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PetyrPunkinhead

Characters you changed your mind about after finishing ASOS...

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Catelyn (after her death) and Sansa are becoming more and more interesting.I thought they were very stupid but I can't wait to read for them.Daenerys is starting to annoy me even though she is my favourite.


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Sansa and Jaime were two characters I hated in the first book, after ASoS I loved them. Daenerys on the other hand started to annoy the hell out of me.


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Sam and Sansa are becoming really interesting (I'm close to finishing ASoS) ,Sam faster ,when I read that chapter where he meets that mysterious guy,I just wanted more . Sansa is slowly getting better, but very slowly, after her marrige it gets better. And for the end, Roose Bolton, I like him even more after Red Weeding, that may be insane ...He is a very smart guy, great politician and good military commander. If you want to talk about honor, would it be honor for him to sacrafice 12.000 lives (that is amount of men Robb has?) only because Robb thinks he can win this war? You can also look at this, he is the one who brought peace and made Iron Islanders run...After watching tv series I just hated him but after reading the books and thinking more about him, I like him more and more...By the way,if someone wants to keep this formal ,banner man can chose to support Iron Throne or his Lord...He created best situation for him,from horrible position he freed The North, became Lord of same and ended the war...


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I liked Catelyn more as the stories went on (pre-dead Cat, that is). She was a real b---h in the first book, especially towards Jon, but by ASoS she becomes very likable. She puts her family above all else, feels empathy towards those in her family done wrong (Lysa in particular), toes the line between giving Robb good council and allowing him to make his own mistakes (as teenagers will), and the immense grief she feels after Ned's death and what she believes to be the deaths of Bran, Rickon and possibly Arya.


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Dany is a strong one on this matter.



I was loving her hard rock the first books... but when she arrived to Meereen all went from bad to worse. She's too idealistic and has a lot to learn, but she doesn't listen to Ser Barristan and even though she feels she's doing her duty as queen, she will never be considered a true queen on those lands. Instead of getting ready and planning what to do to get the throne, she's ignoring the help of Dorne... her one true goal she has had all along the first books has been ignored and changed to a dreamlike one... to have peace and end slavery on lands where that's the main income source.



I do not hate her though, but I don't love her character as I once did.


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If you want to talk about honor, would it be honor for him to sacrafice 12.000 lives (that is amount of men Robb has?) only because Robb thinks he can win this war?

But that's exactly what he did, the only difference is all these people (apart from those loyal to Roose, that is) were sacrificed at the Red Wedding aftermath, Ruby Ford and Duskendale. Whatever Robb would do with his war after he retook the North, they would obviously still have much better chance to survive than when they were massacred because of Roose's betrayals. Bolton definitely has qualities that can make him likeable to some extent, but telling he has some honour or implying there is any altruism in him seems to be just plain wrong.

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I did't want to say he is honorable or best man in Westeros,I dont even want to say he is not evil,my point is his action resulted in peace, I wanted to say that sometimes honor doesent matter, sometimes honor is much worse.Look I don't want to say Roose Bolton is man I would like to have as my lord or close to me in any other way but I'm saying I can understand why he did it. Also, I think he didn't kill all of Robbs men? In my opinion war was already lost, you can notice in chapters with Arya how much deaths this war causes even if you ignore armies and soldiers. He did end the war, he did brought the peace and fought Iron Islanders,he probably didnt care about civilians we all understand that. But peace was aftermath of Red Weeding.



We also don't know if Robb would retake The North, we knew the plan but we can't know if it will work. Honestly he had 12.000 men, maybe few thousands more with Freys, lets give him a good round number of 20.000 (just for example), he would need to fight Iron Islanders for nice amount of time because as we know North is big and fighting on the neck takes time and sacrifice. Then he would still need to fight The Reach and The Westerlands and maybe Dorne even The Vale depending on what Littlefinger decides. It was a lost war the moment Cat came with Robb. :)


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Many characters have an arc of sorts - starting out unlikeable, but learning and growing as people and ending up likeable. Or, further insight into their motivations leads to better understanding and sympathy with the character. Jaime is one, Sansa is another, The Hound yet another. I never thought I'd end up liking The Hound, but there you go. I sort of like Jaime now, and he now appears to have some remorse about what he did to Bran. Let's hope he doesn't relapse into bad child-killer Jaime again.



Other characters start out likeable and end the same way, but unfortunately these aren't as complex - e.g. Robb, Catelyn. These guys are "mostly good" and are like that throughout the books.


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I never cared for Jaime's character and reading Bran's chapters were always a chore. That's changed now though Jaime has really grown on me and Bran's chapters are no longer "I'm broken, i can't walk... I'm broken, blah blah blah".


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Dany: She was SO in the wrong with Jorah and in such an unsympathetic way. She really believes she is entitled to everyones blind loyalty from their birth (even if that's decades before she was a twinkle in her parents eye) just because of her blood, it's enraging. But of course it's okay to abandon her older brother (and therefore surely rightful king for all Jorah or anyone knows) as soon as she and her man run into trouble with him. But how could anyone not be loyal to her from before meeting her until forever. Euch, She's mad and cruel and entitled and just so freaking full of herself. She's everything that's wrong with royalty. I'd like to change my name to fthequeen. :) Hopefully she'll be a foe and not one of the heroes in the end. Just bring your dragons over, thanks.



Jaime: I heard that he was going to win over readers when I was starting the first book (and show) and was kind of outraged. Never will I forgive him pushing Bran EVER! And then this disgusting murder of Ned's men. He was such a c. But of course it worked a little. He is funny, interesting and saving Brienne was pretty damn awesome, what can you do. (Btw I was always on his side about the whole Kingslaying business. Ned and Robert drove me crazy when they were judgemental about that.)


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But of course it's okay to abandon her older brother (and therefore surely rightful king for all Jorah or anyone knows) as soon as she and her man run into trouble with him.

But he threatened her life and her child's life! I love my extended family, but if they ever started threatening me or my kids with a weapon I think I'd be cutting them loose. She should have cut him off earlier, anyway, given the way she'd been treated by him. Besides, there was no way Drogo would tolerate being challenged in that way in front of his court, even if she had put a good word in for him. Viserys basically signed his own death warrant, it wasn't Dany's doing.

But how could anyone not be loyal to her from before meeting her until forever.

But she simply exiled Jorah, she didn't imprison or execute him. I don't know what you expect her to do. It's not like she can trust him now, and to keep him as an adviser she would have to trust him. You can't force yourself to trust someone, people have to earn their trust. And if she can't trust him... well, he's out. I think she was as merciful as she could be in this instance.

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But he threatened her life and her child's life! I love my extended family, but if they ever started threatening me or my kids with a weapon I think I'd be cutting them loose. She should have cut him off earlier, anyway, given the way she'd been treated by him. Besides, there was no way Drogo would tolerate being challenged in that way in front of his court, even if she had put a good word in for him. Viserys basically signed his own death warrant, it wasn't Dany's doing.

Oh I perfectly understand why Dany and Drogo acted the way they did. I never held that against them. Just saying with the blind loyalty she expected from Jorah from before she ever met him, (His "betrayal" was seeking Viserys and Dany out as a spy instead of because they're the one true royal family any knight should fight for, was it not?) how was he not honor bound to kill Drogo for murdering his king? How can she allow for Jorah do decide that Viserys is a crazy fool and shouldn't sit on the throne, but she can't allow for Jorah not to feverently trust in her right to rule the world before ever meeting her. So much so, he would never even talk behind her back. It makes no sense.

If she thinks her blood entitles her to loyalty, completely independedly from her personality and actions, then would have to count for Viserys as well. But I honestly don't care for characters who feel that way. She can go to hell with Stannis.

But she simply exiled Jorah, she didn't imprison or execute him. I don't know what you expect her to do. It's not like she can trust him now, and to keep him as an adviser she would have to trust him. You can't force yourself to trust someone, people have to earn their trust. And if she can't trust him... well, he's out. I think she was as merciful as she could be in this instance.

Unbelievably she even thinks she would have to right to execute him. After he redeemed himself by winning the city, just because he was not groveling enough. That was her problem, that he wasn't groveling enough after going through hell for her. Of course she can trust him. He always looked out for her best interest and even stopped his contact with Varys because he decided on his own to be completely loyal to her. What the hell could be more trustworthy? Someone who was already loyal to her crazy father?

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If she thinks her blood entitles her to loyalty, completely independedly from her personality and actions, then would have to count for Viserys as well. But I honestly don't care for characters who feel that way. She can go to hell with Stannis.

Betraying a king/queen is tantamount to betraying the state, and therefore is treason, so technically she could have him executed as an example to others, if she thought he deserved it. But I think it's pretty clear that she releases him (and does not execute him) precisely because she doesn't feel that he deserves it, and possibly thinks that Jorah may be feeling remorse. Despite that, she can no longer keep him as an advisor because she no longer is fully confident in him. I really don't know what you expect. She may well personally forgive his betrayal, but that doesn't mean she must continue to place matters of state in his hands. If you're betrayed by someone, you can't force yourself to have confidence in them in future, you either do or you don't. Trust isn't a some sort of right, it's something people must earn. I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect her to continue trusting him.

And again - when people betray you, everything they've done in the past comes into question. You say "of course she can trust him" based on what he's done in the past - but a mole/spy will always do things to earn someone's trust. How can she be sure that it wasn't all arranged to dupe her? Or that he didn't risk his neck just to earn her trust and get her guard down? You say he stopped his contact with Varys - but how can she be sure of that now? She can't. Grovelling doesn't come into it, no amount of grovelling is going to earn someone's trust.

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Loyalty also has to be earned and Dany got Jorah's loyalty after she proved to deserve it in his opinion. Before she just had his protection. Where is the part where he did something wrong?



(I actually think he did things wrong, like kiss her, but that's a different topic)



And again:


Telling Varys about the whereabouts and going ons of a little girl in exile, when the girl is Daenerys Tagerean = treason


Pouring liquid gold on the next king in Tagarean succession = not treason



It makes no sense.



Jorah is hardly that hard to work out. You and me and everyone knows that he is an enthusiastic follower and knight for Dany. Whether Dany is or would be a good queen is way harder to predict. So actually for Jorah to trust Dany is much more to ask for than for Dany to trust Jorah.


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Loyalty also has to be earned and Dany got Jorah's loyalty after she proved to deserve it in his opinion. Before she just had his protection. Where is the part where he did something wrong?

Of course loyalty has to be earned. But no-one's forcing him to stay with Dany. He's on his own now, he doesn't have to be loyal to anyone.

If you run a store, and you've caught your cashier stealing from the till, you'd be pretty gracious if you fired them without calling the police. The thief ought to be thankful if they got off without a criminal record. I think it'd be unreasonable to expect you to keep them as your cashier, no matter how sorry they were.

Where is the part where he did something wrong?

I'd say the part where he was spying on her and passing info on to her enemies.

Pouring liquid gold on the next king in Tagarean succession = not treason

It wasn't by her command.

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Jaime, of course.


And I've always liked Sansa, but she goes from strength to strength in ASOS I think.



I really liked Jon Snow's development in this book too.



Oh! And ASOS is where I began to enjoy Dany's chapters for the first time. I found her boring in the first two books, especially ACOK.


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The first one I would say is Jaime Lannister,but I actually liked him before the third book.I dont know particularly why but I somehow felt he is a good man deep inside,not a characteristics of Kingslayer.OTOH I changed my opinion on Varys, I have never liked him but after this book I started to understand and like him more.Maybe even Davos is the person I really like from Dragonstone, not Stannis.


And finally Tormund,I really fall in love with him :D



Then there are characters I hate even more than before SoS.That is Sansa Stark (oh GOD!) and Bran Stark a bit.


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Walder Frey, tought he was just some old grumpy Lord. Turns out he is someone you shouldn't cross, he will throw his revenge up trough your ass, sweet.


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