When Jaime Met Brynden

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was actually skimming Jaime's Feast chapters looking for something else, and came across Jaime's meeting with the Blackfish outside of Riverrun.

It's an interesting conversation and it was fun to read it again after a longish time and see if I could pick up on some more subtext.

Basically, it's Brynden Tully throwing Jaime's lack of honor and his reputation back in his face. That's Jaime's sore spot and the Blackfish knows it, but I'm wondering if Tully wasn't also using it as diversionary tactic, bringing it up because he knew Jaime would dwell on it, and also using it as an excuse not to take Jaime's fairly reasonable terms.

For instance.

Jaime: "You hold Lady Sybelle Westerling and three of her children. I'll return your nephew in exchange for them."

Tully: "As you returned Lady Catelyn's daughters?" Hit Jaime's honor.

Absorbing the hit, Jaime: "An old woman and three children for your liege lord. That's a better bargain than you could have hoped for.

Tully: "You do not lack for gall, Kingslayer. Bargaining with oathbreakers is like building on quicksand, though. Cat should have known better than to trust the likes of you." Hit on Jaime's honor.

Jaime: "The promises I made to Lady Catelyn were wrung from me at swordpoint."

Tully: "And the oath you swore to Aerys?" Hit on Jaime's honor.

Jaime: "Aerys is no part of this. Will you exchange the Westerlings for Edmure?"

Tully: "No. My king entrusted his queen to my keeping, and I swore to keep her safe. I will not hand her over to a Frey noose."

Jaime: "The girl has been pardoned. No harm will come to her. You have my word on that."

Tully: "Your word of honor? Do you even know what honor is?" Hit on Jaime's honor.

Jaime: "I will swear any oath that you require."

Tully: "Spare me, Kingslayer." Hit on Jaime's honor.

It seems like Jaime is right here; Edmure as an individual is more valuable than the Westerlings, who have been pardoned anyway. He even tells the Blackfish that they won't hurt the Riverrun men if the castle yields. Brynden still says no and picks at Jaime's sense of honor at every opportunity; he uses Jaime's lack of honor as the excuse not to yield. I think there's something else at work here, and that Brynden is digging on Jaime as a way to divert attention from it.

It's a good deal. Brynden has no "good" reason to keep the Westerlings, with Edmure's life at stake. Unless there's something in the castle more valuable than Edmure. The repeated use of Jaime's reputation as an excuse not to make a deal just smacks of a diversion to me — it succeeds in making Jaime dwell on his reputation instead of wondering why the hell Edmure is so dead-set on keeping the Westerlings. Jaime suggests that Brynden can join the Night's Watch, and Tully suggests that Jon himself is dishonorable. Might he know, in fact, that Jon is named in Robb's will, and be feinting here?

Further on in the convo, Jaime says that Robb's kingdom died with him. Brynden says no, look and you'll see the direwolf banner. For whom is the banner flying? Robb's dead, Bran and Rickon and Arya are presumed dead and Sansa is legally a Lannister and was probably disinherited. Rather than ask this question, Jaime just rattles off the other riverlords who've already surrendered.

In the end, though, the Blackfish escapes, and Edmure looks "entirely too pleased with himself," despite, Jaime says, looking forward to lifelong imprisonment. Why is Edmure so smug? Why did the Blackfish make such a huge point of telling Jaime that he wouldn't give up Robb's queen, only to flee and leave the family there anyway?

I normally make Jaime's last Feast chapter the centerpiece of any analysis here, since it takes place after the "action" is over, but I think Brynden and Jaime's dialogue is pretty interesting on its own, based on what it could be suggesting.

[LeoSuperstar]

Is this about the narrow hips thing?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is this about the narrow hips thing?

It's an extension of that, yeah.

[armidil0]

More evidence that Jeyne is pregnant?

I'm happy about that. I like the theory, but I also hate how Rickon would be left to the wayside if it turned out to be a male.

[sillent]

Hmm interesting.. The mention of the direwolf banner is what really gets to me- its similar to Ned & The Kingsguard at the TOJ.

About the whole narrow hips thing, I recall watching a youtube video of Elio I believe where he mentioned how the narrow hips thing was an oversight and not intended?

[LeoSuperstar]

While its true that you present your case quite well, most of what you are pointing also have trivial explanations:

Edmure looking too pleased with himself might be due the fact that he screwed Jaime while technically doing what he demanded.

The Blackfish flying Robb's banners is an equivalent of Dondarion saying that the BwB is composed of Robert's men.

Etc. But talking about Jeyne's supposed escape, Im of the opinion that it didnt happened. The hips didn't changed, two different people described it.

[sifth]

you have a point, though that conversation could just be Brynden being awesome, like always, ha ha ha

[Summer is Ending]

The Blackfish swore an oath to keep Jeyne safe.

If you think she isn't with him than you think the Blackfish is a punkass like the Kingslayer that keeps only those oaths he finds convenient.

[TheWizard]

About Edmure being all smug. I think he has been captive for too long to know Jeyne is pregnant. Although that dosnt mean much. Its obvious Blackfish and Edmure made a plan. It also dosnt make sense on why the Blackfish would leave after holding out for so long. I always felt like we are going to learn alot more about Robb from the Blackfish.

[The Sunset King]

About a week ago I read this converstation again when trying to see the chronology of some things. Whenever reading this, I get the impression that the Blackfish simply will not accept any terms that Jaime presents. Seems like he would find a way to reject them from anyone else's mouth as well. I agree that Brynden Tully appears to be resorting to diversionary tactics, though I think that what he says matches very well with what his normal behavior/manner of speech would be like anyway. It seems like he is both a fight to the bitter end kind of guy and is trying to ensure the continuation/preservation of something.

Although I am skeptical of the idea that Jeyne will produce a child for Robb, it seems quite possible that Brynden is placing a high value on protecting her through confusing the Lannisters. Some of the differences in the descriptions of Jeyne given by Catelyn vs those of Jaime might be attributable to her developing an intense depression, though.

As to what he says about Jon two possibilities seem to exist:

1. He is throwing smoke to distract from Jon. (Jon was named heir)

2. He actually imbibed some of Catelyn's views about Jon, perhaps uncritically accepting what she presents to him in many cases. (Either he does not know who the heir is or someone else was named as Robb's heir)

With all the silence about the will, it is hard to tell which interpretation to prefer.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I really don't want Jeyne to be pregnant. It's just to big a complication.

[kephv]

I think you're over analyzing it. Who's the direwolf flying for? For the leftover loyality he still feels for Robb, to piss off the Lannisters. It's the only thing he has left, as evidenced by his converstation with Jaime.

[butterbumps!]

I think it's because a siege is deadly dull. Blackfish just wanted to see this stump of Jaime's and hear whatever excuses Jaime cared to offer up for his latest enormities.

Apple-- I think the banners comment has to do with the fact that the Stark cause will continue through Jon (in theory). I don't think Blackfish's jabs have a hidden agenda regarding pregnant Jeyne-- I think he has ample reason to be a jerk to Jaime because Jaime is Jaime. I think the fact that Sybell gave Jeyne abortifacients speaks against the theory that she's pregnant.

ETA: it's definitely confirmed that Jon is in Robb's will. That World of Ice and Fire app stated this in a way that's not really open to interpretation.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I still am under the illusion that the Blackfish went to fetch Jon. Alas, when he arrives Jon is in critical condition. :lol:

In all seriousness, I think Edmure and the Blackfish bet everything on the latter's escape. They might have a clever plan that they think could level the playing field in the future. I couldn't say for sure if it involves Jon or not, or if it's protecting Robb's theoretical baby, but the plan has to really be good for Edmure to be so smug about it. There'd be no smugness if the Blackfish escaped just because.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Oh I think the Blackfish went to the Vail.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

About Edmure being all smug. I think he has been captive for too long to know Jeyne is pregnant. Although that dosnt mean much. Its obvious Blackfish and Edmure made a plan. It also dosnt make sense on why the Blackfish would leave after holding out for so long. I always felt like we are going to learn alot more about Robb from the Blackfish.

He went into the castle to negotiate the surrender. This is when he would have learned about Jeyne being pregnant.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's because a siege is deadly dull. Blackfish just wanted to see this stump of Jaime's and hear whatever excuses Jaime cared to offer up for his latest enormities.

Apple-- I think the banners comment has to do with the fact that the Stark cause will continue through Jon (in theory). I don't think Blackfish's jabs have a hidden agenda regarding pregnant Jeyne-- I think he has ample reason to be a jerk to Jaime because Jaime is Jaime. I think the fact that Sybell gave Jeyne abortifacients speaks against the theory that she's pregnant.

I'd feel more convinced that Sybell gave Jeyne moon tea if it wasn't based solely on Sybell herself telling Jaime that she gave Jeyne moon tea.

[mcb]

The Blackfish might have been playing Jaime. OTOH, the Kingslayer was untrustworthy; and at that particular moment, Brynden faced the Kingslayer commanding an army of Freys. Can you imagine a worse combo? Ponzi and Madoff Mutual Fund, Ltd., maybe.

[butterbumps!]

I'd feel more convinced that Sybell gave Jeyne moon tea if it wasn't based solely on Sybell herself telling Jaime that she gave Jeyne moon tea.

This is the WoIaF app entry on Sybell Spicer:

"Sybell is the wife of Lord Gawen Westering, and granddaughter of the woman known at Lannisport as Maggy the Frog. Her husband is captured in the course of King Robb's campaign against the Lannisters. After Robb seizes the Crag, she plots with her brother, Ser Rolph, to trick Robb Stark into marrying her daughter Jeyne, this breaking his alliance with the Freys. Sybell then keeps her daughter well supplied with potions and possets that will keep her from conceiving, all the while claiming the opposite. Her brother is given Castamere as a reward, while she is promised a great marriage for her son."

I think this might give proof on the abortifacient issue, though it doesn't prove that she wasn't spirited away with Brynden.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is the WoIaF app entry on Sybell Spicer:

"Sybell is the wife of Lord Gawen Westering, and granddaughter of the woman known at Lannisport as Maggy the Frog. Her husband is captured in the course of King Robb's campaign against the Lannisters. After Robb seizes the Crag, she plots with her brother, Ser Rolph, to trick Robb Stark into marrying her daughter Jeyne, this breaking his alliance with the Freys. Sybell then keeps her daughter well supplied with potions and possets that will keep her from conceiving, all the while claiming the opposite. Her brother is given Castamere as a reward, while she is promised a great marriage for her son."

I think this might give proof on the abortifacient issue, though it doesn't prove that she wasn't spirited away with Brynden.

I get your point, but wouldn't this just be based on the story just up until now? Meaning, at this point we're led to believe that Sybell slipped Jeyne moon tea, so why would the WoIaF contradict that?