Divorce in the kingdoms

[Djinn]

How old were Tyrion and Tysha when it happpenned? If they were under 16(majority age) then consent from head of the family would be required, no? Besides, there are no records of marriages in Westeros, so if the witnesses were dead(as pigs often end up) and the septon drunk, a case could be made that the marriage isn't valid in the first place. If it were, wouldn't Tywin resort to the letal divorce option? In fact, without records or witnesses, how can the validity of a marriage be proven in Westeros?

[Mikkel]

How old were Tyrion and Tysha when it happpenned? If they were under 16(majority age) then consent from head of the family would be required, no? Besides, there are no records of marriages in Westeros, so if the witnesses were dead(as pigs often end up) and the septon drunk, a case could be made that the marriage isn't valid in the first place. If it were, wouldn't Tywin resort to the letal divorce option? In fact, without records or witnesses, how can the validity of a marriage be proven in Westeros?

I don't remember their exact ages, but they were both under 16, that's for sure.

[Woman of War]

Both were thirteen.

The only way that the Tyrion/Tysha marriage could still be valid is if Tyrion and Tysha agree to declare themselves still married, after all they are direct witnesses hard to prove wrong. In that case, they expressly choose to be wife and husband, they could turn any later marriage of either Tyrion or Tysha invalid for reason of bigamy.

Only I do not believe in a happy ever after for these star crossed lovers. Even if they ever met they would be totally different persons from the two cute kids they were, it would be a completely new relationship of two very damaged different persons, not a takeup.

[Fire Eater]

Well, I am no lawyer, and catholic church law is alien to me. But an annullment means that "the marriage never happened", meaning the persons concerned have never been married before the law of the church and are free to marry again after catholic ideas, whereas a divorce is impossible in Catholizism as in Westeros.

A marriage obviously can be annulled even if the two people had sex since Tyrion and Tysha had but maybe only with the reason that it was invalid from the beginning: both were minors and there was no parental consent.

In civil law of our times, at least im my country, a marriage can only be annulled if it was invalid from the beginning: one person was forced or too young or simply bigamy - or that infamous intrusion into privacy when authorities claim that a marriage has been made for immigration reasons only.

This all in our times has no influence on the " legitimacy" of children since, at least in my country, there is no legal difference between children within or without a marriage concerning the financial or legal responsibility of parents.

But after catholic law children from an annulled marriage would be "illegitimate" since the marriage might be seen as always nonexistent, if children in Westeros made before the annullment are legitimate heirs or not I would not know. But in Tyrion's and Tysha's case this would be hard to prove since Tysha was probably raped in the same menstrual cycle as she had made love with Tyrion.

Apart from that it is highly unlikely that a thirteen year old girl can bring a pregnancy to term after a rape like that. Tysha might have been seriously ill from infections and suffer some damages of the urogenital tract (correct English??).

I still have the crackpot theory that Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage will be annulled by someone somehow but that in the end they may choose to turn the annullment invalid by marrying again or by having sex and thus validitating the marriage, for political reasons, for feeling "at home" with each other or for outright liking each other, I would not know but there is a certain plot logic to take up their relationship again. Maybe not as endgame because one or both may die but as rounded story arc. I would like that only if Sansa gets truly emotionally mature until then - and Tyrion too.

I think that Tyrion finding Tysha and having a "happy ending" this way would be too sweet.

I agree with what you said.

In medieval Europe, before the Reformation, the Roman Catholic Church was pretty much the only church in Western Europe. Divorce wasn't practiced and virtually taboo. This also has to do with the majority of the marriages to be arranged, and in an honor culture, wedding vows were oaths and oath-breaking was frowned upon. Marriages were used to build political alliances, and divorce could undo that alliance.

The closest thing to divorce was annulment.

[Tony Soprano]

Divorce?

Where the hell am I supposed to find a septon? Just go all Victarion Greyjoy on her ass.

That was a joke.

:leaving:

[Mary Goode]

I know this is late, but since I AM a Catholic, I think I can explain the grounds for annulment/stopping a marriage dead in its tracks:

1) Consanguinuity (Church allows marriages from 2nd cousin onward, but no further; in medieval and Early Modern Times interestingly this included the offspring of a godparent.)

2) If you took your vows in bad faith, with no intention to follow through on them, as evinced by egregious behavior (this happened with my grandparents, unfortunately)

3) Non-consummation (this is archaic and annulment is rarely sought in the way it was in the past, but generally today it is sought if your partner turns out to be gay and literally CAN'T fulfill his promise to love you romantically.)

4) You are already someone that has taken vows to be a priest or nun (big big no no.)

5) You are already married to someone else. If in the case you are already married, the second wedding is invalid and you are in BIG BIG BIG trouble with God and the bishop.

6) Coercion (this was waved a lot in the Renaissance and Middle Ages, as pretty much you had to literally be kidnapped in order for it to apply, very important to note since GoF derives a lot from that era)

7) If one party is Catholic but the other is not and the marriage was performed by a non-Catholic celebrant (marriage is invalid)

8) If one or both parties are too young. In the Middle Ages and Renaissance, the church permitted marriage for girls as young as 12 and boys as young as 14. Today, 15 is more typical for the lowest age, and even then your average parish priest is going to knock on your parent's door, probably dragging you by the ear like a naughty child: "Did you know your daughter is trying to run away with a 21 year old man?!! What is wrong with you people?!"

9) No witness

You have to present your case to the bishop who then sets the wheels in motion for the tribunal to review the case. Annulments are trickier to get than in a civil court these days as the Church frowns upon divorce and in the Medieval and Renaissance period, for the upper classes, only the pope could grant one (which they almost NEVER did.) For Sansa, it is going to be trickier for her to divorce Tyrion than you'd think because unfortunately she can't prove her husband is dead, and she might not be able to prove she is a virgin especially if the Lannisters know Tyrion went into her bedchamber and slept in the same bed with her (not to mention Baelish is skulking around in the background, looking at her like she's Lolita to his Humbert Humbert: I think in the next book he may try to do more than kiss her.) If my memory serves, the person who knew the most about the situation in that bedchamber was Tywin, and he is dead.

As for Tysha and Tyrion, I will bet dollars to donuts that Tywin got rid of that girl ages ago by getting the High Septon to annul it on the grounds that it did not have a witness , Tyrion was too young to contract it, not to mention that Tywin could easily lean on the Septon to get him to do what he wanted (like branding her a whore.) The current Septon is not as movable.

[The Red Pope]

Could the fact that Tyrion has gone into exile, combined with his reluctance to bed her be seen as not intending to keep to the marriage vows?

Could a marriage be ended if the man ran away or disappeared?

[Mary Goode]

Could the fact that Tyrion has gone into exile, combined with his reluctance to bed her be seen as not intending to keep to the marriage vows?

Could a marriage be ended if the man ran away or disappeared?

Tyrion has not been gone all that long, if I read the story right: at most, he has been gone a year. Further, Cersei, the Queen, still thinks he is alive or else she would not be driving herself nuts thinking he is still in Westeros (in the next book she may think he was the one who shot her uncle and not Varys.) To a Septon/priest, there is still the reasonable belief that he may still be alive, plus, since it looks like Tyrion is going to join forces with Daenarys, it would be almost guaranteed that someone back in Westeros will eventually get wind of where Tyrion skulked off to, including the Septons. And BTW, in the Catholic Church if the vows say "til death do us part," they really, really really are not kidding: the goal of mosts priests is to keep a marriage together once it has been performed unless it is totally unsalvageable; marriage is a sacrament that only God can end. And I am not just talking irreconcilable differences, oh no, basically you have to hate each other so much that the sight of your partner makes you sick.

Desertion otherwise can be a cause of annulment, but there has to be reasonable doubt that the person who has run off is ever coming back. It would have to be more than a year that the person is gone, as in, disappeared and presumed dead or disappeared so long ago that there is no sin in granting an dispensation for a spouse to be freed from his or her marriage vows.

As for a priest interpreting that Tyrion's reluctance to bed her and his going into exile is consummate with not having any intention to keep his marriage vows, I would actually say no. My own grandparents got an annulment on the grounds of my grandfather's making vows in bad faith. To be explain, my grandfather, ermm, not to get too personal, was very,very, very unfaithful and in fact he lied to my grandmother right before they were married: he was engaged to another girl at the same time he was engaged to her. It was pretty clear he had no intention of keeping his promise to be faithful to her forsaking all others, he lied to the Church, my grandmother, his whole family, and God when he pledged himself to her.

With Tyrion, it is complex. In the Middle Ages, non-consummation could be grounds for an annulment in the Catholic Church, and for females, being barren was also grounds for annulment (the last is still on the books, but it is seldom used since nowadays there is such thing as adoption.) If we presume that the Seven=Catholic Church, on the other hand, non-consummation might be trickier to prove with Sansa than one would think. The only Lannister that knew for sure that, to borrow from William Shakespeare, Sansa and Tyrion were not making the beast with two backs, was Tywin. He is dead. The only other people that might know in general were Shae (being the one Tyrion WAS making the beast with two backs with) and the servants (people who had to change the bedsheets.) One of these is dead and the others are smallfolk, and they tend not to mix in the same circles as the High Septon, so what they say could be dismissed as hearsay.

OTT, paradoxically and very weirdly, Tyrion jumping into bed stark naked with her that one time could be interpreted as an attempt to consummate the marriage and thus proof of intent to keep the marriage vows. His decision not to do it could be argued to show concern for her well being and trying to be a GOOD husband, especially since Sansa is a fair amount younger than Tyrion: among the upper classes in the Middle Ages it was not uncommon for a husband to wait for his wife to get comfortable with the idea of sex before trying to bed her (or at least this was true of the good husbands: Edward I of England was about fifteen when he married his Eleanor, who was only ten. He waited about a year for her and after that attempt it was another ten years before they tried to have any more children, and by all accounts the man was crazy about her. ) The only problem is that Tyrion is not around to argue his case, so if I were Littlefinger, I would watch out before trying to marry her off to Harry the Heir: he might be getting in for more than he bargained for (he may dumbly think that Tyrion is dead, marry her off to Harry, and have his scheme blow up in his face if Tyrion comes back to Westeros: "Excuse me, Septon, but as you can see, I am very much alive and was merely exiled, and Baelish was mistaken...." I could be wrong about this scenario, but it could happen...

[The Red Pope]

Wow, you really put effort into your answers.

Anyway, from what you've said I can see a decent chance for an annulment. Firstly, he just wouldn't be "Littlefinger" if he hadn't already tracked down Tyrion's servants and prepared them to be used as witnesses. Secondly, he controls the Vale, the most Andal kingdom of all seven, it's lords will be well respected among the septons and their support for Sansa will add credibility. Thirdly LF is likely the richest man in Westeros, he could make some donations to show good faith, or even close his brothels. The High Sparrow might seem a bit Stannis like but he does "bend" when it serves his cause and he currently lacks funds, but most of all recognition from the nobility.

And then if word spreads of Tyrion's whereabouts it won't be long before his lady companion is reported. Or if he keeps avoiding her, how long will "the Imp" stay faithful in Mereen, now the brothel capitol of the world? This will off course also be reported.

If I were Littlefinger this is what I would use to present Sansa's case to the High Sparrow.Off course sucess is not guaranteed, but the odds are pretty good at least in my view.

[mcb]

Hm...I thought a consummation would supersede this.

Ha. But if the marriage is declared invalid, then they didn't consummate... they just fucked.

BTW, Henry VIII had been married to Catherine of Aragon for quarter century, had had a child with her and still managed to have the marriage annulled. It's all a matter of political clout.

Tywin bullied everyone into acting as if the marrriage had never happened. He could do that because it wasn' t widely known the marriage had take place, but there was no legal recourse for a divorce or annulment.

I don't believe Tywin would have left a loose end like this. He either had the marriage annulled, or had Tysha killed, one or the other.

[TheGreyKraken]

Divorce?

Where the hell am I supposed to find a septon? Just go all Victarion Greyjoy on her ass.

That was a joke.

:leaving:

Well said! :drunk:

[Ser Lepus]

Tyrion neither was legally divorced nor had his marriage annulled. Tywin said that he was never married, and since the marriage was secret and the few who know are Tywin's minions and family, to the eyes of the people of Westeros Tysha just never existed.

That said, I think somebody as powerful as Tywin could have had the marriage easily annulled, since Tyrion was a minor who married without parental consent, the priest was drunk, nobody saw them consummate the marriage...etc. But Tywin didn't want anybody to know about the issue, so he choose to dispose of Tysha and hide that Tyrion had ever been married.

If somebody could prove that Tyrion married Tysha and never got their marriage annulled,Sansa and Tyrion's marriage would be void.

About the northen lords, i don't know who could annul a marriage. Maybe the king, or the Lord of the North.

[mcb]

Tyrion neither was legally divorced nor had his marriage annulled. Tywin said that he was never married, and since the marriage was secret and the few who know are Tywin's minions and family, to the eyes of the people of Westeros Tysha just never existed.

That said, I think somebody as powerful as Tywin could have had the marriage easily annulled, since Tyrion was a minor who married without consent, the priest was drunk, nobody saw them consummate the marriage...etc. But Tywin didn't want anybody to know about the issue, so he choose to dispose of Tysha and hide that Tyrion had ever been married.

Well, then he got her killed. Just to avoid a scenario described below:

If somebody could prove that Tyrion married Tysha and never got their marriage annulled,Sansa and Tyrion's marriage would be void.

[TheSpottedCat]

I don't remember the part where Tyrion says Tywin took care of it, but even if Tyrion thinks so, it might simply be that Tywin did absolutely nothing and just told Tyrion that he had dissolved the marriage. For one, the marriage happened with no human witnesses, the septon was drunk, so he might not even remember, or care, Tyrion thinks his wife is a whore and that the marriage was dissolved, Tysha has been humiliated and traumatized beyond repair and sent on her way, nobody really knows anything about it, so why do anything at all. Tywin doesn't seem like the kind of man that cares about religion or anything, so he doesn't care if his son is married or becomes a bigamist in the eyes of the gods. All he cares about is the practical aspect of the matter. So Tyrion's case is not a good example for a divorce in ASOIAF. As everyone else is saying divorce in Westeros probably goes like this: if one spouse joins a religious or other order requiring celibacy, the marriage is effectively ended, but it's not a divorce per se. Annulment is allowed in the case of no consummation and there is probably some provision for divorce/separation under special circumstances with the intervention of the Faith, probably only for high lords with enough pull to manage it. I don't think there is annulment for the case of close relatives, marriage between first cousins seems to be quite common in the Seven Kingdoms, especially amongst the nobility, and marriage between siblings is probably considered verboten and frowned upon, so nobody does it in the first place, except among the Targaryens, who are a special case (following Valyrian customs and, of course, being the conquerors). We don't really know if there are special rules allowing divorce through a legal process in certain cases, e.g if one spouse is unfaithful, or the marriage has produced no children. I think that in Martin's world such marriages are more likely to end in murder, though.

[Ser Lepus]

I wonder how they deal with those issues in the Free Cities. I guess in many of them you can legally divorce, and maybe you can even adopt an orphan as your own child, or legitimize your bastards if you wish to do so (you may need to pay a tax to the government to get the papers done).

Another issue would be polygamy. If a guy from a polygamous culture like Qarth travels to say Tyrosh, would his all wives still be considered his lawful spouses? and what about the children?.

[Mary Goode]

Sorry about this. I get long when I get fired up! Hence, I am breaking it into pieces…..again, please, please forgive me…I have much to say!

Anyway, from what you've said I can see a decent chance for an annulment. Firstly, he just wouldn't be "Littlefinger" if he hadn't already tracked down Tyrion's servants and prepared them to be used as witnesses.

Not so fast. Most of the scenes from that marriage took place at…..King's Landing. In other words, those servants are ultimately loyal to the queen and/or House Lannister. Littlefinger would have to go to Cersei and ask her for the witnesses. This is problematic on several levels: 1) Cersei is currently in disgrace and probably in no mood to entertain Littlefinger's odd request of, "oh, excuse me, but could I interview your chamber maids and a few other servants even though you have a duel to determine your fate coming up?"

2) If he did ask at any time before Joffrey's death, it would have been a bit bizarre-why would Littlefinger want an insight into the sex life of a dwarf? Wouldn't that raise a few eyebrows? How would the information be useful to him? Answer: it would not have been. Littlefinger was working to poison Joffrey, snatch Sansa, and jail/kill Tyrion (if you look closely, Tyrion is the one character Littlefinger cannot get past easily-although it is not canon, the writers on the show I think made that point well last season for a reason, when Tyrion tells three people three different stories to find a liar.) His motive is to destabilize Cersei, get hold of the heir to Winterfell, and get rid of a man who was too close to Eddard Stark's heir and also too closely connected to the throne. (Littlefinger's spies are mostly whores. Varys is more likely to use servants since he has more ample access to them.) The only other way Littlefinger could deduce Tyrion was not sleeping with Sansa was by talking to Shae, and by all accounts she was working for Tywin in addition to Tyrion, so Shae was not one of his hookers.

3) Rounding up all those servants now would make Cersei suspicious and the woman lived with Sansa for a good deal of time, and though Cersei has extremely poor impulse control problems, she would recognize Sansa if she went to the Eyrie, and Littlefinger going to KL to snoop around and ask about her bedchamber servants at this point would raise her suspicions. Littlefinger wants her destabilized and paranoid. She discovers or suspects Sansa alive=a trip back to King's Landing for Sansa.

Long story short: It would have been tough for Littlefinger to get a hold of up to 30 people without raising eyebrows, now and before Joffrey's murder.

[Mary Goode]

Thirdly LF is likely the richest man in Westeros, he could make some donations to show good faith, or even close his brothels.

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I am rather surprised that not many people in Westeros can count. Littlefinger owns at most three to five brothels. Though he likely has a high paying clientele, the money he makes from the brothel would not be enough to make him the richest man in Westeros. Remember, Littlefinger would still have a lot of overhead to maintain to attract such a high priced clientele: when looking to make a love connection, a Lord would expect to have fine wine, women wearing silk, makeup, perfume, bedding… basically, Littlefinger needs enough dough to maintain that harem; good Lord, the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Vegas would have a lower price tag! The overhead he has to spend cuts into his overall profit as a pimp. I find it strange that nobody has noticed the distinct possibility that in order to get so rich Littlefinger might have been stealing from the coffer at King's Landing, not in amounts large enough to be noticeable, but enough to slowly build quite the nest egg. (Old King Baratheon was a warrior, not an accountant, and Cersei would never have the patience for such minutia to pay attention to WHY the coffers ran short now and again.) He was a council member for a time that predates the books, so he could have been at it for quite a while. By now, he must be sitting on a nice horde, like Smaug in his lair.

[Mary Goode]

And then if word spreads of Tyrion's whereabouts it won't be long before his lady companion is reported. Or if he keeps avoiding her, how long will "the Imp" stay faithful in Mereen, now the brothel capitol of the world? This will off course also be reported.

I find it odd that a lot of people around here don't notice something about Tyrion in the second half of the last book: he stopped whoring. Totally. Not even a quick "how's your father" with another slave when the fat guy was his master. For Tyrion, that is miraculous in and of itself.-here is a guy who hasn't been able to keep it in his pants since he was fifteen. Second, people in King's Landing will be much more interested in the fact that he has fallen in with a company of Sellswords, Jorah Mormont, and Daenerys Targaryen: people who pose a threat to the throne. The fact that Tyrion has found another dwarf might be more of a joke, a lighthearted piece of fluff in comparison to the much bigger news that he is with Daenerys and her dragons, and thus ignored. (I don't know why Penny is in the story, but thus far, no sparks are flying. I don't think Penny's purpose in the story is to provide Tyrion with a cliched miniature love interest: I think her purpose is to teach him humility and self worth. Besides, let's think rationally for a minute, taking a step outside the books-look at Peter Dinklage's filmography. He really does not like playing the dwarf du jour and going through the subject matter he hates cliches; he has even spoken about disliking aspects of fantasy where dwarfs "do not get the princess":http://www.pbs.org/pov/nobiggerthanaminute/video_dinklage.php. I doubt that Dinklage would have signed on to GoT if they gave his character the obvious choice of bumping uglies with another dwarf come season 4, esp since most of his career he has done films where his characters tend to go to bed with average height women as a principle.)

[Mary Goode]

If I were Littlefinger this is what I would use to present Sansa's case to the High Sparrow.Off course sucess is not guaranteed, but the odds are pretty good at least in my view.

I think you presume a lot when you presume that Littlefinger would go to the High Septon to obtain an annulment: I think that Littlefinger presumes that Tyrion is as good as dead; stuck in the Eyrie he is much less likely to hear the gossip of King's Landing and even less likely to hear state intelligence on the council; the last he heard of Tyrion was him going on trial and escaping to points unknown, with Cersei beheading any dwarf she could lay her hands on and raving like a lunatic that Tyrion was still in Westeros (it won't reach him that Tyrion is with Daenerys until at least the end of Winds of Winter.) Personally, (and I know my POV is not popular) I think that Littlefinger may be angling to control the kingdoms one piece at a time, with Sansa as the key. Sansa is the heir to Winterfell and I would wager she will stay that way-Her brother Bran seems to have a burning ambition to become an overgrown talking topiary like his forbearer and Rickon (if I had to make a bet) is going to wander into Stannis's camp and get killed (Stannis is going to do the stupid thing and make for Winterfell: Skagos is under that jurisdiction, so if not Rickon leaving the island and getting caught, it would only be a matter of time before someone found him.)

Now, Sansa is the heir of Winterfell. Through blood, she is also a potential heir to Riverrun, the Eyrie, and any holdings of the Blackfish. That is a huge chunk of Westeros. The match with Harry the Heir I think is an enormous red herring: there isn't much time to develop his character and the arc of the whole tale seems to be going elsewhere if we judge the fact that the first chapters Martin released was a battle, plus the new one discussing Dornish alliances with the Targs. I think that Littlefinger has no intention of Sansa Stark ever claiming Winterfell in her own right: this is a man who is an excellent schemer and who has many, many reasons to be hungry for power. (He was denied Catelyn Tully because his standing was not good enough, he is underestimated at court because he is only a minor lord, he has been doing his damnedest to build up his stature ever since-think that's enough of a motive or should I go on?) I think he is going to betroth Sansa alright, since he needs to maintain her trust. However, I do not think the wedding will come. People on this board forget that the Arryns were loyal to the Baratheons-Jon Arryn was Baratheon's hand and when he was younger Jon Arryn was deeply loyal to Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark as their mentor. Harry is next in line after Sweetrobin, who is slowly being murdered by Littlefinger using poison. Harry is also notably the only heir to the Eyrie left: there are almost no other claimants. What I think Littlefinger is up to, is that he intends to get Harry killed, most likely by sending him to the aid of Stannis Baratheon at Winterfell as cannon fodder. Once that is squared away, he can convince the remaining Arryns to name Sansa Stark as heiress out of loyalty to Eddard, who was "like a son to Jon Arryn." Since he is keeper of the Eyrie, and ever looking the hero to a fooled Sansa (letting her white knight on his steed go fight for Baratheon for HER BELOVED WINTERFELL) he basically weasels his way into a huge amount of power. The cherry on top is that he gets to bed a virgin who looks like her mother's doppelgänger.

Getting back to Tyrion, the first chapter we have of him is him getting involved in some sort of battle or siege. He has already promised a lot of people a lot of gold as Lord of Casterly Rock….which would imply that he is looking to wrestle Casterly Rock out of his sister's hands. The only person for miles with the army to do that is Dany Targaryen. Let's review what we know of Tyrion: he wants Casterly Rock back. He has much to offer Daenarys if he can get access to her, like intelligence regarding the setup of King's Landing, information about Cersei's children, information about the factions in Westeros, and lest we forget, he has read a lot of books about DRAGONS. I do not think he shall have sex on his mind: revenge will be more at the forefront. If he wants to stay alive, and join Dany on her invasion of Westeros, I think he will be spending a lot of time with the Sellswords doing that which his father neglected to do: teaching him how to fight.

[Burning down the House]

BTW, Henry VIII had been married to Catherine of Aragon for quarter century, had had a child with her and still managed to have the marriage annulled. It's all a matter of political clout.

My Tutor history is a bit rusty but I'm pretty sure Henry VIII get that divorce by becoming the head of his own church and granting it himself. Also I think it was an annulment.