From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

[brashcandy]

I guess you kinda have to play connect the dots a bit with Sansa's and Jaime's sections, don't you Le Cygne? :) I don't have the app, but based on what you're saying Martin is still playing it safe with a lot of the Sansa material, and the absence of info concerning her inner thoughts and feelings seems to confirm that the key to unlocking Sansa's arc lies in what we've always surmised - the very subtle, sometimes easy to miss reactions and observations that she makes throughout the story.

[Le Cygne]

I like your positive spin. :)

Her section is too male gaze.

I added more, it was kind of fascinating...

[Pod The Impaler]

Well, it is released as the official Song of Ice and Fire app, and GRRM himself calls it "official". Link here.

I don't mean it is unofficial, I mean people are making a mistake if they think it is any more than summaries put together by (most likely) an editor drawing from the source material. Plus, being an app, it is changeable / updatable, should future revelations (in the books) render any part of it in error or obsolete. There may even be deliberate redacting of content or even disinformation, just to keep fans surprised or spoiler-free. In other words, it is another secondary source.

If anyone goes around suggesting " [character X] is dead, [character Y]s motivation is [blah blah blah], because the app said so", while the book suggests possibilities to the contrary, well I would urge caution or skepticism.

I think Sandor is quite intelligent. I agree that people underestimate him based upon his brawn, just as people underestimate Sansa due to her beauty and sweetness.

Also - and it is clear when we see Randyll Tarly's attitude toward Sam - I think that most men were not raised to be "intellectuals" but to be warriors. They were taught to read and write, but as I see it, those below the rank of great lord mostly got reading, writing and math to get by in life. Someone like Ned Stark would have been carefully educated because he had to administer a vast territory with all the lesser lords reporting to him, so he had to know law, history, probably a great deal of accounting, and other more difficult subjects. Catelyn, too, as she was heiress to the Riverlands for much of her childhood. But someone like Sandor who was the second son of a minor lord and thus not expected to do much but fight would have got a very simple education.

Well, Sandor is the second son of a minor lord, that's true, but I'm sure he got some education along the way. He is clever in his own way - no, not like Samwell or Tyrion, but he is what you could call "streetwise". Remember, he ran away from home when it was clear Gregor was going to rule over House Clegane lock, stock, and barrel. In terms of social class, Sandor is a knight, minus the vows, but in terms of attitude and methods, he's more like a sellsword. Streetwise, pragmatic, cynical - and aware enough of "the game" taking place around him that he can survive it.

Now as for Randyll Tarly - he is actually not a "typical" lord. Most of the Lords you see in Westeros are quite happy to have well-educated sons. Tarly is more like "jock dad" who considers being book-smart as something effeminate and weak. I think this is just some personal prejudice of his, the mark of a man who is just very closed-minded and rigid. Obviously he is educated well enough in things like tactics, strategy, and law, to take on military and leadership tasks. As long as knowledge is the not-nerdy kind, he tolerates it.

[Kittykatknits]

<snip>

Thanks for coming over here and pointing this out. I have a much stronger understanding of what you were getting at now and can see your point. The app seems to focus on stuff happening around Sansa, rather than on her as a character. It's LF, Tyrion, Sandor. It's not about Sansa as it relates to them.

I'll go with brashcandy's positive spin on this for now but I have some thoughts brewing that I want to bring back here later today as I need to step away from the computer now. :(

[Le Cygne]

Thanks, I thought I got it all out, then realized there was more.

Also, the intro of the sections, they say something nice about the character. Sandor is brave, Tyrion is intelligent, Littlefinger is intelligent, here's what they said about Sansa:

"beautiful... sweet, innocent, charming... excels at courtly arts expected of a lady"

Which is nice, but she's also brave and smart.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for coming over here and pointing this out. I have a much stronger understanding of what you were getting at now and can see your point. The app seems to focus on stuff happening around Sansa, rather than on her as a character. It's LF, Tyrion, Sandor. It's not about Sansa as it relates to them.

I'll go with brashcandy's positive spin on this for now but I have some thoughts brewing that I want to bring back here later today as I need to step away from the computer now. :(

Yeah, I just read Le Cygne's edit, which is a bit disturbing actually. My positive spin was related to the post she made before the edit which talked more of how Jaime's dreams etc were left out, along with Sansa's inner feelings which lent gave a disjointed feel to the narrative. I'm still standing behind my essential point that we need to focus on the subtle events in Sansa's story, but to speak to what Le Cygne recently revealed, I definitely want to voice my objection to how Sansa's section is written in the app. She's already accused of being passive and weak by so many readers, and to relate the events in her story in this manner may only serve to foreground such opinions. The thing is is that Sansa is predominantly active in her thoughts and in other "quiet" moments, so if Martin is deliberately trying to avoid speculation on these important scenes, the writers may have veered too much towards relating her story through the actions of others. Perhaps bumps! or someone else who has the app can weigh in, but based on Le Cygne's report, I do think it warrants a little bit of side-eye :)

[straits]

This is supposed to be Sansa's section in the app:

snip

I don't expect interpretations of thoughts or dreams, just some sense that she's a person, too.

It looks to me that the writers of these sections of aSoIaF focus on what was done and what was said. And since Sansa's PoV mainly takes place between the temples of her head rather than going from one place to another or constantly scheming with people, you won't get a lot of substance about her from that text.

[Quiet Isle]

It looks to me that the writers of these sections of aSoIaF focus on what was done and what was said. And since Sansa's PoV mainly takes place between the temples of her head rather than going from one place to another or constantly scheming with people, you won't get a lot of substance about her from that text.

yet.

[Gannicus]

For what it's worth The app sheds little light on anything. Seeing how apps can updated the information is bound to change as new books are released. Having the place and date of Sandor's death means little imo.

[Le Cygne]

brashcandy, I was afraid Jaime was off topic, sorry. But I tried to make that point on the memory lapse thread.

sraits, if that's the case, then why "Tyrion seems" and "Littlefinger seems" and Lothar is "infatuated". These are impressions of what the characters are feeling. We also see characterization in other sections. Someone is desirous, furious, solicitous, oh, look here. :)

Tyrion's section, about the marriage:

"Tyrion proves solicitous of his new bride though she refuses to consumate the marriage."

This is his section, and we hear nothing about her other than she refused him (unlike her section where we heard about how he seems, his duties, etc.)

And see how a word or two added to his sentence might change that around a bit:

"Tyrion proves solicitous of his new bride and attempts to bed her, but she refuses to consumate the forced marriage."

[brashcandy]

For what it's worth The app sheds little light on anything. Seeing how apps can updated the information is bound to change as new books are released. Having the place and date of Sandor's death means little imo.

I think the problem we're noting is not with the dearth of info, but in how the events are written. For example, if we're reading Sansa's section concerning the marriage to Tyrion, we should be told how she feels about it, the objections that she raised etc, not about what Tyrion says and does exclusively.

[Gannicus]

Yeah, I just read Le Cygne's edit, which is a bit disturbing actually. My positive spin was related to the post she made before the edit which talked more of how Jaime's dreams etc were left out, along with Sansa's inner feelings which lent gave a disjointed feel to the narrative. I'm still standing behind my essential point that we need to focus on the subtle events in Sansa's story, but to speak to what Le Cygne recently revealed, I definitely want to voice my objection to how Sansa's section is written in the app. She's already accused of being passive and weak by so many readers, and to relate the events in her story in this manner may only serve to foreground such opinions. The thing is is that Sansa is predominantly active in her thoughts and in other "quiet" moments, so if Martin is deliberately trying to avoid speculation on these important scenes, the writers may have veered too much towards relating her story through the actions of others. Perhaps bumps! or someone else who has the app can weigh in, but based on Le Cygne's report, I do think it warrants a little bit of side-eye :)

Your objection is noted, but having thoughts doesn't equate to being an active character. The App is more of a facts, as we know them, generator. There is potential for her to become an active player but it's almost as likely she remains in the Vale, and stays Alayne.

[brashcandy]

Your objection is noted, but having thoughts doesn't equate to being an active character. The App is more of a facts, as we know them, generator. There is potential for her to become an active player but it's almost as likely she remains in the Vale, and stays Alayne.

These thoughts actually propel her to do things, Gannicus. My point was that a lot of times Sansa's observations are overlooked, but they are important motivators to what she says and does.

[Lykos]

Pod The Impaler, I think the App is just a blown up Appendix (and Le Cygne, don´t you know that girls don´t check facts, they just read the books for the romantic feeling and never analyse anything and no boy will ever be interested in Sansa. :bang: )

Pod, I think at least most of the Blackfyre supporters share the view of Randyll Tarly, since they supported a contender for having received a sword from daddy. And though I agree that Sandor is not unintelligent, he has a very simple way of looking at things sometimes. "I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." Sandor to Sansa in Clash.

Btw. does anyone have the feeling that Sandor´s father might have used the same Warlock of Qarth - treatment on Gregor, that Randyll tried on Sam, only that time it had "worked"?

[Gannicus]

Tyrion's section, about the marriage:

"Tyrion proves solicitous of his new bride though she refuses to consumate the marriage."

This is his section, and we hear nothing about her other than she refused him (unlike her section where we heard about how he seems, his duties, etc.)

Sheesh picky picky. I understand what your saying but in this example those are just the facts. Tyrion was OK with it, Sansa was not. Maybe part of the reason is the chapter was his POV. His thoughts and feeling are not speculation. :dunno: I understand Sansa feelings are obvious in this regard but we don't see this scene from her POV.

And see how a word or two added to his sentence might change that around a bit:

"Tyrion proves solicitous of his new bride and attempts to bed her, but she refuses to consumate the forced marriage."

That's not in the app because that's walking the line of being factually inaccurate.

[brashcandy]

Sheesh picky picky. I understand what your saying but in this example those are just the facts. Tyrion was OK with it, Sansa was not. Maybe part of the reason is the chapter was his POV. His thoughts and feeling are not speculation. :dunno: I understand Sansa feelings are obvious in this regard but we don't see this scene from her POV.

The wedding chapter is Sansa's POV.

[Gannicus]

These thoughts actually propel her to do things, Gannicus. My point was that a lot of times Sansa's observations are overlooked, but they are important motivators to what she says and does.

Of course, just like the rest of the characters have their motivations. I get what you want and what you're saying, but I don't think the purpose of the App goes beyond a factual database even if some characters have their thoughts mentioned on occasion.

[Gannicus]

The wedding chapter is Sansa's POV.

Oh really? My mistake, I could have sworn the bedding scene was from Tyrion's POV. I was just trying to propose a possible reason for the wording.

[Le Cygne]

That's not in the app because that's walking the line of being factually inaccurate.

What's inaccurate?

Remember all this?

He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. “Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”

Red-faced, Sansa went with him from the Small Hall. What choice do I have? ...

“I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.”

“And my clothing?”

“That too.”...

“Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty.”...

When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next...

She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?

[Gannicus]

Note how I said walks the line of being inaccurate. I don't deny that he initially makes a move to bed her and the marriage is forced. But Tyrion agrees to not bed(rape) her, which is an important moment in that chapter. So wording that makes it sound like Sansa fought off his advances doesn't seem accurate.

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You just totally changed your post?

I remember that, and I remember what comes after that.