to terms with the fact that the world is not just potential knights and their enemies but there is the figure of the person who decides the matchups in the tournament. Moreover, LF in his boosting phase explains to her the reasoning behind his plots. Whether or not he is telling the truth is irrelevant in my reasoning. She is exposed to the logic behind politics in Westeros by the Master himself, a Master she doesn't trust but that saved her life. And if I understand anything about Sansa's progress, she is now becoming a realist, and once one sheds the dreams and the hopes of a child, intelligence seems a fascinating quality to have. She is now realizing that here is a man that is not honourable, nor strong, nor a king and yet Ned Stark is dead, countless of strong knights are dead, Joffrey is dead but LF is not only alive, he seems to have everything under control. As a young girl in Winterfell, Sansa doesn't seem to have brought up to appreciate smart boys and men. KL changed her. The scene with Joffrey when she remarks that Robb is always in the thickest of the battle clearly shows that she herself has understood that being smart is the only way to survive and maybe the best way to get rid of enemies. Now, her constant company is one of the smartest men in the kingdom.

Sansa in the Vale seems to me a work in progress, so I cannot predict how much and in what ways LF will influence her. My guess is that she will not inherit LF's snubbery towards all those who can't keep up with him (not when she is losing her initial snubbery) but she will probably look for that intellectual acumen in people from now on and recognize it as a potential evil trait but a necessary one in Westeros. If that is the case, then the Hound could be found lacking in this sense. I have always pictured him as street-smart but not capable of truly playing the Game of Thrones. Granted, she might enjoy the power that comes with being smarter than everybody else and thus wanting to find someone who is beneath her in this regard but this seems an evil version of Sansa and I don't think she'll get there.

I think, after her experience of living in the Vale with Littlefinger, she will want a man with integrity and intelligence. Yes, Sandor is honest, street-smart and a fearsome warrior--but do fighting skills keep you alive all the time? Robb won his battles, but lost the war of ravens and quills. LF is amoral, it is true, but he is skilled enough to survive KL SO FAR. However, like all true criminals, he needs to boast about hs crimes to someone--and who else does he find but this naive fourteen-year-old orphan who is totally in his power? Will she always remain in his power?

[Kittykatknits]

Another small report from the app relating to Sansa and Littlefinger.

I saw that just a bit ago and it had me wondering a bit but I don't really think it changes much when it comes to our suspicions of LF or how Sansa is likely to react to the latest news. He already told her the importance of knowing what a man wants and sold the Harry bethrothal as almost a seduction technique. I don't think this is an indicator of success at all really. The app also confirmed that LF was having an affair with Lysa while in KL and that she was the one that got him his positions in the Vale and KL. So, if seducing the opposite sex worked for him, he seems to think it will work for Sansa as well.

But, LF really does not know Sansa, she's been playing a part for his benefit and because of the need to protect herself. Sansa has shown how she wins allies and it isn't through seduction.

I'd also like to add that the app doesn't say anything about Cersei's valonquar and it most especially did not use the word queen either!!! That kinda made me feel good.

[brashcandy]

I saw that just a bit ago and it had me wondering a bit but I don't really think it changes much when it comes to our suspicions of LF or how Sansa is likely to react to the latest news. He already told her the importance of knowing what a man wants and sold the Harry bethrothal as almost a seduction technique. I don't think this is an indicator of success at all really. The app also confirmed that LF was having an affair with Lysa while in KL and that she was the one that got him his positions in the Vale and KL. So, if seducing the opposite sex worked for him, he seems to think it will work for Sansa as well.

But, LF really does not know Sansa, she's been playing a part for his benefit and because of the need to protect herself. Sansa has shown how she wins allies and it isn't through seduction.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. I do think it highlights/confirms that LF isn't some great mastermind. Ultimately, as you noted, he seems to figure that what worked for him will work for her, i.e. manipulating the other sex. He basically spelt this out in the final chapter when he told her about Harry. So it does give credit to our assessment that what Sansa has to do is to play the game by her standards, since LF isn't exactly relaying anything particularly valuable or empowering.

I'd also like to add that the app doesn't say anything about Cersei's valonquar and it most especially did not use the word queen either!!! That kinda made me feel good.

Yes, you've always pointed this out; it was nice to see that it was underscored :)

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. I do think it highlights/confirms that LF isn't some great mastermind. Ultimately, as you noted, he seems to figure that what worked for him will work for her, i.e. manipulating the other sex. He basically spelt this out in the final chapter when he told her about Harry. So it does give credit to our assessment that what Sansa has to do is to play the game by her standards, since LF isn't exactly relaying anything particularly valuable or empowering.

My interpretation is that he got in to the Vale by manipulating the opposite sex and now thinks that Sansa will need to do the same. He's also made it very clear that Sweetrobin will have to do in order for his plan to succeed. From that last conversation and the app, I'm now thinking that LF has been operating under the belief that Sweetrobin was going to eventually die anyways. But, by actually killing him, LF can assert more control over the exact time of his death. HtH is entering the picture not because of some grand gesture to Sansa but as a way to continue his control. This time around, he needs Sansa to continue the manipulation with the method that has proven most successful for him in the past.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I saw that just a bit ago and it had me wondering a bit but I don't really think it changes much when it comes to our suspicions of LF or how Sansa is likely to react to the latest news. He already told her the importance of knowing what a man wants and sold the Harry bethrothal as almost a seduction technique. I don't think this is an indicator of success at all really. The app also confirmed that LF was having an affair with Lysa while in KL and that she was the one that got him his positions in the Vale and KL. So, if seducing the opposite sex worked for him, he seems to think it will work for Sansa as well.

But, LF really does not know Sansa, she's been playing a part for his benefit and because of the need to protect herself. Sansa has shown how she wins allies and it isn't through seduction.

I've bolded the sentence for emphasis. Littlefinger does not know Sansa at all and that will be his downfall. He sees a Cat look-a-like, only more malleable, whom he can groom and make his Galatea. Oops! And just saw Brash's post: haha, no, LF is a great mastermind in HIS own mind. He and Euron Greyjoy really ought to get together.

Sansa is a great beauty, but I cannot recall her ever using that beauty as a weapon. It doesn't occur to her to bat her eyes or flash her boobs to get her way (unlike Cersei). Her temperament (too much like Ned) and her upbringing (it would never in a million years ever occur to Cat or Ned to urge their daughter to use seduction techniques!) go against it.

I did download the app and it confirms that Lysa and Petyr were carrying on an affair even after she and Jon Arryn were married (which makes me wonder about Lysa's statement in SoS to the effect of "I've waited all these years" - perhaps she meant after she fled to the Eyrie). Could SR be Petyr's son? I know there's absolutely no way to prove it at this point, but the possibility makes LF's plans to do in SR even worse, if that's possible.

The app also states that Petyr is sending "Alayne" with a huge dowry; I know he's been paying Anya Waynwood's debts but I guess he's really sweetening the deal here. If "Alayne" won't allure Harry sexually, her "father" will buy him with money. Anya Waynwood is willing to have the heir to the Vale marry a bastard daughter of a minor lord? Either she's broke as a joke or she herself (perhaps in cahoots with Bronze Yohn Royce, who has met Sansa and her family) knows or suspects that "Alayne" isn't who she seems to be.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hahahaha love that the app confirmed that LF had an affair with Lysa in Kings Landing. I've argued that all along.

Also: hello strengthened theory of Sweetrobin actually being Petyr's son, not Jon Arryn's, making the whole tragedy of LF wanting Sweetrobin dead so much worse.

[Kittykatknits]

. I did download the app and it confirms that Lysa and Petyr were carrying on an affair even after she and Jon Arryn were married (which makes me wonder about Lysa's statement in SoS to the effect of "I've waited all these years" - perhaps she meant after she fled to the Eyrie). Could SR be Petyr's son? I know there's absolutely no way to prove it at this point, but the possibility makes LF's plans to do in SR even worse, if that's possible.

There are theories floating around that SR is his son. I think it is very possible as I also suspect that Jon Arryn was infertile.

My take on Lysa's comment on waiting all these years was about being able to live in the open with LF and not hide their relationship. On their wedding night, she intended to to scream loudly so that everyone would hear. She wanted him on her terms and to her mind, she got that.

[brashcandy]

Also: hello strengthened theory of Sweetrobin actually being Petyr's son, not Jon Arryn's, making the whole tragedy of LF wanting Sweetrobin dead so much worse.

Makes you wonder if LF doesn't at least have some suspicion that Sweetrobin could be his child, and simply isn't concerned about adding kinslayer to the rest of his crimes.

[Quiet Isle]

So one minute, here's a guy who is sobbing on his deathbed because he stood by while THE KING ordered someone else to beat her because he knew his own bodyguard wouldn't hurt her. And the next minute, he's sorry he didn't rape her when he cried after she sang "a pretty little song", and sorry he didn't kill her after braving a 30 to 1 mob to save her life? That never made any sense.

He couldn't do anything to help her while in Court. and those lines have been misinterpreted.

1) he had no idea she was going to be in her room when he went there, so he didn't go for rape.

He was distraught and confused and he acted out in rage, which is what he has to overcome for his major character arc.

and i think she may have slightly empathed him while in that scene.

2) if you look at his "deathbed" scene, it is both a confessional about what he wished he had done to save her from the beatings. and it is also a screamfest to arya saying things that he thought would make her kill him. it's what he wanted at that point. he has no good name, no lands, no one to take arya to which might get him employment in reward, and he did have feelings for sansa.

I also think that last line of "i should have ___d her bloody, and ripped her heart out before i left her for that dwarf" may end up being prophetic. I think they will end up together, having fallen in love. He's going to die. and She will end up with Tyrion.

[Kittykatknits]

Makes you wonder if LF doesn't at least have some suspicion that Sweetrobin could be his child, and simply isn't concerned about adding kinslayer to the rest of his crimes.

I can't imagine how he would no at least suspect. Dark-haired and small stature, sounds kind of familiar?

I also wonder if some of Lysa's behavior could be explained if she thought Sweetrobin was LF's child as well. The first time around, she was forced to abort and it almost killed her. So, she finally has the child the two of them were meant to have together. Maybe an extension of her statement that she didn't want to hide anymore?

LF doesn't strike me as the superstitious type so I don't think he would care about kin-slaying. Although, he did have that comment about Harrenhal being cursed and how he never intended to occupy it.

[brashcandy]

I can't imagine how he would no at least suspect. Dark-haired and small stature, sounds kind of familiar?

Indeed. So he can take his place with the worst fathers in Westeros, right alongside the esteemed Tywin Lannister, Randyll Tarly and Craster.

I think, after her experience of living in the Vale with Littlefinger, she will want a man with integrity and intelligence. Yes, Sandor is honest, street-smart and a fearsome warrior--but do fighting skills keep you alive all the time? Robb won his battles, but lost the war of ravens and quills. LF is amoral, it is true, but he is skilled enough to survive KL SO FAR. However, like all true criminals, he needs to boast about hs crimes to someone--and who else does he find but this naive fourteen-year-old orphan who is totally in his power? Will she always remain in his power?

I'm still struggling to understand this perception that Sandor is all brawn and little brains. Sure, he's no intellectual, but from what we've seen he's smart and sensitive. When he told Arya that Robb had need of him I didn't get the impression that he was talking about his fighting skills, and now that he's spending time on the Quiet Isle he has a chance to increase his knowledge through reading and study. And let's recall that the relationship between Sansa and Sandor developed through their conversations, and we've seen Sansa's appreciation for what she learnt from him during her time in KL.

[DrunkSister]

Lysa "nearly dies" from the moon tea Hoster gave her.

Pearl Buck described going through an abortion after taking abortificant in her novel The Mother. I don't have it in English though.

It is really brutally honest. A peasant woman abandoned by her husband gets pregnant with another man and she must abort or there will be a huge outcry in the village. Her cousin gets the drug and they go to a hut where she drinks it, looses her baby and nearly dies herself. She never fully recovers either, though I don't remember if she is left barren.

[ArabellaVidal]

The app also states that Petyr is sending "Alayne" with a huge dowry; I know he's been paying Anya Waynwood's debts but I guess he's really sweetening the deal here. If "Alayne" won't allure Harry sexually, her "father" will buy him with money. Anya Waynwood is willing to have the heir to the Vale marry a bastard daughter of a minor lord? Either she's broke as a joke or she herself (perhaps in cahoots with Bronze Yohn Royce, who has met Sansa and her family) knows or suspects that "Alayne" isn't who she seems to be.

Thanks for this. To comment_

[Queen of Winter]

I'm still struggling to understand this perception that Sandor is all brawn and little brains. Sure, he's no intellectual, but from what we've seen he's smart and sensitive. When he told Arya that Robb had need of him I didn't get the impression that he was talking about his fighting skills, and now that he's spending time on the Quiet Isle he has a chance to increase his knowledge through reading and study. And let's recall that the relationship between Sansa and Sandor developed through their conversations, and we've seen Sansa's appreciation for what she learnt from him during her time in KL.

I think it's safe to say that Sandor is what we'd call today "street smart" or "life smart". He definitely went to the school of hard knocks! :frown5:

And that's a very good point about him having a chance to access books and "higher knowledge" while on the QI. I really can't wait to see what happens with him when he "comes out the other side". It'll be interesting for sure!