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Divorce in the kingdoms


Lion of Judah

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THANK YOU! Most people look at me like I have got a tin pot on my head when I argue anything at all regarding Tyrion and Sansa. Sincerely I am grateful-this is the first time I have not been shot down!!! Yaaay me!! :cool4: :cool4: :cool4: :cool4:

The truth is, if Sansa smartened up (and let's pray she does) she would realize that staying married to Tyrion would be a much better chess move than going in for an annulment: such a move would prevent Littlefinger from killing off Harry and Sweetrobin, seizing the Eyrie, and manipulating her into becoming his whore. Through her, as I explained, he has a means of getting his greasy paws on three of the seven kingdoms. If that is true, I suspect what Littlefinger would try for next more than anything would be to get Sansa pregnant and cement his miniature empire, and by then, it would be too late for Sansa to escape the man who helped murder her father, her aunt, Joffrey, and likely had a hand in the deaths of countless others. People forget a lot of things about Littlefinger on this board, and most disturbingly, two key facts: he had an unhealthy attachment to Catelyn Tully, number one, and number two, he has had ample experience manipulating women into doing what he wants: as a brothel owner with a high priced clientele he would have to look far and wide for the best specimens (beautiful, literate, and naive) he could gather and convince them to sell their bodies and let him take a portion of the profits they earn on their back.

It doesn't stop with prostitutes. He's already manipulated his way into Lysa's bed and cruelly took advantage of the life long torch she carried for him, breaking her heart and destroying her when she was no longer useful. He killed the only person who ever loved him and thought nothing of it. He could not let it go when Cat Tully rejected him, and if my hypotheses are correct, he has built a whole life around that slight: beneath that calm facade is a cold blooded snake that Eddard Stark, if he were alive, would be looking to skin and use its guts for garters for what the snake is doing to his little girl. Sansa Stark is in grave danger indeed: the downside to having a very good player of the game of thrones is that the same player might turn his skills on you. She truly does not see that Littlefinger is no different than many other men who have used and abused her for her claim to Winterfell, and does not know about how her father really died. Littlefinger has played it smart from the beginning: being open about his desires and motives would make Sansa shut the door on him forever. He saw this in King's Landing with the Lannisters. He realized quickly he needed another approach. Seducing her with kind words and tricking her into believing he is her savior opens the door and allows his machinations to be put in place.

Given Sansa's character, and remembering who her parents were, I do not think it is likely she will stay a pliant mouse forever and that Littlefinger underestimates her in this regard. The first time she betrayed someone it is notable that she did it out of being immature and not out of malice. That was two years ago. She is getting older. She is witnessing first hand how brutal games of realpolitik are played. One day she may come to realize the only man who was ever really kind to her for kindness sake (more than once, mind) was Tyrion. He came to her aid when she was about to be beaten, he did not do what most men seeking to cement their claim to a title would do and force her to sleep with him (the Tyrells, Freys, other Lannisters and Littlefinger would not have hesitated for a minute) and up until he was arrested, he was planning to take her away from King's Landing to Casterly Rock, away from his horrible family. She seems to be learning the hard way a lesson that her father never got to teach her: all that glisters is not gold. Woe betide Petyr Baelish when the day comes where he remembers a simple fact: Sansa is the daughter of Eddard Stark, a man who was an expert leader before he was cut down, and somewhere in that nest of red hair is a she wolf. (They used to call Eddard the quiet wolf when he was young-I wonder if a part of Sansa takes after her Daddy.....)

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As for Tyrion, he is obviously not going to have contesting his marriage vows at the forefront of his mind in the next book; I would bet the farm on it. He is going to be learning how to fight, and I suspect he will indeed be one of the three heads of the dragon as right now Dany has no idea how to control her dragons: the best she can do at this point is keep them from eating too much of the people around her. He is likely going to ride the white dragon because it is the smallest and most tractable; the easiest dragon to approach is going to be the easiest to train, and I suspect Viserion is the calmest because he is the smartest (recognized someone as female, was closest to clawing way out of pit.) The big black one is obviously going to be Dany's dragon as he is the wildest of the bunch and frankly only Dany is not scared stupid of him (it also makes a very nice literary parallel with Balerion the Black Dread and his rider....GRRM I doubt keeps mentioning Aegon the Conqueror's dragon just for his health. It is in several of the books for a reason.) He will be trained last, since he is the one most likely to look at Tyrion like an hors d'oeuvre: Tyrion is likely the only guy for miles that has done any serious reading on dragons and thus he is in prime position to be a trainer. The green one is going to be the third head's mount, but I am not going to waste my time speculating who it is because the only one that makes sense is Jon (GRRM has spent an awful lot of ink on that boy to just have him go tits up, and GRRM did mention that an early scene with Tyrion and Jon in the first book would be very important-why would GRRM do that, plus spend a lot of ink through four more books if he wasn't going to do anything big with Jon?) Tyrion obviously wants Casterly Rock and from the back of a dragon he would be difficult to beat as nobody has seen a dragon in ages and my guess is that the knowledge of how to kill them has been lost or at least not taught to the average soldier: mounting an attack from the ground at Casterly Rock or Lannisport for Cersei shall be interesting.

From a political standpoint, Tyrion, if he gets back the Westerlands, will find himself in a very powerful position: if he remains married to Sansa, he and she will be the inheritors of four of the seven kingdoms. That is an enormous power base to work from, and if he stays allied to Dany (and I think he will) he will find allies in Dorne. It would be his sister Cersei's worst nightmare. Looking at the map she will be almost totally surrounded. Dany is sure to try to land in Dorne and the Greyjoys are unlikely to be loyal to Cersei. Stannis is the last man standing for House Baratheon. He is obviously not Azor Ahai (the sword did not catch fire for him.) His witch has been misreading the signs in the flames and it is JON she wants, not Stannis. When she realizes her mistake, I do not think that Stannis will last long. The Reach would be the only piece of the puzzle missing: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, here we have an ersatz site for the Battle of Bosworth Field, Westeros style.

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Mary Goode, I am really happy about your posts.

Whenever I posted anything like that about the Tyrion/Sansa topic, and I like your ideas, I got really unfriendly comments.

There is the rereading Tyrion thread in the reread section. Many posters may not share your (or my) opinions but this thread is free of hatemail against minority positions and hugely interesting.

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My Tutor history is a bit rusty but I'm pretty sure Henry VIII get that divorce by becoming the head of his own church and granting it himself. Also I think it was an annulment.

You're right it was a divorce, because Henry VIII couldn't get an annulment from the Pope.

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You're right it was a divorce, because Henry VIII couldn't get an annulment from the Pope.

Actually it was more complex than that. Catherine of Aragon was originally promised to Henry's older brother, Arthur. Arthur became sick and died before he could be crowned king. His brother, only a lad at the time, was actually intended not to marry at all as his schooling would suggest his parents saw a future for him in the clergy. Arthur was his father's favorite and by far had the steadier temperament; Henry the Younger took more after his grandmothers Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth Woodville. In the middle of all this, Henry VII (the conqueror during the War of the Roses) decided he did not want to send back Catherine or her dowry to Spain, so he sent away a letter to the Pope asking for help. The Pope granted Henry VII's son and Catherine a special dispensation so they could marry (which they did) and after Henry VII died, his son became king with Catherine as his queen.

So you see, by the time Anne Boleyn came along, Henry thought himself some sort of expert on theology and also entitled to do whatever the hell he wanted. He built his case around a chapter of Leviticus, just as the pope who granted a dispensation used the same book to give textual evidence to allow his first marriage to take place. This would have angered the pope mightily and my private opinion is that Henry VIII was a selfish monster.

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This would have angered the pope mightily.

Also Charles of Habsburg, king of Spain and emperor of the Holy Roman Empire had his troops in Italy, twisting and squeezing the pope's metaphorical balls (he eventually attacked and sacked Rome, making the pope his prisioner), so it would have been a very, very, very bad idea to provoke his wrath annulling his aunt Catherine's marriage and making his cousin Mary into a bastard. The Habsburgs (and their Trastamara relatives, like Catherine) were a tight-knit family that stood and fought together (I think that's one of the reasons they tended to marry into the family; why would you fight your cousin, when your son is probably going to marry his daughter and inherit it all?).

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Mary Goode: You obviously have a fierce love for the Sansa/Imp shipping. I must say I feel the exact opposite. But not to get all emotional, I think the story of the ugly boy with a good heart who gets the princess is far too cliched for GRRM. Either the Tyrion will suffer a tragic end or he will regain Sansa by being even more ruthless than his father.

To say that Sansa can claim 3 kingdoms is a long stretch, the North is not so far fetched but the Riverlands belong to Edmure if the Tullys are reinstated as lord paramount and not some other family and Sansa has no Arryn blood to claim the Vale.

Tyrion's servants he employed himself so he wouldn't be spied on, one was questioned by Brienne and was unemployed at the time. There were only 3 of them as far as I recall so papa Kettleblack could easily be sent to retrieve them.

Then there is another technicality, Sansa was only married in a Sept and not before a Heart Tree, which should be required for a Stark, Ned and Cat had both.

P.S I meant that thing about long comments as a compliment.

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I must say I feel the exact opposite. But not to get all emotional, I think the story of the ugly boy with a good heart who gets the princess is far too cliched for GRRM

The man worked his hide off on a television show based on the fairytale Beauty and the Beast. I would rather not go into each individual episode like a bum picking fleas out of his hair, but clearly he likes that particular fairytale quite a bit. Alas, for many on this board, the man is not entirely made of blood and guts and ruthless things:http://www.sfx.co.uk/2011/09/27/george-rr-martin-on-beauty-and-the-beast-reboot/ I also might add that in addition to blood and guts he seems to have a soft spot for Keats, Shelley, Byron, and William Shakespeare: Privately I find the last one notable because if you take away the giant pedestal people have put that guy on and the tricky language that scares most teenagers to death when confronted with it, you have a very competent story smith who was the author of both Titus Andronicus (bloody beyond belief) and the author of Sonnets 145, 50, 25, 117, and 136 (recent scholarship suggests these were written for his wife: they are quite tender and sweet.)

Then there is another technicality, Sansa was only married in a Sept and not before a Heart Tree, which should be required for a Stark, Ned and Cat had both.

First off, the Starks have been all but wiped out by most reckoning in Westeros: the Arya Stark they do have is fake, and the real one hundreds of miles away in Essos. Rickon is presumed dead. Bran, as I have explained, is busy learning how to use his powers and probably going to stay north of the wall. Ned is gone. Ned's brother is missing and presumed dead. Robb is dead. These were the last noble worshippers of the Old Faith. Why would anyone give a hoot about Sasna not being married according to her father's creed if her father died in disgrace and there aren't many left to speak about the problem, when the New Faith is in the clear majority? It would not suit the septons to care whether Sansa Stark had been married according to the old faith since from a political perspective it would be better to be able to extend their influence to the Kingdom in the North and with the Starks out of the way this is better able to be achieved. Also, the political situation in Westeros is unstable at best right now: nobody is going to care about Sansa not being wed according to the Old Gods when there are bigger fish to fry.

To say that Sansa can claim 3 kingdoms is a long stretch, the North is not so far fetched but the Riverlands belong to Edmure if the Tullys are reinstated as lord paramount and not some other family and Sansa has no Arryn blood to claim the Vale.

You seem to be under the impression that Edmure and his little family will survive being locked up at Casterly Rock. The next available heir to the Riverlands are the children of Cat Tully. Baelish is now in charge of the Riverlands, and I don't think he took that position up for his health-if he produces Sansa, with a little maneuvering he can get the Riverlands (even without Sansa he has Sweetrobin, who inherits after the Stark children, so if his bid for Riverrun for Sansa fails, he has a backup plan of keeping Sweetrobin alive just long enough to get him vested with the Riverlands. I presume he would do this in case of unforeseen complications, doing it as insurance.)

Jon Arryn has one son, only one child and all the other branches of his family are too old to beget any more heirs. Harry the Heir I doubt will make it out of Littlefinger's clutches in one piece. It would not be too hard for Littlefinger to argue either his plan to confer the title of Lord of the Eyrie on himself, or argue Sansa's case since many times in the first book it mentions how Baratheon and Ned Stark were like sons to Jon Arryn. (Littlefinger is very good at manipulating people. In his mind all he has to do is cajole a few old biddies in their grief over the death of Harry and boom! He has what he wants.) I doubt that the remaining Arryns will want the Eyrie to revert back to the crown given the mongolian cluster f*** the situation with Cersei has become. To them, Brutus is an honorable man.

Tyrion's servants he employed himself so he wouldn't be spied on, one was questioned by Brienne and was unemployed at the time. There were only 3 of them as far as I recall so papa Kettleblack could easily be sent to retrieve them.

That would not include chamber maids. The people employed in cleaning up the bedroom and serving meals would be crucial. As far as these servants could testify, Tyrion shared a bed with Sansa. And Osmund Kettleblack has a name that is crap with the Septon and Faiths Militant; he is in a dungeon now. They are unlikely to believe a word he says. Furthermore, there is a line that Cersei casually says when she thinks about Margaery Tyrell and how she has no maidenhead: noble girls often lose that to horseback riding. I often wonder if this was put there as a way to open up reasonable doubt for Sansa later; Sansa herself might not have a maidenhead and if she does methinks that Littlefinger wants it. OTT, the current Septon's behavior with Margarey suggests he is rather implacable regarding marriage. The wedding vows actually have meaning to him and since Tyrion is not dead, Sansa cannot marry again.

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Hello? Anybody wanna jump in?

Fine.

First off to say that Ned Stark was the last worshiper of the Old Gods is wrong. In fact the only Northern house to worship the Seven is Manderly (which is part of the reason why they're not considered true Northerners) and the Faith have barely more influence there than in the Iron Islands (even if the TV show gives another impression).Any attempts to establish it's power there will not be taken kindly by the people who are proud of their historical defiance of the Andals.

I meant old Oswell Kettleblack, the father who LF has running around KL collecting information and he would only find witnesses, not appear in court. Weren't those three servants handling everything inside the apartment, including changing bed sheets Tyrion wanted to keep them few and not have other's spies running about there.

The High Sparrow might not afford to be that uncompromising as his legitimacy could certainly be questioned. He used his thugs to blackmail his way to power after all. What if the Vale lords did and the Bishop(?) of the Vale wed Sansa?

LF could make himself lord of the Eyrie, if he makes all the lords utterly dependent on him but that would take several years, which he won't have. The Jon- Ned relationship doesn't mean anything, Jon had other heirs. Without Harry the lordship simply passes to the next offshoot branch way back.

About the plot line argument, I didn't do my homework there it seems. But theirs was never a love-love relationship but a pity-indifference one, always makes you feel all warm and buttery inside doesn't it?

You really enjoy this topic don't you?

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I think there is a certain plot logic that Martin wishes to write Sansa and Tyrion together, if only for a short time of - what? - peace, recognition and happiness. GRRM has a tendency to repeat story arcs undr a different aspect and turned upside down. And then maybe he kills the two off the next day in some heroic finale WROOM! Or not.

But the legal status of their marriage may have little influence about their staying or not staying together since none will use force to keep the other for the rest of his or her life at miserable dinners for two and apart together in a very cold bed.

If they stayed together - and how can I know what Martin intends - it will be out of free will, for sympathy, love or political reflections, may they be legally married or not.

The craziest plot would be if they had their marriage somehow annulled and then decided later to stay together nonetheless. But I agree with Mary Goode: Many posters here are assuming that the the plot inevitably moves towards an annullment of that marriage and then Sansa's new life will begin.......I think the whole annullment topic is grossly overestimated in its plot importance. If at all it will be a red herring. I though see a certain possibility that Baelish will produce a fake Tysha in the hope of turning the Sansa/Tyrion marriage invalid and to lure Tyrion back to Westeros, and this will lead the latter to act irrationally, endangering himself very much. I posted this crackpot last summer and somewhere in autumn there has already been a thread about it, too lazy to search.

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The craziest plot would be if they had their marriage somehow annulled and then decided later to stay together nonetheless.

Hardly "crazy" as it is one of the stock tropes of made for TV movies and romance novels. It would be fairly predictable. Although saying that, he also wrote Dany/Drogo, which is so Mills and Boon it is beyond belief.

But I agree with Mary Goode: Many posters here are assuming that the the plot inevitably moves towards an annullment of that marriage and then Sansa's new life will begin.......I think the whole annullment topic is grossly overestimated in its plot importance. If at all it will be a red herring.

Very possible should Sansa remain Alyane Stone.

I though see a certain possibility that Baelish will produce a fake Tysha in the hope of turning the Sansa/Tyrion marriage invalid and to lure Tyrion back to Westeros, and this will lead the latter to act irrationally, endangering himself very much. I posted this crackpot last summer and somewhere in autumn there has already been a thread about it, too lazy to search.

I know it was discussed in the PtP thread and Lyanna Stark wrote quite a bit about the Fake Tysha theory. It is very possible a fake Tysha will be produced, but given that we have almost certainly seen the real Tysha and Tyrion's daughter in Braavos, I would assume that they are there either as a nod to what happened to Tysha, or as a plot point as Tyrion may very well head to Braavos, or LF with his connections actually produces them after Aegon takes power, as a way for Sansa's marriage to be annulled without her having to reveal herself. This would also fit into the Maggy the Frog Prophecy as once again Sansa would be the Catalyst for Cersei having what she loves most being taken from her: In this case, being the Lady of Casterly Rock, which would go to Lanna Lannister.

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Of course all kinds of Tysha variations are possible, even a happily ever after between Tyrion and Tysha - always with the possibility of tragic heroic death in the background. Though I am quite sure that Tyrion won't get everything even if he survives the books. If he gets " the girl", may it be Sansa, Tysha or someone even our wildest fanfics have no idea about he won't get Casterly Rock. If he gets CR, he may sit there alone with old stones for company.

Only I think he might grow above or beyond wanting CR as vision for his life, like growing above wanting to kill his sister. Then maybe he might get the Rock when he has no desire at all for this kind of legacy anymore and he may get " the girl" when he stops expecting anything. I think Martin might prove him wrong in his belief of being unlovable if only for a few hours of happiness. Like with all characters: what you desire the most you will for sure not get until you have learned not to want it at all costs anymore.

And of course every variation of Beauty and The Beast can be seen as incredibly cheesy, but the difference between emotionally touching and kitsch is a very fine line. And art or literature are always on thin ice here. Very often is is only marked by who gets the cheese: your favorite character (touching and good literature) or "the enemy" (kitsch).

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THANK YOU! Most people look at me like I have got a tin pot on my head when I argue anything at all regarding Tyrion and Sansa. Sincerely I am grateful-this is the first time I have not been shot down!!! Yaaay me!! :cool4: :cool4: :cool4: :cool4:

One day she may come to realize the only man who was ever really kind to her for kindness sake (more than once, mind) was Tyrion. He came to her aid when she was about to be beaten, he did not do what most men seeking to cement their claim to a title would do and force her to sleep with him (the Tyrells, Freys, other Lannisters and Littlefinger would not have hesitated for a minute) and up until he was arrested, he was planning to take her away from King's Landing to Casterly Rock, away from his horrible family.

LOL, that's funny. And wrong.

Also, I've seen previous posts of yours get shot down too. I believe it was because they mostly were concerned with how the two of them would somehow end up together, an opinion that is very much in the minority based upon the reams of textual evidence within the series.

Mary Goode: You obviously have a fierce love for the Sansa/Imp shipping. I must say I feel the exact opposite. But not to get all emotional, I think the story of the ugly boy with a good heart who gets the princess is far too cliched for GRRM. Either the Tyrion will suffer a tragic end or he will regain Sansa by being even more ruthless than his father.

Mary Goode is a diehard Sansa/Tyrion shipper which is probably quite obvious by now. The majority of the fandom feels the same way as you do.

Martin does do the Beauty and the Beast theme with Sansa but it's not as clear cut as the idea that the two of them will end up together, as is being implied.

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Hello? Anybody wanna jump in?

Holey moley, I better stay out of all of this :blushing:

I better just answer the initial question, I think that since the marriage was never consumated, she can most likely get it annuled if it is proven that she is innocent…Or you argue that her forced marriage was some sort of violation of guest right and get her out of this that way.

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The Beauty and the Beast dynamic is too predictable, we know how that tale is going to end. Tyrion's physical disposition is not what makes him the Beast IMO, he is a dark grey character whereas Sansa represents one of the more pure characters in the books. This is why I don't foresee the pairing of Tyrion and Sansa playing out in a Beauty and the Beast way.

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The Beauty and the Beast dynamic is too predictable, we know how that tale is going to end. Tyrion's physical disposition is not what makes him the Beast IMO, he is a dark grey character whereas Sansa represents one of the more pure characters in the books. This is why I don't foresee the pairing of Tyrion and Sansa playing out in a Beauty and the Beast way.

You're right. Tyrion is an interesting morally grey character whose faults shouldn't be tied up with the 'nice guy needs to get pretty girl' trope.

I understand the whole 'Sansa learns not to like pretty people' plot point if it wasn't already clear by Storm of Swords she no longer was as prejudiced by being willing to marry Willas Tyrell. Heck her 'relationship' with Sandor and Dontos kind of voids the point Sansa needs to remain married to Tyrion because she's too 'shallow'.

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