From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

[1234567]

Okay, given the app marking Sandor's place of death, let's hypothetically assume he is dead. If so what could the unkiss mean and all Sansa's thoughts about him?

Also where else could her story be headed if so? Killing LF certainly, but then what? Marriage to Aegon? We know from The re-read that she has a parallel running arc to Cersei, and that all Cersei's losses tie in with Sansa indirectly: abuse of Sansa caused the Tyrells to poison Joff, Aerys Oakheart in his one chapter has the shame over striking Sansa as one of the reasons why he goes along with Arienne's plan and Myrcella is injured. Jaime has gone off after a false Sansa, rather than go to Cersei's aid etc.

Also on the Lysa front I thought it was interesting that she returned to Riverrun to bare her children. I wonder if each stillborn child was a reminder to Hoster of what he'd done to her. Although she seems distraught over their deaths, I wonder if she could have loved the child of a man she hated so much. Also as it mentions she started the affair with LF at court. Given her comments about having a brother or sister for Robert, it seems very likely Sweetrobin is LF's, and perhaps that is the only reason he survived? Maybe a bit crackpot?

[brashcandy]

Good questions, Raps. With regard to Sandor, he doesn't have to be actually dead to be "dead" within the story - as in Martin simply decides not to bring him back. While I don't see this happening, I'm willing to consider the consequences :) I really do think that the effects of that relationship are already bearing fruit for Sansa, and whether or not Sandor shows up again, she'll be stronger for having met him. It's what I like to call the Sandor effect, a few examples being her investment in Mya and Lothor, her blossoming sexuality, and her instinctive understanding of what to do in times of crisis. I'm not suggesting that Sandor necessarily enabled these things, but I do believe he played a very significant role in helping to sharpen Sansa's natural strengths, bringing her out of her comfort zone from their first conversation, and of course to serve as an alternative (ultimately preferable?) object of affection. Martin appears to have set him up as almost the perfect foil to LF and the influence he could potentially have over Sansa. So even if they never meet again, and Sansa goes on to marry someone else (wow, I'm typing that like there might be a chance she and Sandor could get married - holyguacamoleexcusethisfangirlmomentpleaseibegyou), I think she'll consciously/unconsciously choose a man who resembles him in fundamental ways.

[Queen of Winter]

Good questions, Raps. With regard to Sandor, he doesn't have to be actually dead to be "dead" within the story - as in Martin simply decides not to bring him back. While I don't see this happening, I'm willing to consider the consequences :) I really do think that the effects of that relationship are already bearing fruit for Sansa, and whether or not Sandor shows up again, she'll be stronger for having met him. It's what I like to call the Sandor effect, a few examples being her investment in Mya and Lothor, her blossoming sexuality, and her instinctive understanding of what to do in times of crisis. I'm not suggesting that Sandor necessarily enabled these things, but I do believe he played a very significant role in helping to sharpen Sansa's natural strengths, bringing her out of her comfort zone from their first conversation, and of course to serve as an alternative (ultimately preferable?) object of affection. Martin appears to have set him up as almost the perfect foil to LF and the influence he could potentially have over Sansa. So even if they never meet again, and Sansa goes on to marry someone else (wow, I'm typing that like there might be a chance she and Sandor could get married - holyguacamoleexcusethisfangirlmomentpleaseibegyou), I think she'll consciously/unconsciously choose a man who resembles him in fundamental ways.

:laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes: :thumbsup:

[brashcandy]

:laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes: :thumbsup:

It was a brief breakdown :P

Also as it mentions she started the affair with LF at court. Given her comments about having a brother or sister for Robert, it seems very likely Sweetrobin is LF's, and perhaps that is the only reason he survived? Maybe a bit crackpot?

Not crackpot at all. I think the likelihood that the child is LF's is quite strong, although we may never have it confirmed in the story. It makes poor Sweetrobin's situation even more tragic too.

[1234567]

So even if they never meet again, and Sansa goes on to marry someone else (wow, I'm typing that like there might be a chance she and Sandor could get married - holyguacamoleexcusethisfangirlmomentpleaseibegyou), I think she'll consciously/unconsciously choose a man who resembles him in fundamental ways.

Don't worry, I'm still holding out on the slim chance of their being a Lord and Lady Clegane at the Keep on the Fingers! Really hoping the Jaime line about letting her forget she is a stark comes true. Also Alyane and Clegane even sound the same. :)

[Old-Growth]

Well, they had better lie low, lest Sandor's life expectancy decline precipitously....:-(:-(

Further Sansa is a Stark of Winterfell: she will not forget that ever again.

[Old-Growth]

Which, I think, means that our Petyr is not as clever as he likes to think he is nor is he the "self made man" that he tries to impress the world with. I think it means that it will be easier than one might thing for, oh, a certain grar-y she-wolf who finds out just who was behind Ned's execution and the destruction of her family, to bring him down. I think he will go down kicking, screaming, and trying to destroy everything and everyone he can, but down he will go.

Unless it is that other she-wolf, in which event he will go down in a way that is quick and fatal, either messily via Nymeria or neatly via Needle.

[Pod The Impaler]

I saw that just a bit ago and it had me wondering a bit but I don't really think it changes much when it comes to our suspicions of LF or how Sansa is likely to react to the latest news. He already told her the importance of knowing what a man wants and sold the Harry bethrothal as almost a seduction technique. I don't think this is an indicator of success at all really. The app also confirmed that LF was having an affair with Lysa while in KL and that she was the one that got him his positions in the Vale and KL. So, if seducing the opposite sex worked for him, he seems to think it will work for Sansa as well.

But, LF really does not know Sansa, she's been playing a part for his benefit and because of the need to protect herself. Sansa has shown how she wins allies and it isn't through seduction.

I'd also like to add that the app doesn't say anything about Cersei's valonquar and it most especially did not use the word queen either!!! That kinda made me feel good.

Personally, I think people taking the apps as canon-confirming material is a mistake.

[Lyanna Stark]

Personally, I think people taking the apps as canon-confirming material is a mistake.

Well, it is released as the official Song of Ice and Fire app, and GRRM himself calls it "official". Link here.

[bgona]

I´m seeing that I will have to email to Random House. I have an Android!!!! I really believe that this will be the correct one.

[Devaki Khanna]

Indeed. So he can take his place with the worst fathers in Westeros, right alongside the esteemed Tywin Lannister, Randyll Tarly and Craster.

I'm still struggling to understand this perception that Sandor is all brawn and little brains. Sure, he's no intellectual, but from what we've seen he's smart and sensitive. When he told Arya that Robb had need of him I didn't get the impression that he was talking about his fighting skills, and now that he's spending time on the Quiet Isle he has a chance to increase his knowledge through reading and study. And let's recall that the relationship between Sansa and Sandor developed through their conversations, and we've seen Sansa's appreciation for what she learnt from him during her time in KL.

Frankly, I think he was talking about his fighting skills--I don't think he was used in any other capacity by the Lannisters. They didn't bother to train Ilyn Payne, who headed Tywin's guardsmen when he was Hand, to read and write (see AFfC--the administration of the Black Cells--Jaime's POV)--why would they train Sandor? Then again, the mere fact that a Clegane, a newly ennobled house of the Westerlands, was fighting for the King in the North, would have been a propaganda victory for Robb.

He might be intelligent and he might be sensitive--perhaps his interaction with Sansa has made him realise that he is more than a hired killer. And perhaps his time on the Quiet Isle helps him develop, although, again, the septons we've encountered so far do not appear to be learned men.

[Lyanna Stark]

Frankly, I think he was talking about his fighting skills--I don't think he was used in any other capacity by the Lannisters. They didn't bother to train Ilyn Payne, who headed Tywin's guardsmen when he was Hand, to read and write (see AFfC--the administration of the Black Cells--Jaime's POV)--why would they train Sandor?

It's likely Sandor knows how to read and write since he mentions a Maester who gave him ointments after Gregor burned his face, meaning supposedly, Gregor and Sandor had a Maester to teach them reading, writing, heraldry etc. just like Maester Luwin teaches the Stark children.

Interestingly, Sandor is often mistaken for all brawn, the same way Sansa is mistaken for being just a pretty face with no brains. I think neither of them are stupid, and both have proven, in their own way, to be very perceptive of other people. Sandor in how he tells Sansa of what Joffrey wants from her and how he backs up her lie about Dontos, for instance. Sansa judges the Loras/Margaery/Joffrey situation correctly ("kingslayer stew") while bigger brains like Tyrion misjudges the situation (he thinks Loras needs to keep his sword close instead).

Sandor is also able to tell Arya at the Twins that he can pass for a peasant since nobody cares about peasants, but that his horse will catch more attention, for instance. Sandor may not be the smartest person in Westeros, but he certainly isn't a thickie.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

It's likely Sandor knows how to read and write since he mentions a Maester who gave him ointments after Gregor burned his face, meaning supposedly, Gregor and Sandor had a Maester to teach them reading, writing, heraldry etc. just like Maester Luwin teaches the Stark children.

Interestingly, Sandor is often mistaken for all brawn, the same way Sansa is mistaken for being just a pretty face with no brains. I think neither of them are stupid, and both have proven, in their own way, to be very perceptive of other people. Sandor in how he tells Sansa of what Joffrey wants from her and how he backs up her lie about Dontos, for instance. Sansa judges the Loras/Margaery/Joffrey situation correctly ("kingslayer stew") while bigger brains like Tyrion misjudges the situation (he thinks Loras needs to keep his sword close instead).

Sandor is also able to tell Arya at the Twins that he can pass for a peasant since nobody cares about peasants, but that his horse will catch more attention, for instance. Sandor may not be the smartest person in Westeros, but he certainly isn't a thickie.

I think Sandor is quite intelligent. I agree that people underestimate him based upon his brawn, just as people underestimate Sansa due to her beauty and sweetness. I believe there are stereotypes afoot here in that "brawn" is opposed to "brains" in many minds just as there is the stereotype that a pretty, conventionally feminine woman cannot be intelligent.

Sandor also swears a lot and I think that makes him sound less intelligent to modern ears than he is. Most middle-class people in most countries are brought up not to swear in public or at work or get falling-down drunk all the time. Sandor is a product of his culture where many knights and fighting men DID swear and drink.

Also - and it is clear when we see Randyll Tarly's attitude toward Sam - I think that most men were not raised to be "intellectuals" but to be warriors. They were taught to read and write, but as I see it, those below the rank of great lord mostly got reading, writing and math to get by in life. Someone like Ned Stark would have been carefully educated because he had to administer a vast territory with all the lesser lords reporting to him, so he had to know law, history, probably a great deal of accounting, and other more difficult subjects. Catelyn, too, as she was heiress to the Riverlands for much of her childhood. But someone like Sandor who was the second son of a minor lord and thus not expected to do much but fight would have got a very simple education.

Sandor has a very practical intelligence which we see when he's advising Sansa on the workings of the court and how to survive there. Everyone's a liar, so don't believe them - and learn to lie better yourself, little bird. Give Joffrey what he wants. Etc. Nope, not a thickie at all.

Now if you want an example of dumb muscle, there is Victarion Greyjoy, who IS a huge thickie. Even monkeys laugh at him.

[Kittykatknits]

Now if you want an example of dumb muscle, there is Victarion Greyjoy, who IS a huge thickie. Even monkeys laugh at him.

Love this. Didn't Martin call him dumb as a stump?

I agree on the interpretation of Sandor. He's not an intellectual but that doesn't make him stupid. The sense that I get is he's developed the skills that will be of most benefit to his character and path in life. From his scenes, we know he can hunt, understands directions, maps, geography, he as a good sense of court politics, can read other people, fight, determine battle strategy, and more. You aren't going to find him translating old texts or reading history books or taking over the Master of Coin position, or heading off to become a Maester (now wouldn't that be a plot twist!?!?). The two characters that most come to mind for me when it comes to a more traditional form of "smarts" are Sam and Tyrion.

But, this isn't really unusual. People going in to the medical field study anatomy, those pursuing engineering may spend more time on math, and so on. In Westeros, blacksmiths would study their trade to a great deal but their lack of knowledge when it comes to herbs doesn't make them stupid. It's just not a pursuit they have had the opportunity or desire for. Varys is a master of disguise and word play but, as he says so himself, there isn't much he can do when swords and fighting are involved.

Different strengths, different talents, intelligence manifesting in different ways.

[Quiet Isle]

Unless it is that other she-wolf, in which event he will go down in a way that is quick and fatal, either messily via Nymeria or neatly via Needle.

Makes more sense for UnCat to eviscerate LF, just like Brandon would have done if Cat hadn't stopped him.

[Quiet Isle]

Let's leave Ramsay for Nymeria and her pack of wolves. and of course, Arya swooping in and flaying him upside down in the wood. skins for her Pack.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Rapsie: with regard to the unKiss and its meaning if Sandor is really dead: as of AFFC, Sansa is despairing of anyone loving her for herself and not her claim. I think the unKiss might have meaning for her as a memory of someone who did love her for herself. It could be a source of strength for Sansa that she carries in her heart; no matter what happens as far as who she marries, she was valued for herself once and there is hope she could be again. "Someone really did kiss me because he wanted to, not because he thought he could get Winterfell that way."

I hope my phrasing doesn't come across as hopelessly romance-novel corny. :)

[Le Cygne]

That's really beautiful, actually. :)

[Éadaoin]

Don't worry, I'm still holding out on the slim chance of their being a Lord and Lady Clegane at the Keep on the Fingers! Really hoping the Jaime line about letting her forget she is a stark comes true. Also Alyane and Clegane even sound the same. :)

I really hope Sansa doesn't forget she is a Stark.

I just reread the bit in ASOS (or was it AFFC? Damn ereader) where she is dying to say that she is a Stark of Winterfell, and it made me smile.

[Le Cygne]

This is supposed to be Sansa's section in the app:

"Tyrion tells Sansa he will never touch her against her will." (but he did)

"Tyrion seems grim and resolved". (no Sansa seems)

"Tyrion tries to treat her kindly, but is kept busy with his new duties..."

"Sansa watches as Joffrey begins to mock and insult her husband."

"Littlefinger shows Sansa the small towerhouse he calls home, making mock of the poverty he has come from."

"At the Eyrie, Sansa attempts to stay out of trouble but Littlefinger's attentions continue to turn to her. After he helps her build a castle of snow, he kisses her." (no mention about how Sansa feels about the kiss, that it happens again, that she built it first, and that it was Winterfell)

"Myranda gossips with Alayne on the way, discussing Harry the Heir and Lothar Brune's infatuation with Mya." (no mention that Sansa is thinking about Sandor kissing her)

"[Littlefinger] seems intent on teaching her how to manipulate men." (no Sansa seems)

"Littlefinger introduces her to..."

"He also informs her that..."

"Littlefinger reveals that..."

"Littlefinger says that..."

"Littlefinger says that..."

Sansa thought of Sandor over a dozen times in ASOS and AFFC (I counted thirteen, one more time than he brought her up in ASOS), but that was not mentioned.

I'll sum it up, I was tired last night. And I mean this as constructive criticism, reading it as an editor. It's a very long section and at some point, the focus shifts away from Sansa:

We are told how Tyrion, Littlefinger, and even Lothar Brune feel about things (Tyrion seems, Littlefinger seems, Lothar is infatuated). Negative things they do are left out (Tyrion's naked grope, Littlefinger's further kissing). Sansa's reactions to these things, and just about everything else, is left out. Tyrion promises to leave Sansa alone and is kind to her to her, but Sandor never says "I'll keep you safe", he just threatens her and forces her to sing. Sansa doesn't respond to Sandor by cupping his cheek and wearing his cloak. She "fears" Sandor will try to kiss her, but she doesn't fear her wedding night. We hear about Tyrion's duties and Littlefinger's home, but can we hear a little more about Sansa, or else leave these things out. We got Tyrion seems. We got Littlefinger seems. How about Sansa seems. She doesn't even get credit for building snow Winterfell. She doesn't miss Sandor or her family. She isn't sad and lonely. I don't expect interpretations of thoughts or dreams, just some sense that she's a person, too.