From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

[Daphne23]

I've also been a long-time lurker on this thread... Pod, I loved your analysis of the five possible ways Sansa's story could go, even if some of them made me worry! I think they are all plausible and expertly explored, and, from the evidence we have so far, III, IV or V seem most likely. I'm still holding out hope that V comes to pass, but we definitely can't discount some of the darker options for Sansa's arc.

[butterbumps!]

I think you make a good point bumps. I know Pod has characterised "Petyr" as the young innocent boy, laying it all on the line for love, but I'm inclined to think Petyr wasn't all that different from his other incarnations as Littlefinger and Lord Baelish. Recall when he takes Sansa on the tour of his holdings on the Fingers, and he tells the story of how his father took him to see the hermit in the cave who read his fortune:

Young Petyr always had an inflated ego and ambitions towards greatness. I don't know if he was thinking that far ahead about the possibilities of having Cat in his corner, but it's not out the realm of possibility. Just as everyone else knows it's madness that he wants to duel Brandon, surely someone as smart as Petyr knows it too, especially after Cat explicitly refuses to give him her favor? We also know that he sent Cat a letter while he was convalescing, but she burnt it unread. I'd love to know what it contained.

Indeed, not knowing the contents of that letter is quite a crime (just as the fact that we're not privy to Cotter Pyke's undoubtedly hilarious letters to Jon about Selyse is a crime; as an indulgent aside, every time I think of those letters-- especially the "angry mark" signature-- I'm overcome with laughter).

More seriously though, the reasons you bring up are exactly why I think we might want to question "Petyr" as truth, and perhaps understand this as another of his "masks." LF was 15 at the time of this duel, and only 4 years later he's in charge of customs in the Vale. Comparatively, by 13 Dany was a khaleesi, at 14 Robb was "elected" King in the North, and at 15 Jon's out on that intense ranging. I'm not so sure that being 15 is enough to explain LF as a love-struck child and completely blind to the world. I'm not even sure that being 15 could explain the breath-taking stupidity of this challenge for the sake of "owning" Cat.

I think that there is a "Petyr," but I don't believe that this duel was the turning point for him; I suspect something happened that turned him into LF much earlier, prior to his Riverrun years, perhaps. Perhaps there is something else behind his father's sending him there to ward in the first place, and perhaps he needed a reason to go back home. At any rate, I am really starting to question how seminal this duel was in terms of making LF who he has become.

Interesting idea, but I find it really unlikely. LF was already a close friend of Catelyn before the duel. And angering both Hoster Tully and the Stark heir, both of which had a lot more power and influence than Catleyn, was quite counter-productive for his plans to get ahead in life.

I would doubt it. If he was that clever, I think he'd think it too risky to get into a sword fight. Sword fights are too dangerous, and to know if Brandon would not kill him, he'd have to be dead certain that Brandon would keep his word and be so good with a sword he could wound someone at some set level he can control perfectly. Plus, let's not forget, even a small cut can infect and kill someone. It is known. If all he wanted was to be wounded to gain sympathy, why not a fistfight instead ? Littlefinger is a master schemer, but I think for young Petyr, this would be too much to ask for.

As much as I don't believe LF is a genius-mastermind, I do think there might be some truth to this having been purposeful. The duel was an unreasonably stupid thing to do.

In looking at the consequences of his relationships with people at Riverrun, it almost played out too perfectly to be an accident. While I do think he's an opportunist and had no long-term concrete goal in mind, I think it stands to reason that he ensured he would have both Tully women in his trust as something he purposely worked toward-- an investment he knew he could save and use later, though he wouldn't know the precise use of it at the time. This is exactly how he operates. And the duel smacks of the same ploy he put Lyn Corbray up to during the Lords Declarent meeting.

And why would he want to secure the women, even at the expense of upsetting major lords? Well, look at his spy network: brothels. He operates on the premise that men categorically reveal more of their secrets to women, and vice versa: that woman have a subtle but strong influence over men (Tywin-Joanna, for example, and of course Lysa-Jon, especially as it pertains to how LF rose). LF could never hope to be a confidante of a major lord, but here was the opportunity to influence the men by securing their women. This is a really significant part of his later operations that are visible to us.

LF constantly jabs Ned about his "Stark honor." I think LF calculated this correctly-- even Brandon was loathe to harm him, but in order for this to "work," it had to appear that LF was truly deluded enough to be serious about the challenge, and to suffer seemingly for the sake of Cat. We know that in truth, Cat's guilt over this still persists from her thoughts while at the Eyrie.

Why this duel? Why not just bank on Cat's brotherly love? LF "knows Cat too well" according to Cat's own inner dialogue. LF knew Cat was not in love with him the way Lysa has always been. Though Cat was fond of him, this wouldn't be enough to cement her to his will, overriding her duty to the Stark she would be marrying. LF rightly could have calculated that Cat's sense of duty and family was so much that he needed this extra factor, that essentially did have the effect of making her feel that she owed him something for his devotion. And importantly, the idea that he loved her so much that he'd never lie to her.

Another interesting LF intrigue: all the Tully children and LF used to go to the Blackfish with their secrets. The Blackfish was their confidante. I wonder how much LF gleaned about the Blackfish during this time, and how he might use this info for his future endeavors.

One last point. I can't help but notice how right Varys is about children's being overlooked and underestimated. Varys has been making his living on the fact that no one suspects a sweet, innocent child, yet we know precisely how sweet and innocent his "birds are," and we're in the heads of a number of children's POVs who absolutely do know what's going on around them. I think that LF benefits from the very assumptions that Varys and the Stark kids have shattered. I think we might be looking too charitably on LF's childhood at Riverrun as being the "truth" of who he is.

[Lummel]

...In looking at the consequences of his relationships with people at Riverrun, it almost played out too perfectly to be an accident. While I do think he's an opportunist and had no long-term concrete goal in mind, I think it stands to reason that he ensured he would have both Tully women in his trust as something he purposely worked toward-- an investment he knew he could save and use later, though he wouldn't know the precise use of it at the time. This is exactly how he operates. And the duel smacks of the same ploy he put Lyn Corbray up to during the Lords Declarent meeting...

Something that strikes me about duelling is that it is not a wild, spur of the moment, emotion driven thing. It is a precisely calibrated act that is socially required. A man must resort to weapons and duel to defend his honour. If he has no honour he can't function in society.

Petyr duelling is the equivalent of Tywin going to war over Tyrion's arrest. It is a precise political statement. Certainly it sends the message that he is the social equal of Brandon Stark - which is quite a statement. Secondly it states the message that he has staked a prior claim on Catelyn and that giving way and allowing a marriage without protest would be injurious to his honour.

He has actually won a victory simply because Brandon does fight him as opposed to having a couple of servants grab him and horsewhip him. Brandon implicitly is acknowledging him as a social equal and that admitting that there is merit in his claim to prior stake in Catelyn even though Brandon's victory finds that claim worthless.

[Queen of Winter]

That was a really intense project you worked on Pod! (I think I need to reread it again before commenting :D ) Well done! :thumbsup:

Also, after being sidetracked by real life, I hope to finish off the final part of the project that Brash asked me to work on and will post it when it's complete. Just wanted you all to know I've not forgotten it. :)

[Elba the Intoner]

Great points Butterbumps and Lummel. It really does make you wonder. It just seemed so ludicrous to pursue a duel that he knew he could not win, and the way he refused to yield gives the impression that he's basically delusional and obsessed. But, you make some plausible arguments that there might be more to it than at first glance. I have had a similar thought with that kiss he plants on Sansa during the snow Winterfell scene. At first I thought it was just a huge mistake, and really the first one we've seen him make, because if anyone saw him do that, that would blow Sansa's cover and his as well. But lately I can't help but feel that he did it on purpose to get caught by Lysa, knowing that would make her crazy and somehow give him the excuse to get rid of her, as I believe he did plan on getting rid of her at some point anyway.

I'm also convinced he was behind Jaime's attack on Ned and his men after they leave the brothel. Remember just before that Ned and Robert had gotten into that huge fight over killing Dany, and Ned resigned and was going to leave King's Landing. Well, who should approach Ned as he's planning to leave to have him look into one last clue regarding Jon Arryn's death before he goes? Petyr who so helpfully assists Ned in finding the young whore who bore Robert's newest child Barra. He knew Ned could not resist checking into that. Also, it's common knowledge that Jaime had a tendency to act rashly without thinking when riled up and word had just arrived in King's Landing that Cat had kidnapped Tyrion, Jaime's beloved little brother. All LF had to do was let it slip that Ned and some of his men were going to a brothel and word could have easily reached Jaime about that in time for him to confront Ned. Remember how fast LF flies off when Jaime shows up?

[David Selig]

In looking at the consequences of his relationships with people at Riverrun, it almost played out too perfectly to be an accident. While I do think he's an opportunist and had no long-term concrete goal in mind, I think it stands to reason that he ensured he would have both Tully women in his trust as something he purposely worked toward-- an investment he knew he could save and use later, though he wouldn't know the precise use of it at the time. This is exactly how he operates. And the duel smacks of the same ploy he put Lyn Corbray up to during the Lords Declarent meeting.

I don't think it played out perfectly in regards to making Catelyn trusts him. When she comes to KL, she didn't intent to go to him for help and her PoV stated "She trusted Littlefinger only a little". They've had no contact for 15 years. I fail to see why would LF think the duel would've made Catelyn trust him more.

Besides, Stark honor or not, LF could've easily died in the duel even if Brandon was trying to be merciful. LF ended up very seriously injured and refused multiple opportunities to yield even after he already got several wounds. If it was a calculated act to gain Cat's trust, there was no reason to be so stubborn. One or two wounds would've sufficed.

I also don't see why LF couldn't hope to become a confidante of a major lord - he was in the perfect position to develop friendship and trust with the young Edmure Tully, for example.

More seriously though, the reasons you bring up are exactly why I think we might want to question "Petyr" as truth, and perhaps understand this as another of his "masks." LF was 15 at the time of this duel, and only 4 years later he's in charge of customs in the Vale. Comparatively, by 13 Dany was a khaleesi, at 14 Robb was "elected" King in the North, and at 15 Jon's out on that intense ranging. I'm not so sure that being 15 is enough to explain LF as a love-struck child and completely blind to the world. I'm not even sure that being 15 could explain the breath-taking stupidity of this challenge for the sake of "owning" Cat.

Tyrion was 13 when he did something equally idiotic because of love. Robb was 16. Lyanna was 15. Jaime was 15. The list go and on. It's not like there aren't plenty of examples in the books of this.

[butterbumps!]

Great points Butterbumps and Lummel. It really does make you wonder. It just seemed so ludicrous to pursue a duel that he knew he could not win, and the way he refused to yield gives the impression that he's basically delusional and obsessed. But, you make some plausible arguments that there might be more to it than at first glance. I have had a similar thought with that kiss he plants on Sansa during the snow Winterfell scene. At first I thought it was just a huge mistake, and really the first one we've seen him make, because if anyone saw him do that, that would blow Sansa's cover and his as well. But lately I can't help but feel that he did it on purpose to get caught by Lysa, knowing that would make her crazy and somehow give him the excuse to get rid of her, as I believe he did plan on getting rid of her at some point anyway.

Yes, this was my understanding of the kiss as well. LF knows Lysa is unstable and would become enraged at this. LF could easily turn Lysa into the "monster," which gives LF the opportunity to become "monster-slayer," as well as remove the hindrance of Lysa from the picture. It was kind of deftly done, I have to admit. So knowing plum well that Lysa could see, he plants the kiss, leaves Lysa to become mad with jealousy, swoops in at an appropriate time to become Sansa's "hero," and rid himself of Lysa in a way that seemed perfectly justified. And gives another opportunity to let Sansa know just "how much he truly loved her mother."

I don't think it played out perfectly in regards to making Catelyn trusts him. When she comes to KL, she didn't intent to go to him for help and her PoV stated "She trusted Littlefinger only a little". They've had no contact for 15 years. I fail to see why would LF think the duel would've made Catelyn trust him more.

And without this possible mummer's farce, perhaps that would read, "She trusted LF not at all." I suppose we'll never know, but it did, actually play out to his advantage.

Besides, Stark honor or not, LF could've easily died in the duel even if Brandon was trying to be merciful. LF ended up very seriously injured and refused multiple opportunities to yield even after he already got several wounds. If it was a calculated act to gain Cat's trust, there was no reason to be so stubborn. One or two wounds would've sufficed.

It had to look desperate to be convincing I think; the more egregious, the most guilt Cat would feel.

I also don't see why LF couldn't hope to become a confidante of a major lord - he was in the perfect position to develop friendship and trust with the young Edmure Tully, for example.

Edmure is a really nice guy, but it would seem that he didn't have the makings of a "great lord" even as a child. He may not have been worth LF's time.

Tyrion was 13 when he did something equally idiotic because of love. Robb was 16. Lyanna was 15. Jaime was 15. The list go and on. It's not like there aren't plenty of examples in the books of this.

No matter how many times you point out Robb's "idiocy" wrt marrying Jeyne, it doesn't make this a case of idiocy. He felt compelled to marry her for reasons of honor (sleeping with her wasn't the problem; marrying her out of honor was). It was a wrong but rational decision, not one of passion, which is what LF's folly is supposed to appear as. I would hardly call what Tyrion did of the same caliber of idiocy that we're talking about here; same with Jaime's decision to join the KG. I don't quite understand how you're equating these things with the specifics of LF's duel.

[Devaki Khanna]

The brutal irony here is that Sansa might have fallen for young Petyr, a sincere but naive boy whom Lord Baelish can never be again. By becoming Littlefinger, he may have doomed Petyr's chances with someone like Sansa. (If that makes sense ?)

Also, the cold/warm symbolism there is about what sort of life he thought (or feared) Catelyn was living out. It was a sort of fiction Petyr made up in his head - in his mind, the woman he loved was (in the name of family, duty and honour) carried off to some frozen northern hell - "cold". For Sansa though, it is "warm" - a home, a caring family, parents who loved each other and made a good life together.

Too true--she may have fallen for someone like Petyr, but she would not now choose someone like Littlefinger.

And yes, he hasn't a clue what Catelyn's marriage was really like--she and Ned lived far away from the court and all court gossip.

[plurabel]

just wanted to say that I read the X PtP thread and it is so brilliant yet so crazy at the same time. you people never cease to amaze me with your intelligence and fearlessness. just wanted to say kudos to tze, ladylea, queen of winter, brashcandy and all the others who post those lengthy smart analyses. such flavoursome threads! they're well appreciated.

I wonder what grrm would think if he read something like that about the pomegranate symbolism etc... I just really doubt he went into that level of detail when writing. you guys just made him even smarter, if anything. :)

[brashcandy]

Yes, this was my understanding of the kiss as well. LF knows Lysa is unstable and would become enraged at this. LF could easily turn Lysa into the "monster," which gives LF the opportunity to become "monster-slayer," as well as remove the hindrance of Lysa from the picture. It was kind of deftly done, I have to admit. So knowing plum well that Lysa could see, he plants the kiss, leaves Lysa to become mad with jealousy, swoops in at an appropriate time to become Sansa's "hero," and rid himself of Lysa in a way that seemed perfectly justified. And gives another opportunity to let Sansa know just "how much he truly loved her mother."

And LF as monster-slayer is precisely the kind of image he needed to present to Sansa at that time, given that she had been on the verge of asking Lysa to send her away from the Eyrie and he could detect her clear frustration and longing for home when she built the snow castle. By getting rid of Lysa, he knows he truly has Sansa trapped, as he can not only guarantee her silence for fear of being returned to KL, but can make her feel guilty about not appreciating his sacrifice.

I think your points about rethinking the young Petyr are spot on bumps, not to mention that if we regard LF as having certain sociopathic tendencies, it makes sense that these didn't simply arise out of his disappointment over Cat. He's not (only) a man trying to thumb his nose at nobles by showing he too can rise in the world; he's an agent of chaos and destruction, who's displayed a frightening lack of empathy and an obsessive attraction to a young girl whom he knows does not want him. If we accept that this is the man LF is, then it means we have to look further back into his history and pick up the threads of the narrative way before he came to Riverrun.

[brashcandy]

And welcome to Plurabel and Dapne23 :) Glad you guys are enjoying the thread!

[plurabel]

thanks! yes, I have been reading the ptp on and off for a while. I love the beauty and the beast analyses. I'd be more of a frequent reader if work permitted but I enjoy the threads even if I read them in a bit of a scrambled order. just a side comment, a bit of sister-pride type of thing: it makes me giddy that my favourite commenters, really some of the smartest incorporeal people I've come across (in an asoiaf board of all internet places) are women.

[AureliaC]

I feel like a child sitting at the adult's table writing in this post ;) . Your knowledge and your analysis is impressive and I wouldn't know how to contribute in the discussion in that way. But, since I have read quite a bit of your project relating to Sansa's relationships with both male and female characters and those topics are locked I am daring to add my voice here.

I'll start with one thought on Pod The Impaler's excellent post on LF.

VI - Sansa The Redeemer: I save my most crackpot possibility for last. Sansa redeems Littlefinger. Maybe after the schemes play out, Lord Baelish realizes that though he wants Sansa, or maybe even loves her, he cannot have her. Her feelings are simply not there for him, and he has to pull back before he does something even he would consider monstrous. Maybe Baelish decides to be truly gallant and remorseful, to save Catelyn's daughter for real and try to make up for what he has done.

Sound out of character ? Nope, not since we know the kind of person young Petyr once was trying to be: heroic and idealistic. Death did not frighten Petyr, only the idea of giving in. He too once believed in songs and stories, in the idea of having something better than the emotional morass he has dwelled in since his rejection by Catelyn and duel with Brandon Stark. Somewhere in him, young Petyr maybe be fighting to get out, and wants to save Sansa (from himself).

There is perhaps something I call “The Sansa Effect”. Sansa is maybe more than charming, courteous, and beautiful. Maybe she is blessed - blessed with an ability to influence the emotional path of others, to break through their armour, all their rage and spite and coldness. She is a catalyst that transforms the tormented and fallen into better versions of themselves. The Hound was a man driven by deep-seated hatred, and bitterly served evil masters while being numb to his own conscience. After interaction with Sansa, he finally confronted his own terrible acts and dark desires, and it broke his loyalty to the masters he served. Tyrion was a man who subsumed his own sense of justice, honour, and love for the sake of living up to the monstrous family he belonged to. His interactions with Sansa made him try to act like a the more noble man he had the potential to be, and brought the conflict between him and the rest of his family to a head. A monster he might be, but he would not let them harm Sansa as they (and he) harmed Tysha. Lancel Lannister received kindness from Sansa, despite having treated her poorly himself. Her compassion towards him may have helped him go from arrogance to shame to piety. Dontos Hollard was a ruin of a man, a drunkard without a hope of doing anything but embarrassing himself, but Sansa saved his life and in a way enabled him to be a knight again. Even remotely, Sansa is central to Brienne becoming a quest knight and Jaime grudgingly trying to salvage his lost honour.

Perhaps not everyone is redeemable, and for some, her gentle nature brings out the worst in them (Joffrey, Cersei). Yet we do not know what run's through Littlefinger's mind any more than we know the Hound's. Perhaps he gets a redemption arc too. Maybe not that much, but perhaps through Sansa we'll see more of Petyr emerge, from behind the masks of Littlefinger and Lord Baelish.

In reading about Sansa especially in the second and third books I was reminded of the main female character of an Italian novel called "The Betrothed". In it Lucia, just like Sansa, has some kind of redemptive power. While having been kidnapped by one of the greatest criminal of that time (the novel is set in the 17th century) she brings him to wanting to reembrace his Catholic faith and wanting to confess his sins and repent for them. I mention this because in that novel the world is much more Manichean and it's much easier to discern some dynamics. Lucia has a redemptive power that works to a character that is somehow "predisposed" to being redempted (this criminal has been tormented for a while when she meets Lucia) while it doesn't work on other characters that are proud of their ways. She acts like some kind of last push needed. I think Sansa is the same in this sense. She interacts with them at points in their lives when they are in some way flirting with a change in their life, however minimal, and Sansa fans the flame. With LF it would be much different because although he is different around Sansa and she might be her kryptonite as some of you have suggested, he doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with his role as a puppeteer.

Moreover, I believe that Sansa's redeemer properties act unwittingly. She doesn't actively try to change people, she inspires them to change, which is probably why she is mostly successful in this sense (people don't react well to being asked to change). But it seems to me that she might not want LF to become Petyr. The honorable men in her life have failed her. Since I agree that under LF's tutelage she is learning at least the rules of the game of thrones she must realize that a person like LF, while dangerous, is also the horse to be betting on in that particular game.

I am not saying that she feels safe with him but this is a foe that she's beginning to know and thay maybe is willing to let her in on his game. So maybe, or at least that's how I partly see it, she could want LF to be LF as long as it takes for her to be able to fend for herself without his schemes "facilitating" her life.

Congrats again on this huge rereading of Sansa! It's so smart and thought-provoking.

[brashcandy]

Welcome AureliaC! I think you articulated your points about Sansa very well so you should have no fear of contributing regularly on the thread :) I agree particularly with your thoughts on how Sansa inspires others, and the fact that it's not something she deliberately sets out to do, which increases the chances of the change actually taking place. As for Petyr, I also agree that he's much too comfortable in his role as puppet master to be open to any redemption.

[Éadaoin]

Just some thoughts on LF...

I just read that the following are some marked traits of a sociopath:

* Egocentricity

* Callousness

* Impulsivity

* Conscience defect

* Exaggerated sexuality

* Excessive boasting

* Risk taking

* Inability to resist temptation

* Antagonistic

* Deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex

* Lack of interest in bonding with a mate.

LF definitely fits several of these. I also read something else that is interesting: "A sociopath prefers to play games and prove his cunning over society." This sentence could have been written about LF! From what I've read, he fits the definition of sociopath to a T - the charm, the risk taking, the egocentricity, the lack of empathy.

Now, one could go further and discuss whether LF is a sociopath or a psychopath. This gets tricky, because even specialists disagree on the precise definitions of each. However, I've just read something online that stuck out: "The last main difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is in the presentation. The psychopath is callous, yet charming. He or she will con and manipulate others with charisma and intimidation and can effectively mimic feelings to present as “normal” to society. The psychopath is organized in their criminal thinking and behavior, and can maintain good emotional and physical control, displaying little to no emotional or autonomic arousal, even under situations that most would find threatening or horrifying. The psychopath is keenly aware that what he or she is doing is wrong, but does not care." If we were going with this definition, I would say LF is a psychopath. Again, it could have been practically written about him.

Next comes the question of whether LF was born or made. I honestly think that it is a combination of both. There had to be some underlying defect in him; life does not turn everyone into monsters. I think that it was likely a mix of nurture and nature. It is clear to me that something was always deeply wrong with LF - one does not simply "turn into" a person who pushes a woman out of the Moon Door, sells a little girl into prostitution, etc. Other characters in the series have gone through far worse than LF and retained their decency. At the same time, there were probably instances in his life that fanned the flames. A better person would have been able to recover from these instances, whatever they were - LF couldn't, because intrinsically, there is something wrong with him.

As to whether or not the duel was purposeful... Both psychopaths and sociopaths are known to be impulsive. It is one of their defining traits. Due to this, I could see the duel being a mistake made by young LF, one that he tried to learn from. Yet at the same time, I could also see it as a ploy. LF has a sharp, low cunning. What is interesting here, to me, are his feelings for Catelyn. I don't think he ever loved Cat in a way that a normal person loves. I think that by this time he was already well-set towards his sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies. I think that he wanted to possess her - he may have wanted her love, yes, but that love was an object to him, not something to reciprocate but something to own. A powerful feeling - enough to drive him to do something stupid, possibly - but not love. This is why I cringe when people paint LF as a heartbroken innocent, rejected by the Bad Evil Catelyn. I just don't see it. The sociopathic tendencies are all there. I would say that LF is incapable of love.

To wrap this up: I cannot imagine LF and Sansa being together for countless reasons, and one of them is that LF is incapable of love. He may not always have been like this, but I would argue that he certainly is now. It is common in Westeros to be married to someone who does not love you. But to be married to someone who is actually incapable of the emotion? Sansa is a perceptive person, and she knows that something is clearly "off" about him. They are deeply incompatible due to his very nature. I would say that LF is clearly a sociopath or a psychopath, and that because of this there is no way to redeem him.

Sorry for the disorganized post. :blushing: And I apologize for it being more about LF than Sansa!

I agree particularly with your thoughts on how Sansa inspires others, and the fact that it's not something she deliberately sets out to do, which increases the chances of the change actually taking place. As for Petyr, I also agree that he's much too comfortable in his role as puppet master to be open to any redemption.

I agree with both of you that Sansa has certain inspirational qualities. Also, I think it is ironic that LF is so determined to claim Sansa when he's actually blind to who she is and what she wants and needs. Just further proof that (to him) she is something to possess, not someone to truly love.

[Pod The Impaler]

Yes--she has a transformative effect on her captors, which makes me wonder if her method of ressistance--words and wits, passive ressistance--is not closer to what Mahatma Gandhi or Nelson Mandela wanted to achieve--to transform the oppressors, until they realise that they are doing evil and divorce themselves from the agency that makes them do evil. Sansa is a very devout girl--notice her going to the sept and the godswood regularly. It might be that she did this to earn brownie points socially during her captivity--but she does this as a matter of course--she prays and cares for her father when he is attacked by the Lannisters in AGoT. Yes, she needs to wisen up to look out for herself and those close to her. And if she is wise, she will learn what she must from Littlefinger, to survive in a very dangerous world. After all, the Hound advised her to tell Joffrey what he wanted to hear--she used that maxim to survive King's Landing. She could afford to show Tyrion her displeasure with their marriage, because she knew he was a kind man who would not hurt her and would listen to her. Again, Dontos told her that the Tyrells and the Lannisters both wanted her claim to the north, not her.

Well, yes, those two people are examples of passive resistance. I was thinking also in terms of actual sainthood, since this is a fantasy story in a basically medieval setting after all, a bit of the supernatural element is not out of place.

I'd like to make some comments on the questions about Why not just rape Sansa? Why would a seemingly sociopathic man not simply take by force what he so obviously wants? What stops him?

The question is already partially answered: he has a sociopathic personality. I can tell he’s not the type of aggressive (violent) sociopath but a passive one. By definition, a sociopath has a weak and unelaborated conscience and an undeveloped sense of empathy, which precludes him from feeling love or caring if his is a requited one. And, of all the men that have been around Sansa, he’s the one whose behaviour most frighteningly fits in the psychological profile for a sexual abuser, specifically of the type psychologists call groomers. A groomer prefers to seduce his victim, not force her. It’s a sort of game for them, a perverse game to satisfy their own desires and fantasies regardless of what the female wants or feels. Their aim is never to be wanted or loved back but to achieve the goal of satisfying these desires and fantasies.

Littlefinger’s modus operandi shows all the alarm signs a clinician is trained to detect. A summary of the grooming stages would look like this:

Spots the girl he desires––Befriends her––Makes himself very necessary to her or the family/friend closest to her––Begins the first sexual advances, usually seemingly affectionate touching–– isolates little by little, to the point where he can be alone with her in private––Advances to more bold sexual moves, like kissing, and then caressing her privates. Whatever he does, these moves are predominantly nonviolent and preferably in private settings, in an effort to avoid detection––Condition the girl through rewards, overt or veiled threats, or misrepresenting the moral validity of what he does to her––This pay/punish/demand for the sexual satisfaction becomes a routine––…until the abuser decides he wants more, that is: sexual intercourse. Normally, it’s not done violently, because by then the girl is too caught up in his web of fear, guilt, shame, low self-esteem and terror of punishments to resist actively, yet it can happen that she does resist.

The Mockingbird has gone through all these stages since he first met Sansa when she was eleven, and the manner he approached her and his gestures made her uncomfortable.

Examining the way he is acting at the Vale, getting bolder and using coercion to erase any resistance or lack of cooperation, I'd say there's a high chance of a rape attempt, especially if or when he learns about what Sansa feels for another.

Regarding Sansa falling in love with Littlefinger... The girl falling for a groomer would be a grave case of Stockholm syndrome. But there's little chance of that happening with this Sansa, and time isn’t exactly on his side, the possibility of her being discovered increases as weeks go by, and above all because of the “hidden dagger” that goes by the name of Sandor Clegane. Littlefinger came too late to the party and missed the formation of this bond, as he’s missing the ones she’s forming under his very own nose with new people she’s met; her memories of her direwolf replacement aren't only her last ties to her former identity as a Stark but also a mental protection against the possibility of ever loving Littlefinger, strong because he doesn’t even suspect what she feels and dreams and thinks about; thus he’s unable to move a finger against something he ignores.

Well, this is all true, which is why I brought it up. We do not know if Littlefinger has a moral red-line, but I suspect before long, we'll find out. Sansa "falling" for him after sustained brainwashing may be the same a girl who gets inducted into a life of prostitution, by a "groomer" type. (And it is teling that LF is a pimp, and knows how to do these things). They often think of their pimps as surrogate daddies or as boyfriends / husbands. (I mean, where does the term "sugar daddy" come from ? It's creepy to think of, just like it would be creepy to think of LF telling Alayne "come sit on daddy's lap", etc.)

As I said before, we do not know if LF has some conscience buried deep down that might make his feelings for her an exception to his otherwise callous outlook, that might indicate he can stop himself. If it exists at all, I suspect that the source of it would be Petyr's own grudge against society for treating him that way - a Littlefinger who wants to burn Westerosi society down, using its own methods, would ironically have more conscience than one who is content with playing the game simply to gratify his own base desires.

I must say, given only the outward indications, the prognosis for Littlefinger actually having a shred of conscience is not good. He may be one of those few complete monsters in ASOIAF who will only stop when someone stops them.

[Groat]

All true, but isn't LF banking on Sansa ultimately not wanting Harry? As you've noted in the past, he ostensibly sells her on the marriage whilst snidely undermining Harry at the same time. So even though he may figure that Sansa might be temporarily enthralled, he too wants her to reject HtH eventually. So, what hand can Sansa play here? She has her own personal reasons for not wanting to be married again, and if she's picking up LF's subtext, has additional reasons to be wary of this type. What move does she make if HtH does become a reality?

I think LF's play with Harry is actually rather brilliant. She can either accept the marriage, which would make her complicit in her own cousin's murder for the sake of political gain. This would make Sansa a serious player, as now she has a claim to WF with the power of the Vale behind her, while also completely shedding her moral and compassionate attitude for a much cold, and self-gaining one. In such a case LF would be able to blackmail her, but more than likely would continue to advise her, corrupt her, and grow ever closer to her, until he would be her husband in all but name.

Her other option, which is what I think LF is actually banking on, his her refusing to marry Harry. I'm not sure how this would play out, espically concerning Robert, but would more than likely involve Sansa having to continue to hide and be even more dependent on LF. She may even give up altogether with notions on going home to Winterfell, which is exactly what he wants.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I feel like a child sitting at the adult's table writing in this post ;) . Your knowledge and your analysis is impressive and I wouldn't know how to contribute in the discussion in that way. But, since I have read quite a bit of your project relating to Sansa's relationships with both male and female characters and those topics are locked I am daring to add my voice here.

I'll start with one thought on Pod The Impaler's excellent post on LF.

In reading about Sansa especially in the second and third books I was reminded of the main female character of an Italian novel called "The Betrothed". In it Lucia, just like Sansa, has some kind of redemptive power. While having been kidnapped by one of the greatest criminal of that time (the novel is set in the 17th century) she brings him to wanting to reembrace his Catholic faith and wanting to confess his sins and repent for them. I mention this because in that novel the world is much more Manichean and it's much easier to discern some dynamics. Lucia has a redemptive power that works to a character that is somehow "predisposed" to being redempted (this criminal has been tormented for a while when she meets Lucia) while it doesn't work on other characters that are proud of their ways. She acts like some kind of last push needed. I think Sansa is the same in this sense. She interacts with them at points in their lives when they are in some way flirting with a change in their life, however minimal, and Sansa fans the flame. With LF it would be much different because although he is different around Sansa and she might be her kryptonite as some of you have suggested, he doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with his role as a puppeteer.

Moreover, I believe that Sansa's redeemer properties act unwittingly. She doesn't actively try to change people, she inspires them to change, which is probably why she is mostly successful in this sense (people don't react well to being asked to change). But it seems to me that she might not want LF to become Petyr. The honorable men in her life have failed her. Since I agree that under LF's tutelage she is learning at least the rules of the game of thrones she must realize that a person like LF, while dangerous, is also the horse to be betting on in that particular game.

I am not saying that she feels safe with him but this is a foe that she's beginning to know and thay maybe is willing to let her in on his game. So maybe, or at least that's how I partly see it, she could want LF to be LF as long as it takes for her to be able to fend for herself without his schemes "facilitating" her life.

Congrats again on this huge rereading of Sansa! It's so smart and thought-provoking.

Welcome Aurelia! I'm rather new here as well and always feel intimidated by the brilliant people on these threads so you're not alone :) I completely agree with you about Sansa being a redeemer. I think she makes people change just by being herself- a kind, compassionate person.

Just some thoughts on LF...

I just read that the following are some marked traits of a sociopath:

* Egocentricity

* Callousness

* Impulsivity

* Conscience defect

* Exaggerated sexuality

* Excessive boasting

* Risk taking

* Inability to resist temptation

* Antagonistic

* Deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex

* Lack of interest in bonding with a mate.

LF definitely fits several of these. I also read something else that is interesting: "A sociopath prefers to play games and prove his cunning over society." This sentence could have been written about LF! From what I've read, he fits the definition of sociopath to a T - the charm, the risk taking, the egocentricity, the lack of empathy.

Now, one could go further and discuss whether LF is a sociopath or a psychopath. This gets tricky, because even specialists disagree on the precise definitions of each. However, I've just read something online that stuck out: "The last main difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is in the presentation. The psychopath is callous, yet charming. He or she will con and manipulate others with charisma and intimidation and can effectively mimic feelings to present as “normal” to society. The psychopath is organized in their criminal thinking and behavior, and can maintain good emotional and physical control, displaying little to no emotional or autonomic arousal, even under situations that most would find threatening or horrifying. The psychopath is keenly aware that what he or she is doing is wrong, but does not care." If we were going with this definition, I would say LF is a psychopath. Again, it could have been practically written about him.

Next comes the question of whether LF was born or made. I honestly think that it is a combination of both. There had to be some underlying defect in him; life does not turn everyone into monsters. I think that it was likely a mix of nurture and nature. It is clear to me that something was always deeply wrong with LF - one does not simply "turn into" a person who pushes a woman out of the Moon Door, sells a little girl into prostitution, etc. Other characters in the series have gone through far worse than LF and retained their decency. At the same time, there were probably instances in his life that fanned the flames. A better person would have been able to recover from these instances, whatever they were - LF couldn't, because intrinsically, there is something wrong with him.

As to whether or not the duel was purposeful... Both psychopaths and sociopaths are known to be impulsive. It is one of their defining traits. Due to this, I could see the duel being a mistake made by young LF, one that he tried to learn from. Yet at the same time, I could also see it as a ploy. LF has a sharp, low cunning. What is interesting here, to me, are his feelings for Catelyn. I don't think he ever loved Cat in a way that a normal person loves. I think that by this time he was already well-set towards his sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies. I think that he wanted to possess her - he may have wanted her love, yes, but that love was an object to him, not something to reciprocate but something to own. A powerful feeling - enough to drive him to do something stupid, possibly - but not love. This is why I cringe when people paint LF as a heartbroken innocent, rejected by the Bad Evil Catelyn. I just don't see it. The sociopathic tendencies are all there. I would say that LF is incapable of love.

To wrap this up: I cannot imagine LF and Sansa being together for countless reasons, and one of them is that LF is incapable of love. He may not always have been like this, but I would argue that he certainly is now. It is common in Westeros to be married to someone who does not love you. But to be married to someone who is actually incapable of the emotion? Sansa is a perceptive person, and she knows that something is clearly "off" about him. They are deeply incompatible due to his very nature. I would say that LF is clearly a sociopath or a psychopath, and that because of this there is no way to redeem him.

Sorry for the disorganized post. :blushing: And I apologize for it being more about LF than Sansa!

I agree with both of you that Sansa has certain inspirational qualities. Also, I think it is ironic that LF is so determined to claim Sansa when he's actually blind to who she is and what she wants and needs. Just further proof that (to him) she is something to possess, not someone to truly love.

Those sentences definitely could have been written about Littlefinger. I would totally believe he's a psychopath. About the duel, for some reason I see it as more of an impulsive thing. Of course, he could have had a plan but somehow I don't think so. I see it as more him thinking: I want Catelyn therefore I can't let her marry Brandon Stark so I will challenge him to a duel. Of course I could be wrong. :)

I definitely agree that LF isn't capable of loving anyone- except possibly himself. Sansa would definitely never fall in love with him. She can tell something's not right with him and she's a hopeless romantic. She's going to want someone who will love her back. And I'm sure she'll figure out that LF is not that person.

[Éadaoin]

I must say, given only the outward indications, the prognosis for Littlefinger actually having a shred of conscience is not good. He may be one of those few complete monsters in ASOIAF who will only stop when someone stops them.

I agree that the likelihood of redemption for LF seems unlikely, which is a source of irony for me as Sansa seems innately skilled at helping redeem people. Yet LF seems to be the one who she cannot help! One, like you said, there has not been any indication that LF is on his way towards redemption, or even that he is capable of such a thing. It is true that he does not have a POV and therefore we cannot see inside his mind (which was a stroke of brilliance on GRRM's part), but as far as I know there has not been any textual evidence pointing towards any kind of possible salvation. I feel that GRRM would have least dropped subtle hints if LF was going to have a redemption arc.

Of course, GRRM could be reading this and laughing right now.

[Pod The Impaler]

Another interesting LF intrigue: all the Tully children and LF used to go to the Blackfish with their secrets. The Blackfish was their confidante. I wonder how much LF gleaned about the Blackfish during this time, and how he might use this info for his future endeavors.

One last point. I can't help but notice how right Varys is about children's being overlooked and underestimated. Varys has been making his living on the fact that no one suspects a sweet, innocent child, yet we know precisely how sweet and innocent his "birds are," and we're in the heads of a number of children's POVs who absolutely do know what's going on around them. I think that LF benefits from the very assumptions that Varys and the Stark kids have shattered. I think we might be looking too charitably on LF's childhood at Riverrun as being the "truth" of who he is.

Indeed, the Blackfish is still at large, and knows the Vale about as well as one can expect of any Riverlander. He may be headed Sansa's way as we speak.

Another possibility is Varys - Varys did not appear to be at the Purple Wedding either. While I can believe LF pulled that off without Varys' knowledge or help, I do not think Varys would be entirely uninterested in Sansa's fate. We get few Sansa-Varys interactions in the story, but there is already one Varys-related development regarding Sansa Stark: Ser Shadrich (the Mad Mouse) is after her.

Ser Shadrich said Varys was offering a rich bag of gold for her capture - but given what we know of Varys now, who says Varys would simply dump her in Cersei's lap ? Maybe Varys has designs on saving her as well ? It is hard to tell when Varys is being sincere, but if perhaps Sansa was one of those innocent young ones he would not want to see harmed.

The symbolism is there too: After all, he has his "little birds", she is a little bird". He used to have "little mice", and who goes hunting for her but a (somewhat little) "Mad Mouse" ? Now that the Mad Mouse is in Baelish's employ, I think we're going to see some attempt at extraction happen. Then we'll see if it's to Cersei and death or to Varys and safety he intends to take her.

The Hound is of course a possibility too - I think few people, if any, even realize there was some emotional thing going on between Sansa and Sandor Clegane. It was very under-the-radar. (Maybe Varys, if he was really really paying attention. I doubt LF knows.)

I'm also convinced he was behind Jaime's attack on Ned and his men after they leave the brothel. Remember just before that Ned and Robert had gotten into that huge fight over killing Dany, and Ned resigned and was going to leave King's Landing. Well, who should approach Ned as he's planning to leave to have him look into one last clue regarding Jon Arryn's death before he goes? Petyr who so helpfully assists Ned in finding the young whore who bore Robert's newest child Barra. He knew Ned could not resist checking into that. Also, it's common knowledge that Jaime had a tendency to act rashly without thinking when riled up and word had just arrived in King's Landing that Cat had kidnapped Tyrion, Jaime's beloved little brother. All LF had to do was let it slip that Ned and some of his men were going to a brothel and word could have easily reached Jaime about that in time for him to confront Ned. Remember how fast LF flies off when Jaime shows up?

Oh, yeah, this has always been a serious possibility.

I wonder what grrm would think if he read something like that about the pomegranate symbolism etc... I just really doubt he went into that level of detail when writing. you guys just made him even smarter, if anything. :)

I've always suspected our various crackpot theories and intense speculations would give him a good laugh.

Moreover, I believe that Sansa's redeemer properties act unwittingly. She doesn't actively try to change people, she inspires them to change, which is probably why she is mostly successful in this sense (people don't react well to being asked to change).

I agree. I don't think is is (or can be) consciously done. I think it just comes about from Sansa being Sansa.