When Jaime Met Brynden

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

What has George done here? Really. What a can of worms...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Raynald isn't seen, but he's at least mentioned by name in the discussion. And funny you should mention people noticing that the girl isn't Jeyne when her face is covered up in a cloak. The official excuse is that she's "in mourning," but you don't think it's kind of suspect that she's actively trying to keep her face hidden?

Furthermore, the Westermen with Jaime have seen two to three years of war without leave, any memory of Jeyne would be from a vastly younger girl, if they had seen her at all. Likely pre-pubescent.

Excluding her father, but he is unlikely to blab.

[Summer is Ending]

But what was the Blackfish supposed to do, when the Lord of Riverrun wants to surrender the castle?

And again, it's just a huge leap of faith to believe that an missing Westerling would be ignored AND that none of the westerners would point out the fact that the girl isn't Jeyne. I don't remember Jeyne's little brother being mentioned as well, do you believe he also went with the Blackfish (perhaps as his squire?)

It doesn't matter what Edmure would say. The Blackfish swore an oath to Robb to keep his queen safe. Edmure has nothing to do with that. It's not an oath saying I swear to keep Jeyne safe unless Edmure tells me he wants to hand her over to treacherous scum like the Kingslayer or the Freys, or I swear to keep her safe as long as it's not too difficult and I have nothing better to do. It's the Blackfish giving Robb his word he will protect his queen.

It's that simple. It's that black and white. If that is Jeyne there with the Kingslayer than it means the Blackfish abandoned his king, his queen, his oath, his honor.

[LeoSuperstar]

He did surrender the castle. He just managed to escape when he did it, at face value going against something — protecting Robb's queen — that he swore to Jaime that he'd always do. Kind of odd that Brynden makes such a point about honor to Jaime, only to turn around and abandon "Jeyne," hmm?

Raynald isn't seen, but he's at least mentioned by name in the discussion. And funny you should mention people noticing that the girl isn't Jeyne when her face is covered up in a cloak. The official excuse is that she's "in mourning," but you don't think it's kind of suspect that she's actively trying to keep her face hidden?

And hey, where's this crown that Sybell allegedly ripped off her daughter's head?

The little sister IS mentioned (although not by name) and by Spicer, that in your theory should do everything to hide the fact that there is a sister:"Your lord father promissed me worthy marriages for Jeyne AND HER YOUNGER SISTER".So the existence of a sister is fresh on Jaime's mind. Hard to simply "forget". And in his own mind, Jaime acknowledges the existence of another daughter:"Younger sons should have been the best that Sybell Spicer DAUGHTERS..."So... Yeah. Just a huge leap of faith.

[Harle The Handsome]

You think she is "lost" just because she isn't mentioned? So you believe Jaime just ignored the fact that a Westerling is missing and that none of the westerners would try to gain favor from the queen's brother saying "Hey Lord Commander, that's the younger girl, not Jeyne"?Isn't more logical to assume that she isn't mentioned because she isn't relevant and if there was a Westerling missing, someone would mention somewhere?

I think you unintentionally answered your own question. If there was no child of King Robb's body, it is inconceivable that no one would mention a switch. However, if they are keeping thier silence to protect Robb's heir, then there is a reason to keep the deception going.

Eventually we will know the answer to this...eventually.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The little sister IS mentioned (although not by name) and by Spicer, that in your theory should do everything to hide the fact that there is a sister:"Your lord father promissed me worthy marriages for Jeyne AND HER YOUNGER SISTER".So the existence of a sister is fresh on Jaime's mind. Hard to simply "forget". And in his own mind, Jaime acknowledges the existence of another daughter:"Younger sons should have been the best that Sybell Spicer DAUGHTERS..."So... Yeah. Just a huge leap of faith.

1. Where is the crown that Sybell said she took from her daughter?

2. Why is "Jeyne" covering her face and shredding her clothes on the road out?

I notice that you finally dropped the hips thing, good call.

And with everything going on — remember that Jaime learns about Ryman Frey's death after the meeting and still has to do clean-up and other command stuff — I don't think Jaime is really worrying about one younger daughter at that point, regardless of how the conversation went. It's simply not on his radar, and even when he sees the Westerlings leave, he only notes "Jeyne" and her appearance (covering the face and shredding her clothes). His focus is on her, not on either of her siblings.

[LeoSuperstar]

1. Where is the crown that Sybell said she took from her daughter?

2. Why is "Jeyne" covering her face and shredding her clothes on the road out?

I notice that you finally dropped the hips thing, good call.

And with everything going on — remember that Jaime learns about Ryman Frey's death after the meeting and still has to do clean-up and other command stuff — I don't think Jaime is really worrying about one younger daughter at that point, regardless of how the conversation went. It's simply not on his radar, and even when he sees the Westerlings leave, he only notes "Jeyne" and her appearance (covering the face and shredding her clothes). His focus is on her, not on either of her siblings.

I didn't "dropped the hips thing". I made the point that they never changed size, only were described by 2 different people and moved on to other points. Should I put it in every post? Maybe you are reaaaaaaaaaaally forgetful, like you're insinuating that Jaime is ;) And your answer was awful, sorry to say. You just saying "Oh yeah? Then why Jeyne is hiding her face?" Jaime provides an reasonable answer for that :) If it weren't for the facts I mentioned, this theory would have merit. But why would Sybell mention there is a sister if supposedly she is not at Riverrun? Why none of the Lannister bannermen (some there are bound to know the Westerlings) mention there is a girl missing?Even if Jaime didnt knew there was a sister (which he does),Marbrand, Brax, Strongboar, someone would call his attention. So... No.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I didn't "dropped the hips thing". I made the point that they never changed size, only were described by 2 different people and moved on to other points. Should I put it in every post? Maybe you are reaaaaaaaaaaally forgetful, like you're insinuating that Jaime is ;) And your answer was awful, sorry to say. You just saying "Oh yeah? Then why Jeyne is hiding her face?" Jaime provides an reasonable answer for that :) If it weren't for the facts I mentioned, this theory would have merit. But why would Sybell mention there is a sister if supposedly she is not at Riverrun? Why none of the Lannister bannermen (some there are bound to know the Westerlings) mention there is a girl missing?Even if Jaime didnt knew there was a sister (which he does),Marbrand, Brax, Strongboar, someone would call his attention. So... No.

And I explained to you that the "two perspective" thing with the hips doesn't wash. I've also explained why a younger daughter could be easily overlooked, and that it's rather strange for a girl to hide her face (if there are other instances in the novel of a woman covering her face in mourning, please direct me to them).

And it's gonna be hard for Marbrand and company to spot that Jeyne isn't Jeyne if her face is hidden, which is kind of the point.

Maybe you are reaaaaaaaaaaally forgetful, like you're insinuating that Jaime is ;) And your answer was awful, sorry to say.

You're also incredibly rude, sorry to say.

There are numerous people besides me who think something is up here, and saying nasty, condescending things isn't going to change that. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that I've read and examined this particular section a hell of a lot more than you have, especially if all you have to fall back on is "different perspectives."

ETA: And I'm still wondering where the hell you think Jeyne's crown is. I've asked at least twice now and I'm still waiting.

[LeoSuperstar]

What was rude about that? You called me out on "dropping the hips thing" and I responded with an sarcastic remark (like yours) with the addition that mine also served to demonstrate a flaw in your main argument. Are you really that easily "offended"?

But in any event, I believe the debate was interesting and I showed you the flaws with your theory (even if pride wont let you say it.) If you come up with new point, Im available to discuss them. I kinda like this theory, and wanted to be true. But it just does't fit :(EDIT- I see you edited some arguments. Let me reply to them: 1- Jeyne hiding her face is irrelevant. I said the westermen would notice that THERE IS A GIRL MISSING, not who the girl is. 2- If the crown isn't mentioned, its probably because it is there but it isn't relevant. Or do you believe that Jaime forgot about the crown as well?!?!?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What was rude about that? You called me out on "dropping the hips thing" and I responded with an sarcastic remark (like yours) with the addition that mine also served to demonstrate a flaw in your main argument. Are you really that easily "offended"?

But in any event, I believe the debate was interesting and I showed you the flaws with your theory (even if pride wont let you say it.) If you come up with new point, Im available to discuss them. I kinda like this theory, and wanted to be true. But it just does't fit :(

You insinuated that I was an idiot and called my argument "awful" while only regurgitating the same stuff I've already addressed.

I've shown that the "different perspectives" doesn't work, and I've also asked you why Jaime would randomly notice this girl's hips, which you never did answer. I've explained how a younger daughter could be missed. I've asked you repeatedly what happened to this girl's crown, which you still haven't addressed. I've asked you why Jeyne would cover her face, which you haven't answered (or at least, you haven't shown evidence where it's a normal mourning custom and not some BS answer they have to explain it away).

So yeah, not answering questions I keep asking. You really showed me. :rolleyes:

You also have a few other people who aren't sold on your answers (Bright Blue Eyes and Summer is Ending) and you haven't even addressed them at all. You might want to get on that, I'm sure they're waiting patiently.

[LeoSuperstar]

I edited the post above, but Im gonna answer the rest now :)

1- You didn't, at all, showed that different perspectives dont work. You dont know what is Jaime standard about hips, and that's basically what's is all about. Maybe the average women of Lannisport has broader hips than the ones on Riverrun/Winterfell :) 2- Jaime notice the hips because his mind is revolving around the idea of Jeyne pregnant from Robb. Hence he judging her "motherly" atributtes. 3- JAIME is the one that believes covering the face and shredding the clothes is a sign of mourning, and he is way more qualified to judge Westerosi customs than you and I. Given the absence of surprise from the others that saw Jeyne like that, I would say that he is right. 4- Stop saying "There are other people that also believe what I believe". Thats not an argument. At all.

Answered all your questions, now answer one: why Sybell Spicer mentions her younger daughter if supposedly she should try not to call attention to that fact?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I edited the post above, but Im gonna answer the rest now :)

1- You didn't, at all, showed that different perspectives dont work. You dont know what is Jaime standard about hips, and that's basically what's is all about. Maybe the average women of Lannisport has broader hips than the ones on Riverrun/Winterfell :)

I explained why it's odd for Catelyn to think of them as wide and Jaime to think of them are narrow, when it should be the other way around. I also showed that we're at two extremes — it might be likely for one person to see narrow and another normal, or one person to see wide and another normal. But two people seeing two extremes? It's a different person they're seeing. Perspective can only explain so much.

2- Jaime notice the hips because his mind is revolving around the idea of Jeyne pregnant from Robb. Hence he judging her "motherly" atributtes.

Jaime's mention of the possibility of her being pregnant is not at the same time as him looking at her hips. When he notes her hips in his mind, not once does he think of her being pregnant or think of her hips in terms of child-bearing. He just treats them as a generic physical description.

3- JAIME is the one that believes covering the face and shredding the clothes is a sign of mourning, and he is way more qualified to judge Westerosi customs than you and I. Given the absence of surprise from the others that saw Jeyne like that, I would say that he is right.

So show me the other examples of women who cover their faces in mourning.

4- Stop saying "There are other people that also believe what I believe". Thats not an argument. At all.

It's not an argument, it's showing that my ideas aren't as "out there" or "ridiculous" as you'd like to believe. You still haven't addressed the other posters who questioned you, either.

Answered all your questions, now answer one: why Sybell Spicer mentions her younger daughter if supposedly she should try not to call attention to that fact?

Do you really think that in all that hustle, with other servants running around and a big caravan, people are going to be looking specifically for the younger Westerling girl? If Jaime doesn't notice that she's there — and he still never sees her or makes note of her — why do you think he (or anyone else) would notice if she wasn't?

As for the crown, by your own logic, she mentions it in the discussion, so where is it?

[Jon AS]

I think the biggest problem with any queen switching is that it requires too many people to keep their mouths shut, starting with everybody in Riverrun. Conspiracies of that size don't stay secret for long. What's that line, 'Three men can keep a secret, if two of them are dead'?

It also requires the cooperation of the very people who conspired with Tywin Lannister to bring Robb down when he was at his strongest. Why would they switch sides now that the Stark cause is lost?

I explained why it's odd for Catelyn to think of them as wide and Jaime to think of them are narrow, when it should be the other way around. I also showed that we're at two extremes — it might be likely for one person to see narrow and another normal, or one person to see wide and another normal. But two people seeing two extremes? It's a different person they're seeing. Perspective can only explain so much.

It could be a simple oversight, like Renly's eyes switching colour. If Jeyne has no further role to play in the narrative it would even be a very understandable oversight.

So show me the other examples of women who cover their faces in mourning.

She doesn't cover her face. She wears a hooded cloak and rides "with downcast eyes".

Do you really think that in all that hustle, with other servants running around and a big caravan, people are going to be looking specifically for the younger Westerling girl? If Jaime doesn't notice that she's there — and he still never sees her or makes note of her — why do you think he (or anyone else) would notice if she wasn't?

The younger sister is twelve. Are we really to believe that she can pass for a sixteen year old?

Also, any plan that requires that nobody notices that a certain person isn't there when she should be strikes me as terribly risky and thus weak. I think in this case absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence.

[LeoSuperstar]

I answered all your questions. You, in addition to not answering the ONE I made, gave me such weak replies for my answers that i think you're trying to bore me enough to not answer and go to sleep. But Im gonna try... One... last... time. 1- Yes, is odd that they see opposites. Still completely plausible, and when we see how the rest of your theory dosen't hold up, it becomes irrelevant.

2- Im explaining Jaime mindset while he looks at Jeyne, based on the fact that he asks about the pregnancy right at the start, is logical that the idea is revolving in his mind. Hence the hips. 3- That looks like (bad) trolling. I dont have to show you examples, because Im arguing that in Jaime's perception (Jaime Lannister, an WESTEROSI) that is an sign of mourning. No one else present at the scene acts surprised about that. So, its an easy deduction id that it is an sign of mourning. 4- The only other post that I read said that "Blackfish wouldn't abandon his queen", which sounds like something Sansa from aGoT would say. I choose to reply to you because (initially) you were making some interesting points. BONUS= In addition to outright ignoring my question, you bring up an very weak point. Jaime dosen't mention the crown, that dosen't mean the crown has disappeared. Its the other way around, since the absence of the crown would be worth mentioning, while the trivial presence of the crown its not. Now feel free to ignore all the points I raised and ask the same questions I already answered.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We're arguing in circles and we each think the other is just regurgitating responses. In the interest of not wasting anymore time on you, I'm done.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the biggest problem with any queen switching is that it requires too many people to keep their mouths shut, starting with everybody in Riverrun. Conspiracies of that size don't stay secret for long. What's that line, 'Three men can keep a secret, if two of them are dead'?

It also requires the cooperation of the very people who conspired with Tywin Lannister to bring Robb down when he was at his strongest. Why would they switch sides now that the Stark cause is lost?

It requires the cooperation of the Blackfish, Edmure, Jeyne and her sister. That's it.

It could be a simple oversight, like Renly's eyes switching colour. If Jeyne has no further role to play in the narrative it would even be a very understandable oversight.

Except that Jeyne's wide hips are noted multiple times by Catelyn, once emphatically at the end of a chapter. Hard to think of that as being "oversight" when her wide hips are one of her defining physical attributes.

She doesn't cover her face. She wears a hooded cloak and rides "with downcast eyes".

Semantics. Her face is obscured.

The younger sister is twelve. Are we really to believe that she can pass for a sixteen year old?

Jon was 14 and Tyrion thought he was 12. Jeyne Poole is too old to be Arya. Kids' ages get fudged and overlooked all the time in this story.

Also, any plan that requires that nobody notices that a certain person isn't there when she should be strikes me as terribly risky and thus weak. I think in this case absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence.

The missing person here isn't really Jeyne, it's her sister. Given the significantly higher value of Jeyne herself, I don't think it's unreasonable, considering the number of people around and the stress of the situation, for a second girl to be overlooked. As long as "Jeyne's" there, that's what people are really looking for.

[Lady Hornwood]

Answered all your questions, now answer one: why Sybell Spicer mentions her younger daughter if supposedly she should try not to call attention to that fact?

Do you really think that in all that hustle, with other servants running around and a big caravan, people are going to be looking specifically for the younger Westerling girl? If Jaime doesn't notice that she's there — and he still never sees her or makes note of her — why do you think he (or anyone else) would notice if she wasn't?

You really did not answer the question here at all. Let's say Jaimie's reply to Sybell requesting husbands for her daughters would be: yes, with your older daughter we have to wait, but the younger is to mary my bannerman lord whatever of house whatnot of someplace, he's here with me, they can meet right away! If lady Sybell knew she was short one daughter, why risk mentioning her?

[louzeyre]

The Blackwoods had the direwolf banner up until their surrender too, so I don't think that can be used as any indication that Jeyne was pregnant.

[butterbumps!]

Apple,

about the crown: Is it out of the realm of possibility that the Blackfish swiped the crown himself? (and carried it out without Jeyne's being attached to it?) Is seems like the Blackfish is out to continue the Stark cause, so I think it follows that he salvages whatever symbol of office he can to that end.

about the hips: If I were Jaime I'd be sizing up Jeyne too. This is the woman who cost Robb his kingdom, and I don't think it's odd he'd comment on discrete body parts like this. Isn't his inner dialogue saying something to the effect of "she's no Helen of Troy"? Which, after the fact of the Red Wedding, the eyes upon her might not be so charitable as a description before knowing how much it cost Robb. Plus, she's just not to Jaime's taste anyway.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

Look, everybody:

If Edmure looks smug, it's because he pwned Jaime and has let both Jeyne and the Blackfish get out of Riverrun.

So Edmure's flawless and just pwned Jaime, nuff said.

Deal with it, Jeyne Westerling is going willy nilly all round the Trident. Brynden Tully might or might not be with her. PERIOD.

(I'm drunk outta my mind, but what I typeD still makes sense :drunk: )