From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

[Lyanna Stark]

Interesting and comprehensive Littlefinger analysis. :)

Perhaps not everyone is redeemable, and for some her gentle nature brings out the worst in them (Joffrey, Cersei). Yet we do not know what run's through Littlefinger's mind any more than we know the Hound's. Perhaps he gets a redemption arc too. Maybe not that much, but perhaps through Sansa we'll see more of Petyr emerge, from behind the masks of Littlefinger and Lord Baelish.

I'm not 100% convinced that we cannot know the Hound a bit better than LF, since Sandor doesn't make any effort to hide anything exactly. Petyr Baelish makes every effort to hide what he really feels and thinks, which makes it harder to get a good grasp on him.

[David Selig]

I'm not done going through all of Pod's analysis, so forgive me if this is mentioned in parts 4-6. Has anyone ever suggested that LF's duel with Brandon was a kind of scheme rather than an act by a helpless boy crazed with love?

Rather than a breaking point- where LF realized that "life was not a song"-- I was wondering if the duel was something more purposeful on LF's part. Knowing he wasn't going to be elevated through status alone, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility he staged this farce. I think there's a chance he banked on Cat's goodness and Brandon's "Stark honor" to not harm him mortally. What this little event effected is to guarantee a sense of guilt and implicit trust from Cat, which he could later use; he knew from Lysa's already present obsession with him that he did not need any similar act to guarantee her loyalty to him. By no means do I suggest that LF already had any real plan, but I wondered if this was one of his "masks" to secure Cat- who was to be in a highly prominent political position as the wife of the Warden of the North-- into his pocket.

At it's most sentimental, I'd thought LF's investment in Cat was more possessive than love as such, but I'll hold off until I'm done with Pod's analysis. :cool4:

Interesting idea, but I find it really unlikely. LF was already a close friend of Catelyn before the duel. And angering both Hoster Tully and the Stark heir, both of which had a lot more power and influence than Catleyn, was quite counter-productive for his plans to get ahead in life.

Impressive analysis, Pod, I don't have time to read it all now, but he part I read have been top notch and thought-provoking.

[PetitOiseau]

Wow! Bravo, Pod! Your analysis is impressive! Great read. :D

[brashcandy]

Now, for Littlefinger, he sees all that and thinks one word - “potential”. Sansa is as beautiful as her mother ever was, maybe more; she is as highborn as she one be without actually having royal blood; she has a sweet nature and romantic heart (maybe more than her mother ever did); with some political education she may have the charisma and instincts to be a game-player. Perhaps Littlefinger has found his new queen of love and beauty, and his queen piece for his game.

[END OF PART 1]

Indeed. It's about the potential she represents and what he can shape her into. She already has all the assets he wants - youth, innocence and she's Cat's daughter, who looks very much like Catelyn herself. I think this explains the complexity and perversity of his fantasy: it's not simply that she's Cat's doppelganger, but that at the same time she represents what he could have had with Cat.

[PART 2]

SANSA STARK AS CATELYN TULLY II - CATELYN “PERFECTED” ?

What kind of woman Sansa becomes as a result of that is a wild-card, an unknown future even to her. Struggle for agency? A nice euphemism for the fact everyone she met has tried to make her into something that serves their interests (Littlefinger included), while she tries to grind out some version of herself that is actually her own design.

I think Sandor is the notable exception here. He wants her to wise up about the threats around her certainly, and does espouse his cynical views, but ultimately if there's one person who acted with nothing to gain from Sansa, it would have to be him. Which of course makes him the direct antithesis to everything LF represents.

Of course, this is not as straightforward as all that, and Littlefinger knows it. It is a complex process. First, he has to know Sansa's way of thinking, her weaknesses. Second, he has to create opportunities to exploit that, and drive her towards him alone; he cannot be heavy-handed about it, but must make it seem comfortable, and natural for her, so in the end she willingly turns to choosing him. Third, he has to earn her trust and be seen as benevolent in his aims, but also diminish those influences on her which present mental and moral obstacles to his plans.

This is true. It's a slow process of grooming and corruption, one where he's certain he can win if he just sets the stage right, whilst providing little clues and hints on how she needs to act and think. He wants Sansa to come to him, and indeed it seems he's either consciously or unconsciously recreating the scene of his humiliation in the Vale, except that now he thinks he has a sure chance of winning.

What snags are those ? Sansa's love for her family, her homesickness, her northern heritage, her empathy and kindness, her conscience and ingrained idealism, and her desire for true love - among other things. (How he deals with these will be explained later.)

And what important snags these are! :) LF can appreciate them in so much as he needs in order to undermine and exploit their holds on Sansa, but does he understand the true depth and meaning of these qualities? It’s comparable to his perception of Winterfell as a cold harsh place, when in reality, as Sansa notes, it was always warm and comfortable.

When Sansa's told it will not be dashing knight Loras the Tyrells want her to marry, but sheltered cripple Willas, she is disappointed, but quickly transfers her fantasies onto Willas (whom she has never met), dreams of marriage and flowers and having babies, and being loved by the whole Tyrell family. Really, these fantasies are likely flowing from the idea of rescue - she can escape Joffrey, the Lannisters, and her woeful life as a captive in King's Landing. Willas represents safety, but she idealizes her potential relationship with him. It does not occur to her until later that the Tyrells are not really rescuers, but rather are just another set of captors only interested in her claim to the North. Indeed, Willas might be a nice man and her life there could be good, but when the whole thing is quashed, she comes to understand they loved her claim, not her. They like her, they may even appreciate her confiding in them, but they were not about to break their alliance with the Lannisters to save her.

Good job explaining how she romanticizes those "rescuers" but it's not so straightforward when it comes to Willas Tyrell I would argue. Yes, she does talk about the puppies on the lap and sailing down the Mander, but by this time, we're witnessing a stronger Sansa too, a bit more realistic and resolved to actively make her relationship with Willas work, not simply taking for granted that it will happen.

As all that is going on, we get two examples of Sansa passing over potential rescuers: The Hound and The Imp. The dynamics here are quite complex (and full of irony), but in both cases, their genuine efforts to protect her do not fit her preconceived notions of rescue and therefore do not lead to romance. They do not look like her ideal of what a rescuer should be; they are closer to her image of the monsters she would need rescuing from. (Still, the shell of her preconceptions begins to crack, the more she comes in contact with them.)

When she's praying in the chapter towards the end of ACOK we see that does appreciate them as persons who helped her, even though she remains aware of each man's limitations. I think the important difference here between the two men is that she honestly got to know one of them, and Sandor eventually makes a firm break with the Lannisters. When she is forced into her marriage with Tyrion, he becomes yet another person who wants to use her for her claim and she resents the lies he told her.

This is all just the setup for the man who wants to be her Greatest Rescuer Of All : Lord Petyr Baelish. He is a man who knows what people want, and how to move them. What he knows about Sansa is: She believes in the songs and stories of knightly valour; to win her heart, to be desired by her, you have to be her gallant rescuer. It is the basis of his game with her. He is constructing an ideal version of himself in her mind, to win her trust and convert her gratitude and need for safety into desire. After all, isn't the hero who slays the monster the one who gets the girl?

Agree with all this; and really, LF knows he’ll never fit the mold of a traditional hero, so he has to find other ways of rising in Sansa’s esteem, hence the focus on telling her of his plots and schemes, and engaging her in finding out his strategies. The more he can build up Sansa’s admiration and trust in him, the more he can ensure that he stands head and shoulders above every other man in her estimation.

[Devaki Khanna]

[PART 6]

FATE'S BREAKING POINTS:

All of the above coalesces into one big messy amorphous mass of emotions for Sansa. At this point in ASOIAF, we cannot be certain what Sansa is feeling, let alone becoming. She does not know herself. What we're seeing in Sansa has been complex, contradictory, and even paradoxical. Yet there are moments we can see coming, decision points, where circumstances may force her to act decisively. Maybe for Littlefinger, maybe against him. Most of these involve some sort of information, and some involve some sort of relationship. What it comes down to is as these emotional gateways are passed, the Sansa that went in may not be the same Sansa that comes out.

Aunt Lysa's revelations: This is the information H-bomb that has already dropped. Sansa has yet to fully comprehend and process what Aunt Lysa told her just before being shunted out the Moon Door. (Perhaps Littlefinger pushed her out because she was telling Sansa what Sansa was never meant to hear.)

Sansa was too young to understand when it happened, but the death of Jon Arryn is basically what set off her whole betrothal and her father's going to King's Landing as Hand. It also set in motion the death of the King, the death of her family, and the fracturing of the realm in a war that saw unprecedented levels of violence and atrocities. If it were all laid at the doorstep of the wrong people from the outset, then how much suffering need never have happened (to her or anyone else)? At the time she was told, Sansa was on the verge of being murdered by her crazy aunt, so she has naturally focused on that (with Littlefinger's dismissal of Lysa's rantings). But with a bit of time and perhaps a bit more information, Sansa may see it clearly, and what her Aunt said will click together like puzzle pieces, forming a very ugly picture. Perhaps that will awake the dormant wolf in Sansa. Yet even if Sansa never acts on the information, the fact she has it might be incredibly dangerous - if anyone but her and Littlefinger knew what Lysa's last moments were like, if they knew the secrets that were spoken, there would be seven hells to pay. Sansa is endangered just by knowing it, just for the potential she could tell it to someone one day.

The Valyrian Knife: related to the whole Jon Arryn issue is the whole issue regarding what happened to Bran. Not so much that Jaime pushed him out a window, but rather the attempt on his life which took place later. Catelyn captured Tyrion based on the issue of the knife, and this led to the fight between her father and Jaime, and sparked the war - though the war may already have been coming. Littlefinger's lie to Catelyn and Ned about the knife was a great betrayal, but if you think about it, the lie was really just to ingratiate himself to them and get close. Nobody predicted Catelyn would seize Tyrion at the crossroads, or anything else from that point on. The getting close to Ned, though, was leading up to the moment Littlefinger decided to set him up to be betrayed and captured. That deleted Ned from Catelyn and Sansa's life quite effectively. Sansa never knew about the knife, not until Tyrion happened to get into that subject on Joffrey's wedding day. She knows there was something to do with Tyrion being accused of of tyring to harm Bran, but now that she's in the Vale, she may learn more about the specifics - the Valyrian knife and the connection to Littlefinger's identifying it as Tyrion's, and thus Tyrion's trial by combat.

The Coup: Sansa does not know a great deal about what took place on the day her household in King's Landing was slaughtered and her father arrested for treason. As she got her rude awakening as a captive, she was fed only information they thought to tell her. Yet, Sansa has not done much thinking back to what happened that day - specifically Littlefinger's role. She knows Littlefinger was among the council when she was brought before the Queen. One thing that could spark a new outlook within her are the fact that she provided information that basically tipped the balance against her father in that conflict - there will be a lot of guilt over that, and maybe there already is some and she just blocks it out. Another thing is the fact that Littlefinger basically suckered her father into the fatal trap. If she knew how active he was in the events of that day, she may finally see him as her father's mortal enemy. There's a big difference between her father being just bad at the game, and having lost because Littlefinger betrayed him. All it would take is a bit of information about how instrumental Littlefinger was in the events that day, and the whole Lannister Coup is seen in a new light.

Jeyne Poole / false Arya: Sansa has thought little about Arya since her ordeals began. However, Arya simply disappeared. Sansa knows Jeyne Poole was captured and taken into Littlefinger's custody. She has not dwelt on the issue, but what if she did recall it, and ask what became of her best friend ? Or perhaps actually find out ? Somewhere up north is the false Arya Stark - her best friend Jeyne, trained mercilessly by Littlefinger in a brothel and sold off to the bastard of Bolton for the claim that is rightfully Sansa's. The thing about this one is if Sansa should ever be in conflict with “Arya”, Sansa could recognize the truth with just a glimpse. This would be a pretty sticky point morally, because of course even if Jeyne is on the other side, this girl was her best friend and Sansa knows hat happened to her and may even feel a bit responsible. As well, Sansa knowing it's Jeyne brings her right back to the day it was decided Jeyne would be dealt with by Littlefinger. Any knowledge of what Littlefinger did with her would likely turn his image more monstrous in her eyes. As well, Sansa might not know it's even a fake Arya, but if she's found by a certain Maid of Tarth, then she soon will.

Real Arya / The Hound: If Sansa should meet that same Maid of Tarth, she may learn that her sister was a captive (or accomplice) of The Hound. People other than Brienne know this too. She has done little thinking about her sister, but who knows what sort of emotions she might feel if she found out her sister and The Hound travelled together, and how close they were. Relief ? Jealousy ? Fear ? One wonders if she would risk her current state of semi-safety as Alayne to find her sister. On the other hand, The Hound was accused of terrible crimes at the Saltpans, so it makes one wonder whether she'd believe such accusations. Also there's the other implication - that the Hound died at the Saltpans, or her sister did, or both. Knowing any of this, it might spur a big decision about her own situation.

Sweetrobin dying: This will be a big one. Sansa doesn't entirely like Sweetrobin, but Alayne does take care of him. There are some mothering instincts going on there, and this is a fairly helpless child. As well, she may see a parallel because Sweetrobin is also passed around and fought over because of his claim - who ever actually loved the boy himself except his own mother ? Lord Baelish insists the prognosis for Sweetrobin is a bleak one, but Sansa may be suspicious that if (when) Lord Robert dies it will not be from natural causes. The constant leechings may be sapping his strength rather than helping him. The sweetsleep being administered is clearly dangerous, but then again, Alayne once insisted on it over the Maester's objections too. The question here is, would Sansa really let herself be stand by as this child - her own cousin - dies? Would she try to save him, or would she just go along with this Harry The Heir plan which basically requires Sweetrobin's life to be written off ? We really don't know, but I suspect how she deals with this will say much about what sort of person she becomes.

Minty kisses: Lord Baelish keep sneaking kisses with Sansa when they are alone. Two long kisses now, and clearly not platonic. These may be the most “real” kisses she has yet had. A bit of shock and worry has accompanied each. However, if it keeps happening, it's going to lead to some sort of emotional reaction. Something will awaken. It could be arousal; it could be longing for someone else; it could be fear; it could be anger. After all, we already have a previous example of what an abrupt change in a relationship a kiss can bring about - with Daenerys and Ser Jorah. Littlefinger may get more forward with his advances too. We are not yet privy to the exact nature of his schemes regarding Harry The Heir, but it's doubtful he will set aside his desires for real.

Marry, it rhymes with Harry: If Sansa is betrothed again, this has great potential to force a decisive turn from her. First of all, it is predicated on Tyrion being dead or some other annulling factor. Maybe she never wanted to be Mrs. Imp, but either out of gratitude or some unusual outbreak of piety or Stark honour, she might reject any plan that actually sets in motion his death. Second, there is of course the fact that this is yet another marriage arranged by others, and she may balk at that, especially if her heart gets set on (a past or future) someone else. Third, there's Harry himself, who we do not know much of, aside from the fact he may be enough of a ladies' man to have a couple of bastards. Sansa may not be willing to overlook womanizing, and when it comes to bastards, she is Catelyn Tully's daughter so she may find that unacceptable (Alayne or no). So, for these and maybe other reasons, I would say that just because Lord Baelish arranged it does not mean it will actually happen.

The Last Stark - Or So She Thought: Sansa right now assumes she is the last of her family. Her parents and Robb are dead. Bran and Rickon and believed dead. Arya is assumed to be dead. Jon is believed alive, but he's a half brother and far away on the Wall. Jeyne Poole - not family but important - she has heard nothing of her for years. Much of what she has done, she has done because she feels she is utterly alone. Just hearing Jon had been named Lord Commander of the Wall was enough to break her composure for a moment, and start longing for her family again. If she were to find out some of the supposedly dead are alive, this would be a shock, and might spark a change in her attitude or decisions. If she was given a chance to meet any of them again, she may take a big risk to do so. ... And then there's Lady Stoneheart. It would be a bigger shock to find out her mother has been transformed from a murder victim to a vengeful undead thing that prowls the woods with outlaws hanging people without mercy. Her mother was her template of womanhood, so who knows where such knowledge would lead.

THE FUTURE IS NOT SET - THERE IS NO FATE BUT WHAT SHE MAKES:

In the end, we have looked at what Petyr Baelish's presence has meant to Sansa's past and present. What kind of future does it seem to lead her to ? What kind of person will Sansa become because of him (or despite him) ? ASOIAF has been full of surprises, so one prediction will not do. Even several may not be enough, as the future is murky and any predictions might be invalidated later or just blur together. Nevertheless, here's a few possible ways Sansa's future might go...

I - The Caged Bird: We hope for Sansa to become more than what she has been, a girl with inner purpose and clear agency. However, maybe in the end, she just doesn't have it in her. She will never be more than a captive, her fate never really in her hands. She will not be a player, just a pawn. She simply may not have the cunning or the will to break free of her situation and be a true daughter of Winterfell. Maybe she will survive, but always live in grief and fear, singing empty songs devoid of meaning. Perhaps she will finally be bedded, and not by anyone she desires. Or perhaps she will remain chaste and lonely, until all possibility of achieving love and marriage are gone. This is the saddest or most disappointing possibility - a Red Wedding of the soul. In the end, we find out that Lady's death actually predicted perfectly what Sansa would be. She lost her wolf, and with that, she lost her future.

II - Lady Baelish: This is the best-case scenario for Petyr Baelish, his goal of converting her to his lady love is achieved. In the end, Sansa chooses him, maybe for love, maybe for pragmatism. They get married, they have babies. They both are players, on the same team and she acts as his willing accomplice. The House of Baelish is their legacy, built together into a new great house. How horrible or pleasant this is depends on one's subjective judgement, and maybe on a few developments we have not seen yet. Perhaps she is never the great game-player he is, but is a loyal and dutiful wife and content to be a good mother to their children. Or maybe she does become and excellent game-player wicked and cunning, and together they bind Westeros to their will. (Perhaps even becoming the new royal house or marrying their kids into it.) For the Sansa we know, is this a defeat, or just the triumph of the adult game over childish dreams and ideals ? Nobody would much like it, but maybe a vexed fan base is as valid as a content one.

III - Lady Stark the Queen of Ice: Sansa Stark becomes a dangerous game-player, along the lines of Littlefinger himself, but with an image more like the Queen of Thorns, Cersei Lannister, Melisandre, or Arianne Martell. However, unlike the second option, this Sansa has nothing emotional to bind her to Littlefinger (or anyone else). She takes his knowledge, uses his own weaknesses, usurps his power, and then destroys him. This would not be out of revenge, but rather because she has become like him. Scheming, manipulating and backstabbing become second nature to her. Old values such as having compassion, acting with honour, or finding true love are buried by a blizzard of cynicism; these are childish dreams she gave up on so she would never be helpless or heartbroken again. In other words, she follows the emotional path Young Petyr did, becomes the new Littlefinger, and then removes the old one. She is a game-player, and the game makes people into monsters. This would make her story an anti-redemption arc (a corruption arc?).

IV - Fly Little Bird, Fly: Sansa is under the care of an older man whom she knows is deceitful and dangerous. He wants her to be part of his nefarious schemes. Worse, he wants her - period. It is only a matter of time before she is morally and sexually compromised. Eventually all the lies she tells herself to endure her situation might break down, and she decides that it is time to rescue herself. She looks for an opening, finds it, and flees. Maybe she runs to somewhere in particular, or maybe to someone. It is risky as hell, and probably death for her if caught, but of all possibilities, this is the one with the most chaotic outcomes. Perhaps she may take Sweetrobin, and try to be the rescuer instead of the rescued. Perhaps she will realize there are other Starks still alive, and she will rush to rejoin them.

V - A Wolf Reborn: Perhaps after a lot of soul-searching and a lot of fear and ethical compromise, Sansa decides enough is enough, and snaps back to being a daughter of Winterfell. She may never be like Arya / Nymeria, but we will see this Lady find her iron will, rediscover her honour, and the develop the commanding presence her mother and father once had. This would be at odds with her need for safety, but maybe she gets tired of being safe and living a lie. She is a Stark - the last Stark, and she will not be known as the only Stark who was craven or dishonourable. This version of her might try escape, or emerge afterwards as a result of being under nobody's power. Or maybe she will stay put but stand her ground more forcefully on the things that matter to her. There may be elements of the game player in her, but this version will have a healthy contempt for the underhanded nature of game. This Sansa may also be dangerous to Lord Baelish, but for reasons of revenge. If that is in the cards, likely the cause of the transformation will be the realization of the things he has done, and what it all means. Littlefinger has much to answer for, especially where it concerns her family.

VI - Sansa The Redeemer: I save my most crackpot possibility for last. Sansa redeems Littlefinger. Maybe after the schemes play out, Lord Baelish realizes that though he wants Sansa, or maybe even loves her, he cannot have her. Her feelings are simply not there for him, and he has to pull back before he does something even he would consider monstrous. Maybe Lord Baelish decides to be truly gallant and remorseful, to save Catelyn's daughter for real and try to make up for what he has done.

Sound out of character ? Nope, not since we know the kind of person young Petyr once was: heroic and idealistic. Death did not frighten Petyr, only the idea of giving in. He too once believed in songs and stories, in the idea of having something better than the emotional morass he has dwelled in since his rejection by Catelyn and duel with Brandon Stark. Somewhere in him, young Petyr maybe be fighting to get out, and wants to save Sansa (from himself).

There is perhaps something I call “The Sansa Effect”. Sansa is maybe more than charming, courteous, and beautiful. Maybe she is blessed - blessed with an ability to influence the emotional path of others, to break through their armour, all their rage and spite and coldness. She is a catalyst that transforms the tormented into better versions of themselves. The Hound was a man driven by deep-seated hatred, and bitterly served evil masters while being numb to his own conscience. After interaction with Sansa, he finally confronted his own terrible acts and dark desires, and it broke his loyalty to the evil masters he served. Tyrion was a man who subsumed his own sense of justice and honour for the sake of living up to the monstrous family he belonged to. His interactions with Sansa made him try to act like a the more noble man he had the potential to be, and brought the conflict between him and the rest of his family to a head. A monster he might be, but he would not let them harm Sansa as they (and he) harmed Tysha. Lancel Lannister received kindness from Sansa, despite having treated her poorly himself. Her compassion towards him may have helped him go from arrogance to remorse to piety. Dontos Hollard was a ruin of a man, a drunkard without a hope of doing anything but embarrassing himself, but Sansa saved his life and in a way enabled him to be a knight again. Even remotely, Sansa is central to Brienne becoming a quest knight and Jaime grudgingly trying to salvage his lost honour.

Perhaps not everyone is redeemable, and for some her gentle nature brings out the worst in them (Joffrey, Cersei). Yet we do not know what run's through Littlefinger's mind any more than we know the Hound's. Perhaps he gets a redemption arc too. Maybe not that much, but perhaps through Sansa we'll see more of Petyr emerge, from behind the masks of Littlefinger and Lord Baelish.

Yes--she has a transformative effect on her captors, which makes me wonder if her method of ressistance--words and wits, passive ressistance--is not closer to what Mahatma Gandhi or Nelson Mandela wanted to achieve--to transform the oppressors, until they realise that they are doing evil and divorce themselves from the agency that makes them do evil. Sansa is a very devout girl--notice her going to the sept and the godswood regularly. It might be that she did this to earn brownie points socially during her captivity--but she does this as a matter of course--she prays and cares for her father when he is attacked by the Lannisters in AGoT. Yes, she needs to wisen up to look out for herself and those close to her. And if she is wise, she will learn what she must from Littlefinger, to survive in a very dangerous world. After all, the Hound advised her to tell Joffrey what he wanted to hear--she used that maxim to survive King's Landing. She could afford to show Tyrion her displeasure with their marriage, because she knew he was a kind man who would not hurt her and would listen to her. Again, Dontos told her that the Tyrells and the Lannisters both wanted her claim to the north, not her.

[Elba the Intoner]

Pod, what a great and very thorough analysis! You captured Petyr's influence on Sansa in every angle. Here's a few things that I wanted to comment on:

[PART 2]

SANSA STARK AS CATELYN TULLY II - CATELYN “PERFECTED” ?

What Petyr Baelish sees and knows of Sansa Stark seems is almost all external. He knows she is her mother's daughter, by her look and by her manners, and her ideals are romantic ones. Cooing over the pretty and gallant knights, thinking life should be like the songs and stories, and she's always such a good girl whose courtesy never fails. Young Petyr loved her mother, but she was as unattainable as she was noble. He sees Sansa as Catelyn the Second (Chance) - so much like her, but younger and more beautiful. Sansa is innocent, where Catelyn was a bit wicked; she is perhaps more pliable, where her mother was openly headstrong; she is kinder and sweeter, where her mother, for all her ladylike courtesy, could at times be cruel.

Here Lord Baelish is viewing things through a lens of his own nostalgia and regret. He is not entirely blind to this fact, but this time, it it he who is different - a lord, a cunning and powerful man, a smooth operator instead of a hopeless boy. Sansa is so beautiful and with his help she can be perfect - the gods have given him a second chance here, to rewrite history with himself as the winner. (And if that victory is also revenge against the houses of Tully, Arryn, and Stark, how much sweeter it will be!)

Of course, this is not as straightforward as all that, and Littlefinger knows it. It is a complex process. First, he has to know Sansa's way of thinking, her weaknesses. Second, he has to create opportunities to exploit that, and drive her towards him alone; he cannot be heavy-handed about it, but must make it seem comfortable, and natural for her, so in the end she willingly turns to choosing him. Third, he has to earn her trust and be seen as benevolent in his aims, but also diminish those influences on her which present mental and moral obstacles to his plans.

What snags are those ? Sansa's love for her family, her homesickness, her northern heritage, her empathy and kindness, her conscience and ingrained idealism, and her desire for true love - among other things. (How he deals with these will be explained later.)

This is the key to his feelings for Sansa and also his weak point in regards to how he deals with her. As soon as he caught sight of her in King's Landing, any thought of trying to win Cat back after getting rid of Ned went out the window. I think that's one of the reasons we don't see him react to Cat's death at the Red Wedding, because he finally gave her up once Sansa came into the picture. However, as others have noted, Sansa is only superficially, in terms of her looks, like Cat, but is much more like Ned, her real father in personality and character. While you mention that Petyr has to overcome certain 'snags" to win her over, I think this is the biggest one and the one he underestimates the most because he views her as Cat 2.0 who would not feel as tied to Winterfell or the North, as she was from the Riverlands.

A FAIR MAIDEN WAITING TO BE SAVED:

The rescue fantasies seem to be central to her thought processes, throughout the story, though there is transference in her mind about who that (handsome, gallant) rescuer might be and gradual transmutation of her sense of what rescue looks like. Still, the theme remains - her ideas of love and desire are wedded to ideas of rescue. However, the process is not a clear one. Sometimes she passes over an actual rescuer who doesn't fit into her “handsome prince” archetype, while turning her heart towards some others simply because they represent the potential of rescue. As the story progresses, you can see the different potential rescuers whom she idealizes.

This is all just the setup for the man who wants to be her Greatest Rescuer Of All : Lord Petyr Baelish. He is a man who knows what people want, and how to move them. What he knows about Sansa is: She believes in the songs and stories of knightly valour; to win her heart, to be desired by her, you have to be her gallant rescuer. It is the basis of his game with her. He is constructing an ideal version of himself in her mind, to win her trust and convert her gratitude and need for safety into desire. After all, isn't the hero who slays the monster the one who gets the girl ?

[END OF PART 2]

Agreed, and similar to what I said above about the superficiality of his view of Sansa as Cat, I think this is the other big snag here because he is missing out on some key changes in Sansa's viewpoint about her notions of chivalry, romanticism and the good guy slaying the "monster". He made this assessment of her back in AGOT before her whole life was destroyed and I think he doesn't recognize that her views are not exactly the same by Feast as they were then. Yes, she still believes in a chivalric code, but her ideas of who "fits" the roles of knight and monster has changed significantly. He has tried to portray himself in her mind as her savior and knight, as you pointed out, but she's also seen things from him which are giving her the underlying suspicion that he is more of a "monster" than saviour.

[PART 3]

FALL AS AN ANGEL, RISE AS A DEVIL - LUCIFINGER, LORD BAELZEBUB :

However, this brings us the the third persona, the one that is deepest down and not shown openly to anyone: Petyr. Petyr is the boy that Baelish once was, the one who loved Catelyn Tully and fought for her hand, and he is almost the antithesis of Littlefinger.

Young Petyr is more like the protagonist in one of the songs and stories Sansa loves so much. Petyr is a slight lad, but brave and clever and perhaps handsome. He came from a relatively poor and obscure home to prove his worth among one of the greatest houses in the realm. Along the way he rescues the daughters of the house when they are lost in a treacherous fog. He receives his first kiss from Catelyn Tully, the beautiful first daughter of the noble lord, and falls in love with her. Later, when he learns she is to be married off to some beastly northern warrior, the lovestruck boy challenges the full-grown killer for the right to her hand. And even when he's hopelessly overmatched, he refuses to give up and fights on, willing to die rather than give up his chance to be with the girl he loves.

When you consider it this way, Petyr sounds like exactly the kind of boy that the girl Sansa would fall in love with - gallant, brave, idealistic, and willing to sacrifice everything for his true love. A tragic love story to be sure, but the hero is the kind of boy who is destined to be a true knight. After all, shouldn't the hero who fights the monster be worthy of the girl's love ?

So what happened to Petyr the Hero ? Reality happened, cold and cruel. Catelyn Tully became Catelyn Stark, and it did not even really matter to which Stark, because her feelings for Petyr never equalled his feelings for her. Petyr carried a torch for her, and though he clearly could have chosen to be with some other noble woman, he never did - settling down would have meant settling for less than what he truly wanted. After his duel, the realization that Catelyn would marry Eddard Stark was the coup-de-grace after his duel with Brandon Stark. It drove home the message that there was truly no hope - it wasn't just that he couldn't fight as well with a sword, it was the whole system he was up against, one which scorned everything about him. For the first time he may have seen that the Tullys, Arryns, and Starks - and all the rest - looked down on him, and always would. Talent and intelligence didn't matter, devotion and love didn't matter, honour and courage didn't really matter. He was only as worthy as his claim, and he was the heir of some rocks and sheep pellets at best, so they would never see him as worthy at all.

Petyr was a naive boy with no control over his situation and nothing to offer Catelyn except his heart. Petyr the good-hearted and loving boy died in that duel, and was reborn as Littlefinger and Lord Baelish, rising up harder and stronger. Lord Baelish is all about power and Littlefinger is all about control, so this time the situation will bend to his will. This time, with Sansa, it will be very different. Yet, it is his persona as Petyr the Hero that may be the key to his interactions with Sansa after all. The question is whether some part of Petyr is left in him, or if he is so far gone into being Littlefinger and Lord Baelish that he can never turn back.

[PART 6]

THE FUTURE IS NOT SET - THERE IS NO FATE BUT WHAT SHE MAKES:

VI - Sansa The Redeemer: I save my most crackpot possibility for last. Sansa redeems Littlefinger. Maybe after the schemes play out, Lord Baelish realizes that though he wants Sansa, or maybe even loves her, he cannot have her. Her feelings are simply not there for him, and he has to pull back before he does something even he would consider monstrous. Maybe Lord Baelish decides to be truly gallant and remorseful, to save Catelyn's daughter for real and try to make up for what he has done.

Sound out of character ? Nope, not since we know the kind of person young Petyr once was: heroic and idealistic. Death did not frighten Petyr, only the idea of giving in. He too once believed in songs and stories, in the idea of having something better than the emotional morass he has dwelled in since his rejection by Catelyn and duel with Brandon Stark. Somewhere in him, young Petyr maybe be fighting to get out, and wants to save Sansa (from himself).

There is perhaps something I call “The Sansa Effect”. Sansa is maybe more than charming, courteous, and beautiful. Maybe she is blessed - blessed with an ability to influence the emotional path of others, to break through their armour, all their rage and spite and coldness. She is a catalyst that transforms the tormented into better versions of themselves. The Hound was a man driven by deep-seated hatred, and bitterly served evil masters while being numb to his own conscience. After interaction with Sansa, he finally confronted his own terrible acts and dark desires, and it broke his loyalty to the evil masters he served. Tyrion was a man who subsumed his own sense of justice and honour for the sake of living up to the monstrous family he belonged to. His interactions with Sansa made him try to act like a the more noble man he had the potential to be, and brought the conflict between him and the rest of his family to a head. A monster he might be, but he would not let them harm Sansa as they (and he) harmed Tysha. Lancel Lannister received kindness from Sansa, despite having treated her poorly himself. Her compassion towards him may have helped him go from arrogance to remorse to piety. Dontos Hollard was a ruin of a man, a drunkard without a hope of doing anything but embarrassing himself, but Sansa saved his life and in a way enabled him to be a knight again. Even remotely, Sansa is central to Brienne becoming a quest knight and Jaime grudgingly trying to salvage his lost honour.

Perhaps not everyone is redeemable, and for some her gentle nature brings out the worst in them (Joffrey, Cersei). Yet we do not know what run's through Littlefinger's mind any more than we know the Hound's. Perhaps he gets a redemption arc too. Maybe not that much, but perhaps through Sansa we'll see more of Petyr emerge, from behind the masks of Littlefinger and Lord Baelish.

Though I do agree that Sansa has a redemptive effect on many people, I don't see it happening with Baelish mostly because of what I bolded above - the idealistic, chivalrous, charming Petyr died on the Trident, and was buried when Catelyn would not go to see him as he was convalescing, with the final nail in the coffin being when Cat then married Ned Stark, even after she had an out, when Brandon died.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Pod, what a great and very thorough analysis! You captured Petyr's influence on Sansa in every angle. Here's a few things that I wanted to comment on:

This is the key to his feelings for Sansa and also his weak point in regards to how he deals with her. As soon as he caught sight of her in King's Landing, any thought of trying to win Cat back after getting rid of Ned went out the window. I think that's one of the reasons we don't see him react to Cat's death at the Red Wedding, because he finally gave her up once Sansa came into the picture. However, as others have noted, Sansa is only superficially, in terms of her looks, like Cat, but is much more like Ned, her real father in personality and character. While you mention that Petyr has to overcome certain 'snags" to win her over, I think this is the biggest one and the one he underestimates the most because he views her as Cat 2.0 who would not feel as tied to Winterfell or the North, as she was from the Riverlands.

Agreed, and similar to what I said above about the superficiality of his view of Sansa as Cat, I think this is the other big snag here because he is missing out on some key changes in Sansa's viewpoint about her notions of chivalry, romanticism and the good guy slaying the "monster". He made this assessment of her back in AGOT before her whole life was destroyed and I think he doesn't recognize that her views are not exactly the same by Feast as they were then. Yes, she still believes in a chivalric code, but her ideas of who "fits" the roles of knight and monster has changed significantly. He has tried to portray himself in her mind as her savior and knight, as you pointed out, but she's also seen things from him which are giving her the underlying suspicion that he is more of a "monster" than saviour.

Though I do agree that Sansa has a redemptive effect on many people, I don't see it happening with Baelish mostly because of what I bolded above - the idealistic, chivalrous, charming Petyr died on the Trident, and was buried when Catelyn would not go to see him as he was convalescing, with the final nail in the coffin being when Cat then married Ned Stark, even after she had an out, when Brandon died.

Pod, great and terrific analysis on LF! I have lots to say and will post later, but I just wanted to comment on some things Elba brought up and that I've bolded.

Lots of us have noted in the P2P series that while Sansa looks like Catelyn, she is in character far more like Ned. (And, I will add, like Jon Snow, ironically since they were the least close siblings in canon.) LF sees the superficial resemblance to Cat, and he also sees, I think, a younger Catelyn whom he can mold and groom and who will be more pliant, more his, than the original Catelyn. (Added bonus: no resentful stepkids! If Petyr really did put the moves on Catelyn after Ned died, I am sure he'd get a frosty reception from the Stark children.)

Much has been made of Sansa having to learn that appearances do not mirror reality and that people are not who they appear to be on the surface. This seems to be lost on the ostensibly sophisticated, cynical Petyr Baelish when he looks at Sansa. It never occurs to him that Sansa is more Ned's daughter than Catelyn's under the skin - with considerably more worldly wisdom and wariness added on. Ned trusted Littlefinger; the old Sansa might have but the AFFC Sansa doesn't.

LF has also completely missed how much Sansa's attitude towards romantic heroes and dashing knights has changed. Three words: Harry the Heir. LF is dangling Harry as a prize for Sansa - "Here is this handsome, dashing, gallant Young Falcon who will marry you and take back the North for you!" The GoT Sansa might have swallowed this, the CoK/SoS Sansa might have to an extent (with the caveat that she will try to make it work no matter what) but I see the AFFC Sansa as saying to herself, "I don't know if I"m buying what LF is selling." She doesn't believe in gallant knights anymore. LF has completely and utterly failed to understand that. Sansa's final chapter in AFFC ended before her reaction to "Marry Harry and inherit the Vale and take back the North" was given, but I am betting that her true reaction (no matter what she shows to LF on the surface) is not that enthusiastic. Not to mention that LF has outright told Sansa that he lies to people and tells them what they want to hear. I think she might leap to the obvious conclusion here...

Likewise Petyr's all but stated that "Your little cousin is going to die so you and Harry will get the Vale!" We've seen how Ned balked at killing children and likewise I can't see Sansa wanting to climb to be Lady of the Eyrie over her cousin's dead body, annoying as Sweetrobin can be sometimes. Besides, there's a selfish reason for her to want SR alive: One less claim for her. She's already sick to the death of being shark chum in the marriage waters of Westeros. And that's another thing Petyr has missed seeing. He thinks she wants a good marriage. By AFFC Sansa is saying "I want love or nothing at all." (And at least Willas Tyrell didn't have two bastard children at 17! If this is true, Harry is out-Roberting Robert Baratheon. I don't think Sansa would want to marry someone like him.)

[Lyanna Stark]

Likewise Petyr's all but stated that "Your little cousin is going to die so you and Harry will get the Vale!" We've seen how Ned balked at killing children and likewise I can't see Sansa wanting to climb to be Lady of the Eyrie over her cousin's dead body, annoying as Sweetrobin can be sometimes. Besides, there's a selfish reason for her to want SR alive: One less claim for her. She's already sick to the death of being shark chum in the marriage waters of Westeros. And that's another thing Petyr has missed seeing. He thinks she wants a good marriage. By AFFC Sansa is saying "I want love or nothing at all." (And at least Willas Tyrell didn't have two bastard children at 17! If this is true, Harry is out-Roberting Robert Baratheon. I don't think Sansa would want to marry someone like him.)

I just wanted to point out how I love the expression "out-Roberting Robert Baratheon". :lol:

It really is what Harry has seemed to do though, and that is not a positive thing. The fact that he has done so brings to mind Lyanna Stark's words about Robert "Love is sweet, dear Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature". Implicitly, it means that even love cannot change what a person is. I don't think Sansa Stark as of AFFC can find it in her to love someone like Harry the Heir. Nor someone like Littlefinger, if she understands even a fraction of his crimes. Harry comes across as a knight of summer, hedonistic and carefree, and that may have been something AGOT Sansa could have lived with, but not AFFC Sansa, I think. She's been through way too much to accept the vices of a Robert Baratheon 2.0.

[Elba the Intoner]

I just wanted to point out how I love the expression "out-Roberting Robert Baratheon". :lol:

It really is what Harry has seemed to do though, and that is not a positive thing. The fact that he has done so brings to mind Lyanna Stark's words about Robert "Love is sweet, dear Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature". Implicitly, it means that even love cannot change what a person is. I don't think Sansa Stark as of AFFC can find it in her to love someone like Harry the Heir. Nor someone like Littlefinger, if she understands even a fraction of his crimes. Harry comes across as a knight of summer, hedonistic and carefree, and that may have been something AGOT Sansa could have lived with, but not AFFC Sansa, I think. She's been through way too much to accept the vices of a Robert Baratheon 2.0.

Me too - "out-Roberting Robert Baratheon"!! :laugh: Good one KRBD.

Also, Pod I love some of your captions too like PETYR AND THE WOLF, FALL AS AN ANGEL, RISE AS A DEVIL - LUCIFINGER, LORD BAELZEBUB, and the NOT SO UNFAIR UNLADY. :lol:

Anyway, to expand on what Lyanna said above, if you pay attention to how Petyr describes Harry to Sansa, he has dimples, sandy blond locks, gallant, etc. I don't have the book in front of me atm to get the specific description, but what struck me is that he physically seems like a Loras twin. Sansa is so over that but Petyr still thinks that's what she wants.

[SorrowfulWoman]

Just want to chime in to say how much I am enjoying this discussion. On my 1st read through of ASOIAF, I very much disliked Sansa. On subsequent read throughs, I have come to appreciate the subtlety and nuance her character develops by AFFC. While I still hold my breath for Arya's next move, I now find myself doing so for the Sansa/Alayne storyline.

As to the question of why Petyr hasn't forced himself upon her: I think he wants her to want him (then he wins the Petyr/Cat long game). If Sansa can figure that out, she can then move his piece around the board, so to speak. Sansa is his weak spot and like other posters suggested, he understimates her, hopefully to his future disadvantage.

[Pod The Impaler]

I also think that because of her likability, she'll have no trouble finding allies. Back to Littlefinger, I doubt that many people in the Vale are happy with him. Maybe they're not doing anything now but if they find out who Sansa is, I'm sure they'll do something to help her. In fact, she may even reach out to some of them when she figures out how horrible Littlefinger really is.

Well, it is probably no coincidence that the one lord in the Vale who nearly knew her is also the one that seems to oppose Lord Baelish the most earnestly: Bronze Yohn Royce. I think somewhere in the Wiki I recall seeing a past connection between the houses of Stark and Royce, aside from the fact Eddard was fostered in the Vale and that Yohn visited Winterfell. The Royces also prdate House Arryn and have the blood of the First Men.

Has anyone ever suggested that LF's duel with Brandon was a kind of scheme rather than an act by a helpless boy crazed with love?

Rather than a breaking point- where LF realized that "life was not a song"-- I was wondering if the duel was something more purposeful on LF's part. Knowing he wasn't going to be elevated through status alone, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility he staged this farce. I think there's a chance he banked on Cat's goodness and Brandon's "Stark honor" to not harm him mortally.

I would doubt it. If he was that clever, I think he'd think it too risky to get into a sword fight. Sword fights are too dangerous, and to know if Brandon would not kill him, he'd have to be dead certain that Brandon would keep his word and be so good with a sword he could wound someone at some set level he can control perfectly. Plus, let's not forget, even a small cut can infect and kill someone. It is known. If all he wanted was to be wounded to gain sympathy, why not a fistfight instead ? Littlefinger is a master schemer, but I think for young Petyr, this would be too much to ask for.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Well, it is probably no coincidence that the one lord in the Vale who nearly knew her is also the one that seems to oppose Lord Baelish the most earnestly: Bronze Yohn Royce. I think somewhere in the Wiki I recall seeing a past connection between the houses of Stark and Royce, aside from the fact Eddard was fostered in the Vale and that Yohn visited Winterfell. The Royces also predate House Arryn and have the blood of the First Men.

Yes, definitely. I think someone mentioned in a previous thread that Bronze Yohn might have-or might eventually- recognize Sansa. I think that if he did he would definitely help her take down Littlefinger.

[Elba the Intoner]

Welcome Sorrowful Woman, not only to this thread but to the Forum!! It's great that you chose this thread to make your first post. You won't be disappointed by the discussions going on here.

[brashcandy]

As to the question of why Petyr hasn't forced himself upon her: I think he wants her to want him (then he wins the Petyr/Cat long game). If Sansa can figure that out, she can then move his piece around the board, so to speak. Sansa is his weak spot and like other posters suggested, he understimates her, hopefully to his future disadvantage.

Welcome to the thread SW :) Yeah, rape isn't Petyr Baelish's style, but unlike Sandor Clegane, it's not evidence of some deep down honour code; he wants Sansa to want him to win the Petyr/Cat game, but he's also making sure to stack the decks in his favour.

Harry comes across as a knight of summer, hedonistic and carefree, and that may have been something AGOT Sansa could have lived with, but not AFFC Sansa, I think. She's been through way too much to accept the vices of a Robert Baratheon 2.0.

All true, but isn't LF banking on Sansa ultimately not wanting Harry? As you've noted in the past, he ostensibly sells her on the marriage whilst snidely undermining Harry at the same time. So even though he may figure that Sansa might be temporarily enthralled, he too wants her to reject HtH eventually. So, what hand can Sansa play here? She has her own personal reasons for not wanting to be married again, and if she's picking up LF's subtext, has additional reasons to be wary of this type. What move does she make if HtH does become a reality?

[Pod The Impaler]

Good job explaining how she romanticizes those "rescuers" but it's not so straightforward when it comes to Willas Tyrell I would argue. Yes, she does talk about the puppies on the lap and sailing down the Mander, but by this time, we're witnessing a stronger Sansa too, a bit more realistic and resolved to actively make her relationship with Willas work, not simply taking for granted that it will happen.

Well, it is a fantasy too, in a way. Sansa has never met Willas. For all she knows he could be an asshole, or just cold. The Tyrells said he was sweet, but they could be as biased about him as the Lannisters about Joffrey. When I say she idealizes him, it is because she is buying into the idea without evidence to back it up. Though, yes, by that time she was a a bit wiser.

I think Sandor is the notable exception here. He wants her to wise up about the threats around her certainly, and does espouse his cynical views, but ultimately if there's one person who acted with nothing to gain from Sansa, it would have to be him. Which of course makes him the direct antithesis to everything LF represents.

When she's praying in the chapter towards the end of ACOK we see that does appreciate them as persons who helped her, even though she remains aware of each man's limitations. I think the important difference here between the two men is that she honestly got to know one of them, and Sandor eventually makes a firm break with the Lannisters. When she is forced into her marriage with Tyrion, he becomes yet another person who wants to use her for her claim and she resents the lies he told her.

At first, though, Sandor was not like that. Really up to his break with the Lannisters, he still had some desires to get what he wanted from her. Part of that was a notion to take more than just a song from her (we all know the symbolism there). Part was also that The Hound was actually being somewhat insulting and hurtful in how he spoke to Sansa, barking his contempt at her for his own amusement, not just to teach her. (Indeed, the common English phrase about "teaching someone a lesson" has a second meaning, something socially retaliatory.) His feelings do turn though, up until the point where he is maybe more genuine towards her and protecting her from the Lannisters he serves. Still, you can tell by the guilt he later expresses to Arya that his motives towards Sansa were not all nice ones.

He wants Sansa to come to him, and indeed it seems he's either consciously or unconsciously recreating the scene of his humiliation in the Vale, except that now he thinks he has a sure chance of winning.

And what important snags these are! :) LF can appreciate them in so much as he needs in order to undermine and exploit their holds on Sansa, but does he understand the true depth and meaning of these qualities? It’s comparable to his perception of Winterfell as a cold harsh place, when in reality, as Sansa notes, it was always warm and comfortable.

I did consider this too, as a possible outcome. If / when Sansa rejects Lord Baelish, it means he fails all over again. He is setting himself for potential disappointment (heartbreak ?). He has done the best he could to stack the deck in his favour, but the flaw is that maybe he is making himself someone that impress would impress young Catelyn (and her father Hoster Tully), or maybe early (pre-captivity) Sansa, but the new Sansa may want entirely different things in a man. The brutal irony here is that Sansa might have fallen for young Petyr, a sincere but naive boy whom Lord Baelish can never be again. By becoming Littlefinger, he may have doomed Petyr's chances with someone like Sansa. (If that makes sense ?)

Also, the cold/warm symbolism there is about what sort of life he thought (or feared) Catelyn was living out. It was a sort of fiction Petyr made up in his head - in his mind, the woman he loved was (in the name of family, duty and honour) carried off to some frozen northern hell - "cold". For Sansa though, it is "warm" - a home, a caring family, parents who loved each other and made a good life together.

[Pod The Impaler]

Also I should reiterate (because some responders brought it up): I did mention earlier that the question of whether Sansa takes after her mother or father more is up for debate. In that debate, I tend to fall on the "more like her mother" side, for more than just her looks - but with a few clear caveats.

[Mahaut]

Excellent post Pod!

Enter Petyr Baelish. He meets Sansa at the tourney, and the first thing he sees in her is the young Tully image of her mother. He had not seen Catelyn from the day he fought his duel with Brandon Stark to the day he met her in King's Landing. He probably always had the young maid image of Catelyn in his head, and though Catelyn no longer looked the part, Sansa did. The thing that was different now was him - no longer a foolish smitten boy, but a man - a Lord, sharpened by his experiences. No doubt he had watched Sansa for a time before approaching, and seen her in awe of the spectacle, cooing over the brave and handsome young knights like Loras, but like a Lord's daughter, steel enough to look upon Ser Hugh's dying without running away or retching. (And at the same time, Catelyn was no longer the same girl he once fell for.) You can imagine the Sansa fixation begin, where suddenly Catelyn was no longer the only possibility.

I really like this idea of Sansa replacing Catelyn because the latter doesn't look the part any longer. It really emphasizes Littlefinger's wish to replay the story (even if the actors are a bit different) but this time, he's the ultimate winner. I see Littlefinger like some kind of producer directing actresses so that they fit the part he gave them in order for him to live his sick fantasy. I think he doesn't care about what the actress (here Sansa) thinks, he just wants her to fulfil the role he gave her.

ETA: Harry is out-Roberting Robert Baratheon :lmao: , great one KittensRuleBeetsDrool

[brashcandy]

At first, though, Sandor was not like that. Really up to his break with the Lannisters, he still had some desires to get what he wanted from her. Part of that was a notion to take more than just a song from her (we all know the symbolism there). Part was also that The Hound was actually being somewhat insulting and hurtful in how he spoke to Sansa, barking his contempt at her for his own amusement, not just to teach her. (Indeed, the common English phrase about "teaching someone a lesson" has a second meaning, something socially retaliatory.) His feelings do turn though, up until the point where he is maybe more genuine towards her and protecting her from the Lannisters he serves. Still, you can tell by the guilt he later expresses to Arya that his motives towards Sansa were not all nice ones.

I think it's true that Sandor entertained his own fantasies about getting something from Sansa, particularly when drunk, but thinking about something and speaking roughly to someone doesn't equate to actually manipulating that person in order to get your way with them. He tells her he wants a song, but until the night of the Blackwater, with its other terrible extenuating circumstances, he's not prepared to take that song by force. So I do think that he remains the one person who didn't act for selfish reasons.

I did consider this too, as a possible outcome. If / when Sansa rejects Lord Baelish, it means he fails all over again. He is setting himself for potential disappointment (heartbreak ?). He has done the best he could to stack the deck in his favour, but the flaw is that maybe he is making himself someone that impress would impress young Catelyn (and her father Hoster Tully), or maybe early (pre-captivity) Sansa, but the new Sansa may want entirely different things in a man. The brutal irony here is that Sansa might have fallen for young Petyr, a sincere but naive boy whom Lord Baelish can never be again. By becoming Littlefinger, he may have doomed Petyr's chances with someone like Sansa. (If that makes sense ?)

Salient point, and this is where Lothor Brune comes in. How much of Sansa's appreciation for him as a suitable mate for Mya isn't actually coloured by his own similarity to Sandor Clegane - honest, loyal, hardworking and simple? It would be perfect irony if Petyr orchestrated his own failure by having a man who fits the image of what Sansa/Alayne now wants instead of the dashing knight and the clever Lord Protector.

Also, the cold/warm symbolism there is about what sort of life he thought (or feared) Catelyn was living out. It was a sort of fiction Petyr made up in his head - in his mind, the woman he loved was (in the name of family, duty and honour) carried off to some frozen northern hell - "cold". For Sansa though, it is "warm" - a home, a caring family, parents who loved each other and made a good life together.

Yes. I think the symbolism here underscores the importance of the people within the marriage and not the external conditions. Is this something Petyr can ever understand?

[Pod The Impaler]

Salient point, and this is where Lothor Brune comes in. How much of Sansa's appreciation for him as a suitable mate for Mya isn't actually coloured by his own similarity to Sandor Clegane - honest, loyal, hardworking and simple? It would be perfect irony if Petyr orchestrated his own failure by having a man who fits the image of what Sansa/Alayne now wants instead of the dashing knight and the clever Lord Protector.

- - - - -

Yes. I think the symbolism here underscores the importance of the people within the marriage and not the external conditions. Is this something Petyr can ever understand?

Well, Brune being in his service is interesting, but Ser Shadrich is a great wildcard too.

[Milady of York]

That was an impressive presentation on Littlefinger's influence on Sansa.

I'd like to make some comments on the questions about Why not just rape Sansa? Why would a seemingly sociopathic man not simply take by force what he so obviously wants? What stops him?

The question is already partially answered: he has a sociopathic personality. I can tell he’s not the type of aggressive (violent) sociopath but a passive one. By definition, a sociopath has a weak and unelaborated conscience and an undeveloped sense of empathy, which precludes him from feeling love or caring if his is a requited one. And, of all the men that have been around Sansa, he’s the one whose behaviour most frighteningly fits in the psychological profile for a sexual abuser, specifically of the type psychologists call groomers. A groomer prefers to seduce his victim, not force her. It’s a sort of game for them, a perverse game to satisfy their own desires and fantasies regardless of what the female wants or feels. Their aim is never to be wanted or loved back but to achieve the goal of satisfying these desires and fantasies.

Why doesn’t a groomer rape in a straightforward fashion? Because rape in the manner of a grabber –employing violence– has no guarantee of success, the victim could resist, scream, someone could intervene, etc., a lot of factors that could interrupt the action. Because of that, a groomer plans his actions to perpetrate the offence successfully; success is fundamental given that his motivations go beyond merely lust. They are very patient; they can wait for many months.

Littlefinger’s modus operandi shows all the alarm signs a clinician is trained to detect. A summary of the grooming stages would look like this:

Spots the girl he desires––Befriends her––Makes himself very necessary to her or the family/friend closest to her––Begins the first sexual advances, usually seemingly affectionate touching–– isolates little by little, to the point where he can be alone with her in private––Advances to more bold sexual moves, like kissing, and then caressing her privates. Whatever he does, these moves are predominantly nonviolent and preferably in private settings, in an effort to avoid detection––Condition the girl through rewards, overt or veiled threats, or misrepresenting the moral validity of what he does to her––This pay/punish/demand for the sexual satisfaction becomes a routine––…until the abuser decides he wants more, that is: sexual intercourse. Normally, it’s not done violently, because by then the girl is too caught up in his web of fear, guilt, shame, low self-esteem and terror of punishments to resist actively, yet it can happen that she does resist.

The Mockingbird has gone through all these stages since he first met Sansa when she was eleven, and the manner he approached her and his gestures made her uncomfortable. He made himself necessary to her father, her only protector in King’s Landing, and betrayed him. After he’d done all he could to leave her without the ones who’d have protected her, he asked for her hand in marriage then, despite being perfectly aware that her mother–the woman he supposedly had loved for years, whom he had dishonoured by bragging about taking her maidenhead–was still alive, and that she was not yet flowered; and I doubt he would’ve waited for her to grow a little to start his unwanted seduction process, considering this line in AGOT:

she could feel Littlefinger staring. Something about the way the small man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on. Goose bumps pimpled her skin.

Examining the way he is acting at the Vale, getting bolder and using coercion to erase any resistance or lack of cooperation, I'd say there's a high chance of a rape attempt, especially if or when he learns about what Sansa feels for another. Abusers cannot even stand the thought of sharing with another a portion of their victim’s affections, even if not romantic in nature (another reason he tries to wipe out any emotional connection Sansa may have had in the past). He doesn't only kiss her, he gropes her and based on what is known of abusers, I can guess that he also tries to get near her privates; although she doesn't mention it, when he sits her onto his lap, where do you think he places his manly parts? Nearest to her privates, most probably. We cannot downplay her discomfort in certain situations where he’s touching her, which considering that Sansa is a very internal young girl in whose chapters what isn’t said matters a lot, is a huge red flag indicating there's more that Littlefinger does and she doesn't mention (his hands could go around her waist, hips, breasts or back when he kisses her). We do have three lines where he’s touching her in a revealing way in AFFC:

Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. “I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling.”

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. “The dwarf wed Ned Stark’s daughter, not mine.

He put two fingers on her left breast. “Even here. In your heart. Can you do that? Can you be my daughter in your heart?”

Touching the mouth and the breasts, kisses on the wrist, caressing her hand, pulling her onto his lap, playing with a lock of her hair, kissing her for a long time while holding her face with both hands… all of which are unwanted, he ignores her uneasiness, and even commands her to do better next time after she’s given him that dutiful kiss. It’s highly doubtful that he will be content with that, groomers don’t.

Regarding Sansa falling in love with Littlefinger... The girl falling for a groomer would be a grave case of Stockholm syndrome. But there's little chance of that happening with this Sansa, and time isn’t exactly on his side, the possibility of her being discovered increases as weeks go by, and above all because of the “hidden dagger” that goes by the name of Sandor Clegane. Littlefinger came too late to the party and missed the formation of this bond, as he’s missing the ones she’s forming under his very own nose with new people she’s met; her memories of her direwolf replacement aren't only her last ties to her former identity as a Stark but also a mental protection against the possibility of ever loving Littlefinger, strong because he doesn’t even suspect what she feels and dreams and thinks about; thus he’s unable to move a finger against something he ignores.