Gender and Power in Cersei's & Dany's story lines

[Lyanna Stark]

This is a spin off based on the discussion appearing in the latest "Confessions....say what?" thread since this discussion is off topic in that thread.

I really disagree with the bolded part. Cersei does have a position which grants her power, that of Queen Regent and she practically rules for long periods of time. Ofcourse it would be harder for any woman (compared to a man) to rule in 99% of the cases in Westeros from any position because of the society's norms... But Cersei's failures does not happen because she is a woman but because she is incompetent.

If she was a man (assuming exact same character traits) (s)he might be viewed with more respect which would make his/her job easier... But since (s)he would still be psychotic with almost zero skills who are useful in the game of thrones (s)he would still make a mess out of things. If another woman was in her place (Dany, Catelyn, Lady Mormont, Margaery, Lady Olenna... almost any woman in the series) she could have ruled much more efficiently.

Cersei's position as Queen Regent is not a simple one. Throughout the series we hear of no woman who ruled the Seven Kingdoms. Not in her own right nor as Queen Regent. Hence Cersei is in many ways unique and often her unpleasant personality hides that she also meets with a lot of gender specific problems. This is why I think the comment above is inherently contradictory in that it allows for women having a harder time to rule than men, but puts all the failures Cersei experiences as completely disconnected from her gender.

Had Cersei been born a man, she would have been the heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin's heir. She is older than Jaime and would have been first in line. That, alone, would have been a huge step up on power. She would as heir had received a better education than making drawings of herself and Rhaegar on dragon back and very likely Tywin would have taken Cersei under his wing to teach his son what was needed of the next Lord of Lannister.

Then we also have the fact that Cersei would have been taught to fight, and she would not have been bartered off to Robert Baratheon.

As we discussed in the Jon and Dany learning to lead thread, Dany tries to rule without having almost any education or training, while Jon starts out in a better position, having enjoyed the tutelage of Jeor Mormont, Ygritte, Mance, Ned Stark and Maester Aemon. He's not exactly well prepared, but compared to Dany who's mainly been taught random stuff by Viserys and then adviced by Jorah Mormont who at the same time betrayed her, she's had a far poorer start and her lack of training is apparent. Cersei finds herself in a similar position as Dany. She has had no tutors apart from Tywin at a distance and court gossip. She's not allowed on the Small Council until Robert dies. Until then, Cersei has no political power what so ever. She rules alone very briefly before Tyrion arrives in late AGOT/early ACOK, but even then her power is undermined by Joffrey/Littlefinger. Once Tyrion arrives, he completely undermines her. In ASOS Tywin is the real power. Once Tywin is dead, the realm is more or less in chaos and Cersei, despite not wanting to acknowledge it has to rely on the Tyrells to a large degree.

I do think had Cersei been born a man, her starting position would have been different, and the methods she had at her disposal would have been more refined.

There's something curious about Dany's power. Having dragons goes back to the same "might makes right" that allows the damn patriarchy to institutionalize itself in the first place. I realize that Dany's being a slip of a girl without "badass" physical tactics, but with this very big stick, subverts the usual execution of "might makes right" in terms of gender, but I think she's promoting the same underlying ideal in much the same way that Cersei is criticized for. Of course their intentions differ, which undoubtedly explains why one is taken more positively than the other. I'm not sure what I think about this. This could probably be a whole thread in itself (the construction of Dany's power)-- and probably doesn't belong in the confessions thread, lol.

I agree that Dany has a very large stick and that she didn't realise at first that she is utilising the same "might makes right". However I think one of the reason I think she wallows in Meereen in ADWD is because she is starting to realise that she is not completely positive in her stance towards that sort of power. She refers to herself as a monster, so she certainly realises that having that very large stick is a difficult position, morally.

[jons nissa]

Had Cersei been born a man, she would have been the heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin's heir. She is older than Jaime and would have been first in line. That, alone, would have been a huge step up on power. She would as heir had received a better education than making drawings of herself and Rhaegar on dragon back and very likely Tywin would have taken Cersei under his wing to teach his son what was needed of the next Lord of Lannister.

Then we also have the fact that Cersei would have been taught to fight, and she would not have been bartered off to Robert Baratheon.

had cersei been born a man, she would have indeed been educated differently by tywin. however, she would only be lord of lannister. she still would have been bartered off in a marriage that would be advantageous to tywin and house lannister as all noble born men in westeros are and the only way she would have been able to sit on the iron throne would be through a rebellious war such as the one robert fought against the targaryens. none of which would guarantee that she would have been a good ruler or a stronger player of the game as we saw with robert's reign.

[Winter's Knight]

W00t!

I think that Cersei actually has decent ideas when it comes to ruling but her shoddy execution and charming manners tend to throw a wrench in the works.

Take her decision to re-arm the faith: from her point of view this had several advantages. It clears the city of Sparrows, frees up knights and lords from patrolling the King's Road and provides safe escort for the smallfolk. If she had refused, the Faith would not have blessed Tommen's rule and they still would have had all those Sparrows, now actively hostile to the Crown. It's hard to think of another way out that doesn't involve bloodshed.

Similarly, her dealings with the IB: she told them-albeit rudely-that the realm was involved in a protracted civil war and would continue the payments once it ended. And if she had had one decent advisor in her Council whp could have asked the IB to perhaps increase the interest rates in return-well it looks even better.

[Kanon]

W00t!

I think that Cersei actually has decent ideas when it comes to ruling but her shoddy execution and charming manners tend to throw a wrench in the works.

Take her decision to re-arm the faith: from her point of view this had several advantages. It clears the city of Sparrows, frees up knights and lords from patrolling the King's Road and provides safe escort for the smallfolk. If she had refused, the Faith would not have blessed Tommen's rule and they still would have had all those Sparrows, now actively hostile to the Crown. It's hard to think of another way out that doesn't involve bloodshed.

Maybe rearming the Faith wasnt such a bad idea. Cersei's downfall came because she decided to destroy Marg, if she hadnt done that the Faith would be a great ally against Stannis and a good way to keep the realm safe from random criminals.

[Lyanna Stark]

had cersei been born a man, she would have indeed been educated differently by tywin. however, she would only be lord of lannister. she still would have been bartered off in a marriage that would be advantageous to tywin and house lannister as all noble born men in westeros are and the only way she would have been able to sit on the iron throne would be through a rebellious war such as the one robert fought against the targaryens. none of which would guarantee that she would have been a good ruler or a stronger player of the game as we saw with robert's reign.

While arranged marriages certainly suck for both men and women, I do believe there are substantial evidence that shows how it sucks more for women (in general).

Case in point: Cersei/Robert, Lysa/Jon Arryn, Selyse/Stannis, Gregor Clegane/his dead wives, Walder Frey/anyone, Rhaella/Aerys.

Men also have more sexual freedom in that they can take lovers, go to whores and freely engage in marital rape should they wish to. Women have none of these options available to them as default.

[Winter's Knight]

Maybe rearming the Faith wasnt such a bad idea. Cersei's downfall came because she decided to destroy Marg, if she hadnt done that the Faith would be a great ally against Stannis and a good way to keep the realm safe from random criminals.

And she wouldn't have tried to destroy Marg if that ridiculous prophecy had not been there. :tantrum:

[Lady Sansa Stark]

For longer than a split second, I was convinced the title said ''Gendry''. And now I'll read the OP.

[Kanon]

And she wouldn't have tried to destroy Marg if that ridiculous prophecy had not been there. :tantrum:

Yeah, the prophecy is my greatest problem with her storyline in AFFC, I hope it isnt true or its someone other than Tyrion or Jaime who kills her (Loras or Stannis)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I think Cersei is more competent than people give her credit for. The problem is, as stated above, she never had the training to wield it.

Even more, she never thought she would have the power. Thus, she makes mistakes like putting yes men on the Small Council so she could hear what she wanted to hear rather than what she needed to hear. Her insecurities drive her need. She NEEDS to prove she can do it. Thus, she picks yes men who tell her she is doing a good job to fulfill that psychological need to prove herself.

I agree with WK about the Faith. It was a short term boon that may lead to a long term detriment, but there was little choice. It solved a lot of problems.

As for the IB, I think her rudeness was pretty much the main thing that hurt her. Seriously, as fun as it is, you don't tell people you owe a lot of money to to go fuck themselves and you'll pay them when you pay them. Especially when said bank has a habit of funding people to overthrow the debtors. This pretty much guarantees Stannis/Shireen will be a threat later on.

I disagree with the general feelings about Marg here. Cersei was correct in going after her. Marg was at the VERY LEAST a part of the plot that murdered her son, if not the actual poisoner herself. Cersei doesn't know this, but she does recognize that Marg is an actual threat when most people don't. The fact is, the Tyrells want to rule. Honestly, I believe Renly was their puppet and that they would have killed Joffery even if he was a decent person if they believed they could not control him (this is just personal opinion of course). Cersei realized this before anyone. Even Kevan was starting to realize it before he was killed.

Now, of course, her plan was bad, but that is a different story entirely.

EDIT:

Yeah, the prophecy is my greatest problem with her storyline in AFFC, I hope it isnt true or its someone other than Tyrion or Jaime who kills her (Loras or Stannis)

But they are both younger brothers so that fulfills it! ;)

[Winter's Knight]

I disagree with the general feelings about Marg here. Cersei was correct in going after her. She was at the VERY LEAST a part of the plot that murdered her son, if not the actual poisoner herself. Cersei doesn't know this, but she does recognize that Marg is an actual threat when most people don't. The fact is, the Tyrells want to rule. Honestly, I believe Renly was their puppet and that they would have killed Joffery even if he was a decent person if they believed they could not control him (this is just personal opinion of course). Cersei realized this before anyone. Even Kevan was starting to realize it before he was killed.

Now, of course, her plan was bad, but that is a different story entirely.

Cersei had strong suspicions about the Tyrells. When the guard in the Black Cells (that was actually Varys in disguise) was reported missing, they found a coin from the reign of the Gardener kings in his room. Olenna uses those coins to pay off tradesmen because they weigh half as much as present day coins.

[Kolantero]

This is why I think the comment above is inherently contradictory in that it allows for women having a harder time to rule than men, but puts all the failures Cersei experiences as completely disconnected from her gender.

I did thought of these issues when i was writing my post and what you are saying here is 100% valid. I chose to make that disconnection as you call it because:

1) Even a very minor change in a person's life can make him/her turn into a completely different person.

2) (1) means that it can be applied to virtually every character and not only in connection with their gender. For example:

a) Joffrey might not have been such a prick if Robert was a better father

b ) Ramsay might not have been a flaying psycho if he wasn't a bastard/ if his father was someone like Ned/ if X horrible unknown to us thing in his life happened

c) Theon would most likely not be that arrogant betraying jackass (pre-Reek) if he wasn't bullied by his brothers as a child

d) A gender-related one: Sam would have it much better and would probably turn out a very different character if he was a woman since Randyll would not torture him to "make him a man"

e) Robb might have been a much worse person if he had different parents raising him

f) Gregor Clegane might have been a very nice guy if he didn't have those headaches

g) Sandor Clegane would certainly be a very different person if his brother did not push his face into the fire

Etc.

This means that we can't really judge any character from the books because everyone has one or more "what if..." life-altering events or states. Also keep in mind that if in your judgment of Cersei you use this argument (which isn't unreasonable at all, it's a very strong and valid argument imo) then you would have to use it for other characters and non-gender related issues as well.

3) The possibilities of what the result of a minor change and ofcourse a major change like Cersei's hypothetical change of gender (especially in such male-dominated societies as the ones in ASOIAF) are literally endless. There are so many factors involved that It is impossible to examine a realistic alternative possibility, that is one that takes into account all the things you are bringing up here:

Had Cersei been born a man, she would have been the heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin's heir. She is older than Jaime and would have been first in line. That, alone, would have been a huge step up on power. She would as heir had received a better education than making drawings of herself and Rhaegar on dragon back and very likely Tywin would have taken Cersei under his wing to teach his son what was needed of the next Lord of Lannister.

Then we also have the fact that Cersei would have been taught to fight, and she would not have been bartered off to Robert Baratheon.

...mostly because it is not one, it's billions of such possibilities. The only safe conclusion (i believe) we can reach by bringing that dimension to the conversation is what you say here:

I do think had Cersei been born a man, her starting position would have been different, and the methods she had at her disposal would have been more refined.

....but i don't see any way to go any deeper.

I don't think any sane person would dispute the words you said in the quote above or even its generalization form as in:

"All other factors being equal (social status, some special circumstances etc) then in 99% of cases in the ASOIAF universe you would have better luck/resources/ "head start"/chances for success etc if you were a man."

As we discussed in the Jon and Dany learning to lead thread, Dany tries to rule without having almost any education or training, while Jon starts out in a better position, having enjoyed the tutelage of Jeor Mormont, Ygritte, Mance, Ned Stark and Maester Aemon. He's not exactly well prepared, but compared to Dany who's mainly been taught random stuff by Viserys and then adviced by Jorah Mormont who at the same time betrayed her, she's had a far poorer start and her lack of training is apparent. Cersei finds herself in a similar position as Dany. She has had no tutors apart from Tywin at a distance and court gossip. She's not allowed on the Small Council until Robert dies. Until then, Cersei has no political power what so ever. She rules alone very briefly before Tyrion arrives in late AGOT/early ACOK, but even then her power is undermined by Joffrey/Littlefinger. Once Tyrion arrives, he completely undermines her. In ASOS Tywin is the real power. Once Tywin is dead, the realm is more or less in chaos and Cersei, despite not wanting to acknowledge it has to rely on the Tyrells to a large degree.

I agree and i acknowledged these factors (generally not with the detail you wrote them) in my reply-post to Newstar in the "confessions" thread, where i also put the parameter "assuming same character and skills" because, for the reasons i said above, i don't see how a deeper analysis can be made with all those factors and endless possibilities.

So basicly when i say "if Cersei was a man" i am talking about the (completely unrealistic) hypothetical situation that Cersei would be exactly and 100% the same person as she is now (character traits etc), with the only difference been that she would be man and be treated by others as one.

In other words i am eliminating the current misogynistic obstacles of ASOIAF society, not the effects previous misogynistic obstacles had on Cersei's character because that would be impossible to calculate (aside from that broad generalization you said above, that she would have more methods at her disposal etc).

[straits]

W00t!

I think that Cersei actually has decent ideas when it comes to ruling but her shoddy execution and charming manners tend to throw a wrench in the works.

Take her decision to re-arm the faith: from her point of view this had several advantages. It clears the city of Sparrows, frees up knights and lords from patrolling the King's Road and provides safe escort for the smallfolk. If she had refused, the Faith would not have blessed Tommen's rule and they still would have had all those Sparrows, now actively hostile to the Crown. It's hard to think of another way out that doesn't involve bloodshed.

Similarly, her dealings with the IB: she told them-albeit rudely-that the realm was involved in a protracted civil war and would continue the payments once it ended. And if she had had one decent advisor in her Council whp could have asked the IB to perhaps increase the interest rates in return-well it looks even better.

For the first bolded part - she does have a ruler's sense in some cases, but it is her motivation which makes her flawed. Everyone is a competitor trying to tear her down, from her PoV. If it were caution that would be fine, but she is severely paranoid. It's more of a character issue which leads back to some other arguments.

For the second bolded part - she drives off all competent advisers for fear of competition. She doesn't want advisers in the first place. She wants drones. She has a problem with delegation that someone like Tywin never did.

I think she uses the position of her gender in the existing society quite well, though.

[butterbumps!]

Thanks for starting this, Lyanna!

So, a huge question for me on this subject is whether there is a conceivable way for the characters to actually overturn the patriarchy without using the methods that enable its very existence.

Cersei feels victimized by the patriarchy, but she simultaneously wants to be the patriarchy. Dany believes herself entitled to rule over Westeros due to patriarchal customs, which set up power as a hereditary right. Further she has a big stick, so that should her appeal to custom fail, she can use the same logic of empowerment that Cersei goes in terms of subverting the gender role, but still promoting the same construction of power. I think that the end of DwD shows us that Dany intends to be even more entrenched in the "might makes right" mentality given her embrace of her "monster" and committing herself to "take what's hers" (apparently "hers" based on the strongly patriarchal hereditary customs).

Both the "might makes right" and hereditary power constructions promote truly awful leadership situations, and they are exactly the methods used to keep the patriarchy in motion in the first place (and if it overturns this into a "matriarchy" I'd be no more pleased by the gender division, as I am already cautious enough about the nature of these power constructions).

I guess an initial question is what could an alternative course practically be for a woman to hold power in her own right that does not resort to small subversions of inheritance or holding a bigger stick? Dany gained support as a mother figure, but chose the stick at least for the meantime. Of interest perhaps is Marg's efforts at cultivating the love of the smallfolk, as well as Renly's similar appeal, the QoT's machinations, the game Sansa is learning from LF (which, I hate to admit is an alternative-- or more like a perversion-- of the patriarchal system). It seems that a sharp mind and popular support are potential paths that actually would subvert-- truly subvert--the construction of power Cersei and Dany are currently trying to navigate and have ultimately embodied (at this point).

[UnbentFury]

I did thought of these issues when i was writing my post and what you are saying here is 100% valid. I chose to make that disconnection as you call it because:

1) Even a very minor change in a person life can make him/her turn into a completely different person.

2) (1) means that it can be applied to virtually every character and not only in connection with their gender. For example:

a) Joffrey might not have been such a prick if Robert was a better father

b ) Ramsay might not have been a flaying psycho if he wasn't a bastard/ if his father was someone like Ned/ if X horrible unknown to us thing in his life happened

c) Theon would most likely not be that arrogant jackass (pre-Reek) if he wasn't bullied by his brothers as a child

d) A gender-related one: Sam would have it much better and would probably turn out a very different character if he was a woman since Randyll would torture him to "make him a man"

e) Robb might have been a much worse person if he had different parents raising him

f) Gregor Clegane might have been a very nice guy if he didn't have those headaches

g) Sandor Clegane would certainly be a very different person if his brother did not push his face into the fire

Etc.

This means that we can't really judge any character from the books because everyone has one or more "what if..." life-altering events or states. Also keep in mind that if in your judgment of Cersei you use this argument (which isn't unreasonable at all, it's a very strong and valid argument imo) then you would have to use it for other characters and non-gender related issues as well.

3) The possibilities of what the result of a minor change and ofcourse a major change like Cersei's hypothetical change of gender (especially in such male-dominated societies as the ones in ASOIAF) are literally endless. There are so many factors involved that It is impossible to examine a realistic alternative possibility, that is one that takes into account all the things you are bringing up here:

...mostly because it is not one, it's billions of such possibilities. The only safe conclusion (i believe) we can reach by bringing that dimension to the conversation is what you say here:

....but i don't see any way to go any deeper.

I don't think any sane person would dispute the words you said in the quote above or even its generalization form as in:

"All other factors being equal (social status, some special circumstances etc) then in 99% of cases in the ASOIAF universe you would have better luck/resources/ "head start"/chances for success etc if you were a man."

I agree and i acknowledged these factors (generally not with the detail you wrote them) in my reply-post to Newstar in the "confessions" thread, where i also put the parameter "assuming same character and skills" because, for the reasons i said above, i don't see how a deeper analysis can be made with all those factors and endless possibilities.

To give an extreme example, if Cersei was a man but still arrogant as arrogant as the real Cersei (s)he could just have died when (s)he was eight doing something stupid/risky like climbing the rocks at Casterly Rock or something similar.

I love all of your responses to this subject Kolantero.

[Winter's Knight]

Bumps Marg and Renly may both appeal to the masses, but it doesn't change the fact that they obtain power through a big stick as well-namely the double pronged attack involving the Reach's food and the Reach's army. Their appeal to the masses is effectively the sugar that makes it easier to swallow-just as chivalry makes the idea of being a noble lady easier to bear.

[butterbumps!]

Bumps Marg and Renly may both appeal to the masses, but it doesn't change the fact that they obtain power through a big stick as well-namely the double pronged attack involving the Reach's food and the Reach's army. Their appeal to the masses is effectively the sugar that makes it easier to swallow-just as chivalry makes the idea of being a noble lady easier to bear.

I agree, and would add that Marg is also looking to cement a dynasty as well. I think that Marg- in totality- is not an "feminist" example in the sense that was discussed on the Confessions thread; that is, she's not thinking critically about gender roles and she's seeking to be higher up in the existing system of power that typically subjugates women. I think her appeal to the smallfolk has something to it, though. Dany was able to gain a great deal of power (or at least support) from the masses, that helped to further define her as powerful. I'm not sure where I stand on the big stick issue, because practically speaking, a leader must be able to defend their people, and this kind of gets into the calculus that goes on when men choose who to follow. I haven't fully fleshed this out, so I might not be making enough sense yet, lol.

[Winter's Knight]

I agree, and would add that Marg is also looking to cement a dynasty as well. I think that Marg- in totality- is not an "feminist" example in the sense that was discussed on the Confessions thread; that is, she's not thinking critically about gender roles and she's seeking to be higher up in the existing system of power that typically subjugates women. I think her appeal to the smallfolk has something to it, though. Dany was able to gain a great deal of power (or at least support) from the masses, that helped to further define her as powerful. I'm not sure where I stand on the big stick issue, because practically speaking, a leader must be able to defend their people, and this kind of gets into the calculus that goes on when men choose who to follow. I haven't fully fleshed this out, so I might not be making enough sense yet, lol.

Dany did go the whole messiah route but again, she was acclaimed as a leader in her own right because of her "big stick".

Take Jon for instance: his lack of a "big stick" defense landed him a job as a professional pincushion.

Mance is able to obtain leadership through merit but his society operates on a fundamentally different level. In Westeros to make changes, you need to be in power and to be in power, you need a stick.

And until someone invents a printing press, I can't figure out another option apart from this distasteful idea of a benevolent dictator setting hir people to rights.

[The Sleeper]

This is a spin off based on the discussion appearing in the latest "Confessions....say what?" thread since this discussion is off topic in that thread.

Cersei's position as Queen Regent is not a simple one. Throughout the series we hear of no woman who ruled the Seven Kingdoms. Not in her own right nor as Queen Regent. Hence Cersei is in many ways unique and often her unpleasant personality hides that she also meets with a lot of gender specific problems. This is why I think the comment above is inherently contradictory in that it allows for women having a harder time to rule than men, but puts all the failures Cersei experiences as completely disconnected from her gender.

Had Cersei been born a man, she would have been the heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin's heir. She is older than Jaime and would have been first in line. That, alone, would have been a huge step up on power. She would as heir had received a better education than making drawings of herself and Rhaegar on dragon back and very likely Tywin would have taken Cersei under his wing to teach his son what was needed of the next Lord of Lannister.

Then we also have the fact that Cersei would have been taught to fight, and she would not have been bartered off to Robert Baratheon.

As we discussed in the Jon and Dany learning to lead thread, Dany tries to rule without having almost any education or training, while Jon starts out in a better position, having enjoyed the tutelage of Jeor Mormont, Ygritte, Mance, Ned Stark and Maester Aemon. He's not exactly well prepared, but compared to Dany who's mainly been taught random stuff by Viserys and then adviced by Jorah Mormont who at the same time betrayed her, she's had a far poorer start and her lack of training is apparent. Cersei finds herself in a similar position as Dany. She has had no tutors apart from Tywin at a distance and court gossip. She's not allowed on the Small Council until Robert dies. Until then, Cersei has no political power what so ever. She rules alone very briefly before Tyrion arrives in late AGOT/early ACOK, but even then her power is undermined by Joffrey/Littlefinger. Once Tyrion arrives, he completely undermines her. In ASOS Tywin is the real power. Once Tywin is dead, the realm is more or less in chaos and Cersei, despite not wanting to acknowledge it has to rely on the Tyrells to a large degree.

I do think had Cersei been born a man, her starting position would have been different, and the methods she had at her disposal would have been more refined.

I agree that Dany has a very large stick and that she didn't realise at first that she is utilising the same "might makes right". However I think one of the reason I think she wallows in Meereen in ADWD is because she is starting to realise that she is not completely positive in her stance towards that sort of power. She refers to herself as a monster, so she certainly realises that having that very large stick is a difficult position, morally.

If all those things had happened, then she wouldn't be the Cersei we know and love. A certain context must be made in order for a comparison to be no one. A man with Cersei's skils and midset or Cersei with the obstacles posed to her gender somehow removed would have had an easier time until crisis struck then we would see the exact same thing.

The thing that is impossible to disregard is the detrimental effect the way she was treated has had on her character. Still, she is who she is regardless of how she came to be.

I don't get what the big deal is with the prophecy. There are perfectly realistic, mundane reasons to go after Margaery. They are not much of a mystery either. Margaery does in fact try to steal what Cersei has fought for her whole life. She is trying to further her family's influence on the throne, pretty much what Cersei had been doing with Robert.

The one thing I do agree with her is that she is Tywin with tits, but that just denotes the extremely low opinion I have of Tywin. The only difference is that Tywin was coward at heart and didn't go after his enemies, but bided his time to exact petty revenge.

[butterbumps!]

Dany did go the whole messiah route but again, she was acclaimed as a leader in her own right because of her "big stick".

Take Jon for instance: his lack of a "big stick" defense landed him a job as a professional pincushion.

Mance is able to obtain leadership through merit but his society operates on a fundamentally different level. In Westeros to make changes, you need to be in power and to be in power, you need a stick.

And until someone invents a printing press, I can't figure out another option apart from this distasteful idea of a benevolent dictator setting hir people to rights.

Mance is kind of an interesting case, though (and to some extent Drogo, though we don't know how he people really felt about him the way we do with Mance). With Mance, he didn't have an army as such and the physical aspect of personal ass-kickings didn't really have a "follow me or I'll destroy you" issue. It was more like a bizarre way of conducting an election (he clearly didn't kill the guys he fought, since the people he dueled are still alive; I think there were maybe 1 or 2 who wanted to fight to the death for some reason and Mance obliged). And a lot of the guys he dueled actually really like him, and at the least respect him not just for kicking their asses but his leadership abilities afterward. So a large part of his power comes from his accountability to his people, not just his ass kickings.

[The Sleeper]

Dany's rise to power goes beyond the standard feudal structure. Kings rule by the grace of god. Dany her followers is of a divine mythical nature.

Some aspects of it. Dany is the last descndant of a mythical lost land steeped in sorcery that ruled the world. Her legacy is stamped on her features.

Her first followers, the Dothraki see her emerging from a miracle. She defeats the decedant dark warlocks of the east burning their house. She frees the Unsullied and ohter slaves who now follow her around calling her mother. She forces Yunkai to capitulate and gathers more followers and there after taking Meereen. In days ending the ghiscari cities. At which point she occupies the pinnacle of the highest pyramid looking down at the world. It seems to me that Dany has a level of devotion and fanaticism among the freedmen who call her mother that goes beyond the obedience the smallfolk demonstrate to their lords. She does not need intermediarys and there is no need for strucure. You don't question the prophet.