When Jaime Met Brynden

[Bayard]

I buy the Jeyne escape, it's a nice Easter egg, with no real important repercussion to the story. Yes, Edmure came to the castle, and being the Lord he could decide to surrender, but he had no authority over Jeyne, the Blackfish was more important in Robb's ranks. It was his decision to make. Of course in this situation, Edmure could try and force him to give her up.... perfectly possible, he feared for his life. But we know for sure that the Blackfish would have argued, said bad things to his nephew..... so the next day he wouldn't have been so smug, after being called a traitor, a coward and so on :). So through simple logic, this couldn't have happened. So Brynden Tully made the decisions concerning Jeyne, and he probably took her with him. What happened afterwards, I don't know, maybe they planned the switch before?? maybe Sybelle came with the idea after she found out???? Tough to guess, but what I am sure is that they had girls to pick for replacement. Jeyne was a queen, you can bet she had some young girls around her. So the "Jeyne" Jaime met could be her sister, or another girl.... but I wouldn't put that much thought in the fact that one of the girls is missing later.

What I don't agree with, is the idea that Jeyne was pregnant. The theory that Sybelle said to Tywin she was giving moon tea to Jeyne, and then to do the exact opposite in reality, seems too convoluted, too risky. Add to that the fact that it has been a long time since Robb was killed... I'm not sure on the schedule, but Jeyne would have to be in her last trimester at least. Or maybe even more, the baby could have been already born. Either way, it's crazy to think that the Blackfish would take a pregnant woman in the river, or a newborn baby. That could mean a death sentence to Robb's baby, so, to his new king/queen.

What I think is that Jeyne is gone, not pregnant, and probably taken to the Neck and kept safe till the last book :). Of course, Blackfish could have other ideas... to take her to Jon, and arrange a marriage between them. She still is a bad match, a horrible match, but she would double his legitimacy, he might think the will is not enough :)

[Melonica Stormborn]

While I'm not fully convinced with the Jeyne switcheroo, I believe it's more suspicious to NOT mention the sister. If you're pretending that nothing is wrong, you should speak and act like there is nothing wrong and just hope the other party won't poke holes. Kind of a weak argument, but for me, one shouldn't overthink in such situations. They just have to take the risk.

[Ice Turtle]

Hips aside, I think that Blackfish refusing to surrender and deceiving Jaime makes sense if Jon was named the heir too. He obviously send two men (RR master at arms and captain of guard) to either get more info about what kind of person Jon is or to contact him about the will.

[Jon AS]

It requires the cooperation of the Blackfish, Edmure, Jeyne and her sister. That's it.

It requires the cooperation of everyone at Riverrun, unless we are to assume that Jeyne spent her entire time there locked in a room, as well as her father, a loyal Lannister bannerman.

Except that Jeyne's wide hips are noted multiple times by Catelyn, once emphatically at the end of a chapter. Hard to think of that as being "oversight" when her wide hips are one of her defining physical attributes.

They were important to Cat at the time, but assuming that GRRM has effectively written her out it wouldn't be surprising if he didn't give it more thought during this description. All it might mean is "Jaime doesn't think she's hot".

Semantics. Her face is obscured.

There's a huge difference between what Jeyne does and "covering your face in mourning", as you put it. It's not a very important point, I grant you, but it's no use trying to paint an exaggerated picture here.

Jon was 14 and Tyrion thought he was 12. Jeyne Poole is too old to be Arya. Kids' ages get fudged and overlooked all the time in this story.

Everybody who takes a closer look at Jeyne always remarks on the fact that she's too old, people go along with it because it suits them. And it's a smaller jump from 12 to 14 than it is from 12 to 16. That's just not something that seems like it stands a realistic chance to succeed.

The missing person here isn't really Jeyne, it's her sister. Given the significantly higher value of Jeyne herself, I don't think it's unreasonable, considering the number of people around and the stress of the situation, for a second girl to be overlooked. As long as "Jeyne's" there, that's what people are really looking for.

I'm still unconvinced that anyone would take the risk of not having the sister around, be it as herself or being impersonated by a third girl. One person asking after her ruins everything.

And I'm still not seeing any reason for the Westerlings and Spicers to go along with this bizarre plan. They've profited massively (especially the Spicers), and while Sybelle may be kind of miffed about Jaime's suggestion that her son is to wed a Lannister bastard instead of a proper highborn girl, I still don't see that as enough motivation to switch sides, nevermind that at that point it's way too late to pull the switch.

[-Ghost-]

There are do many questions that Im really not sure what to make of the situation.

I agree that the hips thing is weird. The two comparisons are totally different, I dont see how this could be the same girl theyre looking at. Why even put this in if it has no other meaning?

Why would the Blackfish just abandon his vow to Robb after making such a big seal of it to Jamie?

Why would the Westerling mother agree to this? She has been helping Tywin all along, why switch now that Robb's cause is lost? Why put on this whole act with Jamie, why not just tell him? Unless she had no knowledge of the Blackfish's plan untill after he had escaped with Jeyne and she was scared that everything Tywin promised would be taken from her. So it could be that she found a replacement younger daughter or the BF did as part of his plan.

Im not sure if Jeyne is pregnant or not, but if the BF knew what was in Robb's will I have a feeling he's headed to the Wall to Jon, the last Stark. Could also be a reason why he calls him dishonest infront of Jamie to make him think he wouldnt go there. And if Jeyne is gone that explains where the missing crown is.

[Summer is Ending]

I answered all your questions. You, in addition to not answering the ONE I made, gave me such weak replies for my answers that i think you're trying to bore me enough to not answer and go to sleep. But Im gonna try... One... last... time. 1- Yes, is odd that they see opposites. Still completely plausible, and when we see how the rest of your theory dosen't hold up, it becomes irrelevant.

2- Im explaining Jaime mindset while he looks at Jeyne, based on the fact that he asks about the pregnancy right at the start, is logical that the idea is revolving in his mind. Hence the hips. 3- That looks like (bad) trolling. I dont have to show you examples, because Im arguing that in Jaime's perception (Jaime Lannister, an WESTEROSI) that is an sign of mourning. No one else present at the scene acts surprised about that. So, its an easy deduction id that it is an sign of mourning. 4- The only other post that I read said that "Blackfish wouldn't abandon his queen", which sounds like something Sansa from aGoT would say. I choose to reply to you because (initially) you were making some interesting points. BONUS= In addition to outright ignoring my question, you bring up an very weak point. Jaime dosen't mention the crown, that dosen't mean the crown has disappeared. Its the other way around, since the absence of the crown would be worth mentioning, while the trivial presence of the crown its not. Now feel free to ignore all the points I raised and ask the same questions I already answered.

Someting Sansa would say.. ok look. I know there is that element that will always try to drag everyone else down so the Lannisters don't look like the shitstains they are. 'Is Ned Stark really a serial rapist murdering fiend??? The books don't actually say he isn't so he just must be!!! Hur Hur Hur.'

Read the ToJ to see men keeping their oaths to the bitter end. Stannis knew Penrose since he was a little boy and he still had to kill him before he surrendered a boy he swore to keep safe. Read anything involving Davos Seaworth for god's sake.

Yes there are shitstains and sewer rats like the lannisters and freys and the littlefingers that believe an oath is only a good excuse to get behind someone so they can stab them in the back. There are just as many people that actually possess honor and mean what they say and stay true to their oaths.

But that's fair. It's up to each of us to decide what kind of man the Blackfish is. A shitstain like Kingslayer and his ilk or a man that keeps faith like Lord Davos or Ser Arthur Dayne. We'll all just have to wait and see.

Jon was 14 and Tyrion thought he was 12. Jeyne Poole is too old to be Arya. Kids' ages get fudged and overlooked all the time in this story.

Specifically Cat thinks of the sister as Sansa's age when she first sees her. How are people looking at Sansa even before she has even left King's Landing?

Apple,

about the crown: Is it out of the realm of possibility that the Blackfish swiped the crown himself? (and carried it out without Jeyne's being attached to it?) Is seems like the Blackfish is out to continue the Stark cause, so I think it follows that he salvages whatever symbol of office he can to that end.

about the hips: If I were Jaime I'd be sizing up Jeyne too. This is the woman who cost Robb his kingdom, and I don't think it's odd he'd comment on discrete body parts like this. Isn't his inner dialogue saying something to the effect of "she's no Helen of Troy"? Which, after the fact of the Red Wedding, the eyes upon her might not be so charitable as a description before knowing how much it cost Robb. Plus, she's just not to Jaime's taste anyway.

Why would the mother lie about that though?

“She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”

As a guy I find it very odd and I've definitely never looked at a girl's hips as a way to disparage her. If that's actually a thing I promise you that's a lady thing. Her hips are too narrow? No, that will always be a strange thing for a guy to say.

[jblair]

In the entire series, hip proportion is only used as a key descriptor by two people, referring to the same girl. Their respective opinions on these hips are directly opposite (on a body part that doesn't particularly allow for wide-ranging interpretation). Come on, people.

If Catelyn had remarked about real-Arya's "large big toes" and later Roose notes fake-Arya's "tiny toes", would we have any doubt that such a random characteristic (and the different interpretations) was in there for a reason. This is nothing like the Renly eye-color error.

[butterbumps!]

Why would the mother lie about that though?

“She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”

As a guy I find it very odd and I've definitely never looked at a girl's hips as a way to disparage her. If that's actually a thing I promise you that's a lady thing. Her hips are too narrow? No, that will always be a strange thing for a guy to say.

Lie about what? That Jeyne fought to keep her crown?

But lol. Guys notice hips, let's not get carried away here. If the Violent Femmes wrote 36-24-36 in modern times, I definitely don't see why Jaime wouldn't in an age where birthing babies was so highly prized. Jaime wasn't looking at the hips to disparage her, just sizing her up and in his opinion she was not as womanly as he's accustomed to.

[Summer is Ending]

Everybody who takes a closer look at Jeyne always remarks on the fact that she's too old, people go along with it because it suits them. And it's a smaller jump from 12 to 14 than it is from 12 to 16. That's just not something that seems like it stands a realistic chance to succeed.

I don't really understand what you're saying here? Who remarks on the fact that she's too old? If I'm not misunderstanding you can you provide the passages you're talking of. Cat thinks of her as a pretty little girl and Kingslayer pretty much the same.

She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for.

[butterbumps!]

I don't really understand what you're saying here? Who remarks on the fact that she's too old? If I'm not misunderstanding you can you provide the passages you're talking of. Cat thinks of her as a pretty little girl and Kingslayer pretty much the same.

She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for.

But it's not like Cat says she's got Sophia Loren hips or anything like that. All Cat really says is:

"Yes, this pretty little girl is a queen, I must remember that. She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing children, at least."

Cat's not saying these hips are big or noticeably large or the like.

[straits]

But it's not like Cat says she's got Sophia Loren hips or anything like that. All Cat really says is:

"Yes, this pretty little girl is a queen, I must remember that. She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing children, at least."

Cat's not saying these hips are big or noticeably large or the like.

Googling Sophia Loren.

edit: oh i know her. she's wayyyyyyyy past prime o'clock though

[butterbumps!]

Googling Sophia Loren.

edit: oh i know her. she's wayyyyyyyy past prime o'clock though

lol, yes, since evidently clarification is needed I meant Sophia Loren circa 1960

[straits]

I remember reading a GRRM interview where he remarks upon small mistakes in description, and her hips were mentioned. I don't think they have any consequence on the story, or on the way the story should be perceived.

[Scipio Africanus]

You left the best part out.

Tully: "Your word of honor? Do you even know what honor is?"

Jamie: a horse

But seriously, I'm quite sceptical of the whole Jeyne is pregnant thing. There's not much to go on, most of the texts implies her mother was blocking the pregnancy. Besides this would contradict the populair theory that Tywin Lannister put up the Westerlings to prostitute Jeyne to Robb, so he'd break his vow to the Freys.

Why is Edmure so smug? Could be a number of reasons really, but the simple explination might be he knows his soon to born child won't get flung by a trebuchet. Remember, for weeks now every day he stood around with a noose over his neck, so he'd be glad it was all behind him.

Is Brynden covering here? I don't know. mr. Blackfish seems like the kind of guy who would taunt Jamie. Blackfish was a professional soldier with a long campaign history. He wouldn't take guys like Jamie seriously. Besides, he probably was just bored.

Brynden might also just be covering the fact that he had an escape plan and a further contingency plan to revitalize the war in the Riverlands. The Riverlands, due to Edmure's not so strategic decisions, should still be able to raise men.

[Nausicaä]

There's a huge difference between what Jeyne does and "covering your face in mourning", as you put it. It's not a very important point, I grant you, but it's no use trying to paint an exaggerated picture here.

I agree, thank you for saying that. I don't get that argument, because wearing a hood doesn't at all obscure the face in the same way something like a veil does and it most certainly doesn't hide it. Unless the hood is pulled down to the goddamn chin (which is very likely thing for someone who is trying to inconspicuously pass themselves off as another person) or it is huge and you can only see the profile/back of the head of the person, which doesn't apply to Jeyne, since she's riding surrounded from all sides by Lannister men. Those who help her up/down her her horse and those who ride in front of her and are in position to steal glaces at her and those who serve her during the stops, etc. would all be able to see her face.

It's winter and everyone here wears hoods of their coats up, yet I'm pretty sure that I would be able to tell their features, even if they were hiding/lowering their eyes.

[LeoSuperstar]

All I say is that Sybell Spicer mentions her younger daughter to Jaime. If there was no younger daughter in Riverrun, why take such an HUGE risk?

And to expect that none of the westernmen (many that certainly knew the Westerlings) would say: "Where is Gawen younger girl?"

It just makes no sense.

[mcb]

But seriously, I'm quite sceptical of the whole Jeyne is pregnant thing. There's not much to go on, most of the texts implies her mother was blocking the pregnancy. Besides this would contradict the populair theory that Tywin Lannister put up the Westerlings to prostitute Jeyne to Robb, so he'd break his vow to the Freys.

I was under the impression even Tywin was at least mildly surprised that Robb had fucked away his kingdom. If it had been his plan from the beginning, it had had to be an especially convoluted one (Robb gets wounded and stays specifically at the Crag; Theon Greyjoy provides crushing news from home, with impeccable timing; formerly honorable Robb, son of Ned Stark, decides to defecate on his royal word and marry the girl he likes instead). No, I don't believe anyone except GRRM himself could've planned this ahead.

[Scipio Africanus]

I was under the impression even Tywin was at least mildly surprised that Robb had fucked away his kingdom. If it had been his plan from the beginning, it had had to be an especially convoluted one (Robb gets wounded and stays specifically at the Crag; Theon Greyjoy provides crushing news from home, with impeccable timing; formerly honorable Robb, son of Ned Stark, decides to defecate on his royal word and marry the girl he likes instead). No, I don't believe anyone except GRRM himself could've planned this ahead.

The problem with the theory is how did Tywin know where Robb would be in the first place to pull off his grand pimpin' plan? It all seems a fortunate coincidence for Tywin, but then again, no one can blame Tywin that he lacked fortune during the Wot5K...

Yes Kevan Lannister drops a few hints, that Jeyne was very much her mother's daughter. Obviously hinting that they wanted to rise above their station and would go far in doing so. Then there's Grey Wind who didn't like the Westerlings much, also a giveaway he mistrusted them.

Untill we know more the theory that Jeyne is pregnant or that the Westerlings indeed had plotted against Robb cannot be proven in any way.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Personally, I can't agree on the idea that the Blackfish smuggled a pregnant Jeyne out of Riverrun.

1. Catelyn will see her as having "good hips", because she's hoping the girl can at least give Robb sons after all the trouble she has caused. She is trying her best to see the positive in such a negative situation. Jamie will see the girl as having "narrow hips" because he is being critical while trying to see why Robb put his crown in jeopardy by marrying her. The most important job for a queen is providing heirs, so it makes sense that he would judge the girl's hips...the same reason Catelyn judged her hips. Jaime also described the same curls.

2. Sybell Westerling was definitely giving her daughter something..."My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning." Sure, the girl thought this was a fertility potion, but I feel it was obvious that the girl didn't know she was a pawn being used by her parents.

3. I feel that the girl truly loved Robb, and was heartbroken by his death. "It was mine [...] You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him." The girl had no reason to lie in front of Jaime about her feelings for Robb. Her awkward nature, as described by Jamie, was the vibe I got from her during her conversation with Catelyn. Also, if the girl truly loved Robb and has just now discovered the treachery of her mom, it stands to reason that she would be incredibly upset.

4. The Blackfish is obviously distracting Jaime. I feel it was because he knew he couldn't accept Jaime's terms and he didn't want to give Jaime any reason to believe that he was about to abandon the castle. I also don't see the Blackfish being so honor bound to the Westerlings who he discovered had been pardoned by Tywin Lannister. I'm sure the Blackfish had heard the "Rains of Castamere". This song was meant to show what Tywin Lannister did to houses that crossed him. I'm sure that the Blackfish would have thought on why Tywin Lannister would then excuse an old, impoverished house that joined a rebel king against House Lannister. Especially when the daughter married the rebel king and could possibly be carrying his child.

[Harimad]

I've always been conflicted about this. On the one hand, there are things that should have been mentioned ( what with all the mentioning going on in that scene) that weren't. And there's also fairly obvious things (like someone pointing out that they only have one Westerling daughter), that would blow a switch.

Mind you, in regard to legitimacy, Brynden, or a Stark-wolf or something like that would fix that up pretty quickly. I don't know, I once thought the Bran vision:

“After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. “

Was of Jeyne, with Robb's child. But it was all going in order of timeline, so that's impossible. Though the scene could be echoed in the future. All we know of it is that it takes place after Dunk visits Winterfell, and before the time of Lyanna and Benjen as kids.

I always wondered about the woman in this quote. For a while I kind of thought it was Lyanna--a metaphorical representation, not a literal one--simply from the ties with the Old Gods and the weirwood and the fact that she dies far away from home, but as I also ascribe to the R+L theory, I don't know who she would be seeking revenge upon, unless it would be the people responsible for Rhaegar's death--so that one's shot to hell. Plus, you say from the timeline that it was pre-Lyanna and Benjen. An older Stark ancestor perhaps? I have to wonder about that, though, since it seems like most old stories/visions of ancestors usually have a pretty direct tie to the present events.

Is there a specific/good thread about all of the more obscure visions/dreams (i.e. not TOJ or HotU?)