Azor Ahai is really....

[tom_saxon]

Daenerys. Who else could it be.

Melisandre tells Davos:

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Daenerys is born on an Island during a storm that sunk the reaining Targaryen fleet. That is salt.

She is reborn in Drogos funeral pyre, a true baptism of fire. That is smoke.

And mostly, most obviously, she wakes dragons out of stone.

[Bad Hound!]

The question is does Melisandre know that AA is not actually Stannis? She deffo lets Stannis think she believes it is him, but what does she think really?

Even Maester Aemon knows that he can't be Stannis -

when he asks Stannis to show him Lightbringer, and then asks Sam "but did you actually feel any heat? I didn't feel any heat", I think then he knows that Lightbringer is a fake, not the real thing. Aemon is a Targ and he would know about the real Lightbringer, even if he is blind

[Isilud]

Probably. I'm one of the rare people who hopes it's nobody. Prophecies and destined heroes are a plot device I've come to detest, and having this particular series avoid them would be nice. Good guess, though. It does meet the criteria.

[tom_saxon]

I think Melisandre is privy to information otherwise unknown to most others, so I think she knows Stannis is not the AA. Not to get to deep into it, but there is esoteric knowledge and mundane knowledge, the esoteric is more symbolic and mundane is more obvious. Like the Hierophant and the High Preistess of the tarot. The ritual Stannis underwent in attaining "Lightbringer" is all show, that which Daenarys underwent was mysterious and reflects what myth tells us about such initiations. Thats my view anyways =p

[tom_saxon]

Probably. I'm one of the rare people who hopes it's nobody. Prophecies and destined heroes are a plot device I've come to detest, and having this particular series avoid them would be nice. Good guess, though. It does meet the criteria.

I really think -am hoping- that Martin is drawing from history and established myth where prophecies etc are concerned. So there may be a prophesy/dream that does become actual but not in exactly the same way the prophets subjective filter forsaw it. That is also a convinient way to leave flexibility for future creative. So we can can things foreshadowed but not explididly spelled out in advance. I like that. (pls forgive th typos)

[Top12Gun]

If Dany ends up being the savior of Westeros, I will be nauseous by the end of the series............

[tom_saxon]

If Dany ends up being the savior of Westeros, I will be nauseous by the end of the series............

The funny thing about the idea of savior is they tend to save some and annihlate others. So it depends on whether your getting annihlated or saved. To me it means more conflict and drama in the story, which I think is a good thing. Then again maybe her dragons will eat her and just run wild through the world and that will be the end of that storyline. Who knows with Martin :P

[tom_saxon]

btw I cant wait to get further along in the books because I am also thinking Danys is an actual dragon in human form, that all the "dragonblooded" targs were and that the old-school targs warged dragons but in a way that physically fused the two species together. I am almost thinking that the dragons warged people more than the other way around and that very well may be what we are seeing with Melisandre. I only say that because in myth dragons are less like giant pets or simple monsters and more like demi-gods of the magickal creature type. But now this is a load of crack-pottery, but fun none the less.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

The question is does Melisandre know that AA is not actually Stannis? She deffo lets Stannis think she believes it is him, but what does she think really?

Even Maester Aemon knows that he can't be Stannis -

when he asks Stannis to show him Lightbringer, and then asks Sam "but did you actually feel any heat? I didn't feel any heat", I think then he knows that Lightbringer is a fake, not the real thing. Aemon is a Targ and he would know about the real Lightbringer, even if he is blind

Exactly! Even if Mellisandre legitimately believes Stannis is Azhor, I sincerely doubt she'll be convinced Daeny or Baeric is the legit AA. She doesn't seem to be the type of person to compromise or admit mistakes.

btw I cant wait to get further along in the books because I am also thinking Danys is an actual dragon in human form, that all the "dragonblooded" targs were and that the old-school targs warged dragons but in a way that physically fused the two species together. I am almost thinking that the dragons warged people more than the other way around and that very well may be what we are seeing with Melisandre. I only say that because in myth dragons are less like giant pets or simple monsters and more like demi-gods of the magickal creature type. But now this is a load of crack-pottery, but fun none the less.

Targaryens as dragon wargs? Daaaaaaamn!

I don't know why I never thought of it before. I have no idea if your theory will turn out to be right, but tt makes total sense. Also, Daeny keeps hinting she's going to have to find two othe rpeople she can trust to ride the other dragons. I wonder if they'll be wargs. Paging Bran Stark.

[tom_saxon]

Exactly! Even if Mellisandre legitimately believes Stannis is Azhor, I sincerely doubt she'll be convinced Daeny or Baeric is the legit AA. She doesn't seem to be the type of person to compromise or admit mistakes.

Targaryens as dragon wargs? Daaaaaaamn!

I don't know why I never thought of it before. I have no idea if your theory will turn out to be right, but tt makes total sense. Also, Daeny keeps hinting she's going to have to find two othe rpeople she can trust to ride the other dragons. I wonder if they'll be wargs. Paging Bran Stark.

There is an (unpublished) writing project I have been working on (on and off) for the past 20 years in this same genre and one of the primary characters is a female dragon in human form, "imbedded" in human society who didn't know/forgot she was actually a dragon. When I realized that Martin may be doing exactly the same thing with Daeny, I thought "damn, can't do this now, someones already done it".

The beautifull thing about ASoIaF isn't so much the individual characters, the storylines of the houses, but the slow unfolding of the whole story of this world Martin has/is crafting. THAT, to me, is the real song of Ice and Fire. He is telling the global history of a fantastic world through the eyes of a few key individuals as the paradigm of that worlds its self, is the process of of shifting.

[Sam Huxley]

If anyone it is going to be Dany; born amidst salt and smoke... Was it not on the Dothraki Sea she had the funeral pyre, may not be actual salt, but still it can be referred to it like that and the smoke is obvious from the pyre. Also the woods witch said it was going to be someone born from the line of King Aerys II, and Aemon thought it was Rhaegar, which it obviously wasn't. So why not Dany? Might be Jon IF he is definitely Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, or could even be Aegon if he is actually a Targaryen.

Would be more interesting to see if there wasn't actually an Azor Ahai at all, because the wall will stop the Others anyway, unless they find a way to bring it down (Horn of Joramun)

[PetyrPunkinhead]

There is an (unpublished) writing project I have been working on (on and off) for the past 20 years in this same genre and one of the primary characters is a female dragon in human form, "imbedded" in human society who didn't know/forgot she was actually a dragon. When I realized that Martin may be doing exactly the same thing with Daeny, I thought "damn, can't do this now, someones already done it".

Eh. I haven't read the last two books yet, but your theory of "inverse wargs" vis a vis dragons may still be safe. And certainly GRRM wasn't the first person to ever come up w/ the idea of people possesing the bodies of animals. I hope you don't give up on your idea; it sounds interesting.

The beautifull thing about ASoIaF isn't so much the individual characters, the storylines of the houses, but the slow unfolding of the whole story of this world Martin has/is crafting. THAT, to me, is the real song of Ice and Fire. He is telling the global history of a fantastic world through the eyes of a few key individuals as the paradigm of that worlds its self, is the process of of shifting.

Agreed, the scope of this thing is epic. He's taking his damn sweet time gettign the books out, but the establishing of a world and its history is what Tolkien did in LOTR and I think GRRM is taking it a step further in showing how this world is going through major changes. But as much as the world building/altering is fun to read and see unfold, if I could just get Tyrion, Daeny, Arya, and Jon's stories I'd be just as happy.

[TheMysteriousOne]

If anyone it is going to be Dany; born amidst salt and smoke... Was it not on the Dothraki Sea she had the funeral pyre, may not be actual salt, but still it can be referred to it like that and the smoke is obvious from the pyre. Also the woods witch said it was going to be someone born from the line of King Aerys II, and Aemon thought it was Rhaegar, which it obviously wasn't. So why not Dany? Might be Jon IF he is definitely Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, or could even be Aegon if he is actually a Targaryen.

Would be more interesting to see if there wasn't actually an Azor Ahai at all, because the wall will stop the Others anyway, unless they find a way to bring it down (Horn of Joramun)

Actually the salt is probably because of Dragonstone, because the prophecy says "amidst salt".

[tom_saxon]

Eh. I haven't read the last two books yet, but your theory of "inverse wargs" vis a vis dragons may still be safe. And certainly GRRM wasn't the first person to ever come up w/ the idea of people possesing the bodies of animals. I hope you don't give up on your idea; it sounds interesting.

Thanks. A being of higher consciousness would nescessarily 'warg' a being of lower consciousness etc. So if dragons are 'god-like' (R'hllor perhaps is a dragon), it would make sense.

Agreed, the scope of this thing is epic. He's taking his damn sweet time gettign the books out, but the establishing of a world and its history is what Tolkien did in LOTR and I think GRRM is taking it a step further in showing how this world is going through major changes. But as much as the world building/altering is fun to read and see unfold, if I could just get Tyrion, Daeny, Arya, and Jon's stories I'd be just as happy.

The thing I did like about Tolkein is that much of the ground work and backstory for middle earth was laid out prior to lotr, so lotr its self could be a conclusion to things that had their start long long before the events in the trilogy took place. For example, you don't really know who Sauron is until you read earlier works featuring Morgoth, but all of that can be a little tiring in a way that Martins work never is. Martin is drawn out and loooong, but never really tiring.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

So, let me see if I've got this straight: in your theory some dragons of old Valyria "warged" the Targaryens and somehow left a bit of the dragon essence in the Targaryen DNA. So the dragons Aegon and his sisterwives rode to conquer Westeros--would you theorize they were "warged" by the Targaryen's or vice versa?

To me, the theory could hold up in that the dragons used to "warg" humans, but it was rare--like human wargs--and those dragons eventually died out. But the Targaryen's DNA was altered by these "warging dragons" (dwargons?) and thus they eventually turned the tables on the dragons and 'tamed' them.

[Arya Mormont]

The warg theory makes sense to me. The Stark/Direwolf connection was established within, what, 50 pages? A gun introduced in the first act must go off by the final act, right? I don't feel like the "use" of wargs has justified their existence just yet.