When Jaime Met Brynden

[butterbumps!]

I get your point, but wouldn't this just be based on the story just up until now? Meaning, at this point we're led to believe that Sybell slipped Jeyne moon tea, so why would the WoIaF contradict that?

It would be omitted or modified with something like "Sybell claims that she gave Jeyne moon tea." For example, in the Mance and Ramsay entries it says that the spearwives are all killed or captured as declarative statements, but then says "Ramsay claims he has also captured Mance" or something like that. Same with the Varys entry. It presents the story he told Tyrion of his cutting as truth, but then opens it up to interpretation when it says "Varys claims he hates magic."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It would be omitted or modified with something like "Sybell claims that she gave Jeyne moon tea." For example, in the Mance and Ramsay entries it says that the spearwives are all killed or captured as declarative statements, but then says "Ramsay claims he has also captured Mance" or something like that. Same with the Varys entry. It presents the story he told Tyrion of his cutting as truth, but then opens it up to interpretation when it says "Varys claims he hates magic."

Eh. I'll wait this one out, thanks. :P

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I still can't buy the narrow hips/wide hips thing as an oversight. Why include a description of the girl's hips at all from Jaime's POV if it didn't mean anything? Either have it be the same to confirm that it is Jeyne, or different to show it's not. Breasts get described a lot in this series, but hips? Not so much, so it sticks out when they are. However, I'm only about 50/50 on Jeyne being pregnant. Are we going to have a "Promise me, Blackfish"? IDK, but I could see the Blackfish getting Jeyne out safely, pregnant or no. I am really curious to find out where he pops up. The Vale? The Wall? Hmmmm.

But... I also got the feeling Blackfish was bored and wanted to have some verbal sparring with Jaime for the heck of it.

[LeoSuperstar]

I still can't buy the narrow hips/wide hips thing as an oversight. Why include a description of the girl's hips at all from Jaime's POV if it didn't mean anything? Either have it be the same to confirm that it is Jeyne, or different to show it's not. Breasts get described a lot in this series, but hips? Not so much, so it sticks out when they are. However, I'm only about 50/50 on Jeyne being pregnant. Are we going to have a "Promise me, Blackfish"? IDK, but I could see the Blackfish getting Jeyne out safely, pregnant or no. I am really curious to find out where he pops up. The Vale? The Wall? Hmmmm.

But... I also got the feeling Blackfish was bored and wanted to have some verbal sparring with Jaime for the heck of it.

But Catelyn and Jaime are different people with different standards. The fact that the hips are not the same in their POV does not, in any way, ponts to different girls.

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

The saddest thing about this conversation is that The Blackfish was one of Jaime's heroes when he was younger. And now he can't even get a sentence out without getting hammered about his honor.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But Catelyn and Jaime are different people with different standards. The fact that the hips are not the same in their POV does not, in any way, ponts to different girls.

But it's one extreme to the other. It's not like one sees narrow hips and one sees normal hips, or one sees wide hips and one sees normal hips. It's wide hips on one side and narrow hips on the other. That's pretty divergent. Catelyn also has a reason to notice Jeyne's hips; she's judging her ability to carry children. She'd also be the "harsher critic" of the two, with more at stake; if anything, Jaime should be the one to "overcompensate" the width, not Catelyn. Also, forget the different perspectives for a second, and ask why Jaime is noting this girl's hips at all. Kind of an odd thing to describe in that situation, no?

[MyLittleDirewolf]

The saddest thing about this conversation is that The Blackfish was one of Jaime's heroes when he was younger. And now he can't even get a sentence out without getting hammered about his honor.

Good point. I think it also adds to Jaime's character development, how he's tired of the whole Kingslayer thing. He used to be so cocky. Not that he was proud of it, but he took it in stride and let it be part of his BAMF reputation. Now he's become more like Sandor Clegane in the whole what does it mean to be a knight kind of thinking.

[Free Northman]

I just love that scene for the absolute disdain with which Brynden treats Jaime.

Whatever the deeper meaning - and I agree that Brynden knows Jon is heir - having the perpeyually smug Jaime Lannister slapped down like that was priceless to me.

He gets no respect from Brynden, because by the standards of men like Brynden, Eddard, Jon Arryn etc he deserves none.

[Melonica Stormborn]

Agree with the above post. That chapter was amazing even without attaching significant meaning to the Blackfish's words. Just seeing/hearing him say it is gold already. :D

[LeoSuperstar]

But it's one extreme to the other. It's not like one sees narrow hips and one sees normal hips, or one sees wide hips and one sees normal hips. It's wide hips on one side and narrow hips on the other. That's pretty divergent. Catelyn also has a reason to notice Jeyne's hips; she's judging her ability to carry children. She'd also be the "harsher critic" of the two, with more at stake; if anything, Jaime should be the one to "overcompensate" the width, not Catelyn. Also, forget the different perspectives for a second, and ask why Jaime is noting this girl's hips at all. Kind of an odd thing to describe in that situation, no?

Not that odd, if you think about it. During the conversation with Sybell, Jaime mentions the possibility of Jeyne carrying the Young Wolf son, so its not that weird for him to notice her hips, since he consider the possibility of her being pregnant. I dont want to attack the strawman, so do you believe that Jeyne's younger sister took her place and there is only one Westerling girl in Riverrun or that some lowborn girls assumed the place of Jeyne's little sister, which give us a fake Westerling?

[Jslay427]

Syblle Westerling... Is she what she seems to be? Her mother was a spicer, and up jumped tradesman. Did she really give Jeyne moon tea or is she playing the Lannisters in order to get pardoned. I think there is something to her other than what we know.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not that odd, if you think about it. During the conversation with Sybell, Jaime mentions the possibility of Jeyne carrying the Young Wolf son, so its not that weird for him to notice her hips, since he consider the possibility of her being pregnant. I dont want to attack the strawman, so do you believe that Jeyne's younger sister took her place and there is only one Westerling girl in Riverrun or that some lowborn girls assumed the place of Jeyne's little sister, which give us a fake Westerling?

Sorry but I think it is odd for a guy to describe a girl's hips in a non-sexual context. Unless you can point to me other instances in the books where Jaime includes a hip description when he sees a woman for the first time.

I think that Brynden escaped with Jeyne and that her younger sister is impersonating her, yes. Jeyne's younger sister is never mentioned or seen after the Freys and Lannisters take the castle; I think she just ended up getting "lost." I think the marks that Jaime sees on "Jeyne's" head, that Sybell says came from trying to get her crown away from her, are the result of Sybell beating her younger daughter upon learning that Jeyne has escaped. (Note that Sybell says she took Jeyne's crown, but we never see the crown and it's never surrendered to Jaime or seen by him.) Because Jeyne is already gone and Sybell can't admit that she escaped, she's forced to play along.

[LeoSuperstar]

Sorry but I think it is odd for a guy to describe a girl's hips in a non-sexual context. Unless you can point to me other instances in the books where Jaime includes a hip description when he sees a woman for the first time.

I think that Brynden escaped with Jeyne and that her younger sister is impersonating her, yes. Jeyne's younger sister is never mentioned or seen after the Freys and Lannisters take the castle; I think she just ended up getting "lost." I think the marks that Jaime sees on "Jeyne's" head, that Sybell says came from trying to get her crown away from her, are the result of Sybell beating her younger daughter upon learning that Jeyne has escaped. (Note that Sybell says she took Jeyne's crown, but we never see the crown and it's never surrendered to Jaime or seen by him.) Because Jeyne is already gone and Sybell can't admit that she escaped, she's forced to play along.

You think she is "lost" just because she isn't mentioned? So you believe Jaime just ignored the fact that a Westerling is missing and that none of the westerners would try to gain favor from the queen's brother saying "Hey Lord Commander, that's the younger girl, not Jeyne"?Isn't more logical to assume that she isn't mentioned because she isn't relevant and if there was a Westerling missing, someone would mention somewhere?

[Free Northman]

Apple Martini

The point is that the presence of a Westerling baby would throw into disarray all the Stark kids' claims to Winterfell. We are all emotionally invested in the Stark kids whose stories we have followed since Chapter 1. Few care about the weird Westerlings who descend from some witch woman from the East.

Plus, it would be impossible to prove that a random baby that suddenly is presented as Robb's heir is really his at this point in the series.

[Ser Wun Wun]

ETA: it's definitely confirmed that Jon is in Robb's will. That World of Ice and Fire app stated this in a way that's not really open to interpretation.

Really? :o

It just says it outright? That's awesome. I can't wait to see that plotline come to fruition :D

[Summer is Ending]

To me all that matters is the Blackfish. For people to say he just left Jeyne who Robb entrusted him with, not Edmure, him is to say he pulled a Kingslayer and told Jeyne 'look, I know I swore an oath but you know... they've got us surrounded... things are looking a little bit more difficult than when I swore to keep you safe... I've got a splinter in my sword hand or otherwise... you know... but I promise you'll be ok with me deserting you, the Kingslayer and the Freys. They have a sterling reputation for honoring their word. I really think we can trust them with your life. Ok bye.

But the thing is nothing ever matches up.

The Blackfish says he's swore a vow and yet the next minute he's deserted his queen.

Cat sees one set of hips, Kingslayer sees another.

Cat's first impression of Jeyne is a maid that looks like her mother. Kingslayer sees a coltish awkward girl that sounds more like the girl Cat thinks of as Sansa's age standing near Jeyne and her mother.

Despite claims to the contrary Jeyne's sister is never seen in the Kingslayer chapter, not even by implication, only mentioned and briefly as possible at that.

If there's nothing there it sure does a good job of looking like something it's not.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You think she is "lost" just because she isn't mentioned? So you believe Jaime just ignored the fact that a Westerling is missing and that none of the westerners would try to gain favor from the queen's brother saying "Hey Lord Commander, that's the younger girl, not Jeyne"?Isn't more logical to assume that she isn't mentioned because she isn't relevant and if there was a Westerling missing, someone would mention somewhere?

I think Jaime had more on his mind at that point than the younger Westerling daughter, yeah. I believe he didn't really think about her one way or the other and wouldn't have noticed if she'd "gone missing." It works both ways: If she's not relevant enough to be mentioned, she's not relevant enough to be missed.

Believe it or not this, when Jaime meets the Westerlings, is one of the sequences I've read probably at least a dozen and a half times, picking up on stuff. You're not going to point out anything relevatory to me or something I "haven't thought of," I promise.

Ple Martini

The point is that the presence of a Westerling baby would throw into disarray all the Stark kids' claims to Winterfell. We are all emotionally invested in the Stark kids whose stories we have followed since Chapter 1. Few care about the weird Westerlings who descend from some witch woman from the East.

Plus, it would be impossible to prove that a random baby that suddenly is presented as Robb's heir is really his at this point in the series.

You know what, forget the baby. I'm still not 100% convinced that Sybell blocked a pregnancy, but let's say she did. I still don't believe that the Jeyne whom Catelyn sees is the one whom Jaime sees.

[Victor227]

I've always been conflicted about this. On the one hand, there are things that should have been mentioned ( what with all the mentioning going on in that scene) that weren't. And there's also fairly obvious things (like someone pointing out that they only have one Westerling daughter), that would blow a switch.

Mind you, in regard to legitimacy, Brynden, or a Stark-wolf or something like that would fix that up pretty quickly. I don't know, I once thought the Bran vision:

“After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. “

Was of Jeyne, with Robb's child. But it was all going in order of timeline, so that's impossible. Though the scene could be echoed in the future. All we know of it is that it takes place after Dunk visits Winterfell, and before the time of Lyanna and Benjen as kids.

I like the idea of a switch, of the Blackfish taking her away to the Neck or North. There's just so much that was unsaid about the scene that it's open either way. There was that one guy who was hesitant about escorting Lord Westerling back, the lack of a mention at all of the sister. The missing crown. The missing Blackfish, in spite of his vows. Edmure being pleased! (That's a big one. I mean, why would he be pleased if the Blackfish, a guy who'd loathe him with all his loathing for forcing a surrender, probably call him a worthless coward and beat him around a little, escaped? Big whoop! War's still lost! You still failed!)

[LeoSuperstar]

But what was the Blackfish supposed to do, when the Lord of Riverrun wants to surrender the castle?

And again, it's just a huge leap of faith to believe that an missing Westerling would be ignored AND that none of the westerners would point out the fact that the girl isn't Jeyne. I don't remember Jeyne's little brother being mentioned as well, do you believe he also went with the Blackfish (perhaps as his squire?)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But what was the Blackfish supposed to do, when the Lord of Riverrun wants to surrender the castle?

He did surrender the castle. He just managed to escape when he did it, at face value going against something — protecting Robb's queen — that he swore to Jaime that he'd always do. Kind of odd that Brynden makes such a point about honor to Jaime, only to turn around and abandon "Jeyne," hmm?

And again, it's just a huge leap of faith to believe that an missing Westerling would be ignored AND that none of the westerners would point out the fact that the girl isn't Jeyne. I don't remember Jeyne's little brother being mentioned as well, do you believe he also went with the Blackfish (perhaps as his squire?)

Raynald isn't seen, but he's at least mentioned by name in the discussion. And funny you should mention people noticing that the girl isn't Jeyne when her face is covered up in a cloak. The official excuse is that she's "in mourning," but you don't think it's kind of suspect that she's actively trying to keep her face hidden?

And hey, where's this crown that Sybell allegedly ripped off her daughter's head?