Dragons in Asshai

[LeoSuperstar]

"The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. ... saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

This is from Bran's first "magical" dream. He is seeing the present, so that means there are still Dragons in the world before Daenerys hatches her 3? What do you guys think?

[TyrionsFlagon]

I've never read the dreams as being fact. Because Dany's dragons were getting so much attention as 'the only dragons on the planet' by sailors and travelers, I would assume that there weren't any dragons in Asshai.

[LeoSuperstar]

I've never read the dreams as being fact. Because Dany's dragons were getting so much attention as 'the only dragons on the planet' by sailors and travelers, I would assume that there weren't any dragons in Asshai.

But this dream seems to be quite factual. He sees things he would have no other way of knowing (like Catelyn on a boat looking at the dagger).

[Free Northman]

I've often pondered on this. It kind of contradicts the line in Daenerys's pyre chapter, where it says that for the first time in hundreds of years dragon screams filled the night.

The only way I can reconcile the two quotes, is that there are indeed dragons in Ashai, but they have been sleeping or hibernating for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years.

Hence, while their screams had not been filling the night, they could still be stirring in their slumber.

So in short, there are adult dragons in Ashai, but they have been sleeping during the decline of magic in the world. They are now awakening again, gradually.

[PrinceHenryris]

If Asshai had live dragons, the world of ASoIaF fire would have probably heard about them by now.

[LeoSuperstar]

If Asshai had live dragons, the world of ASoIaF fire would have probably heard about them by now.

I agree. But would you care to provide an explanation to the quote?

[Scipio Africanus]

If Asshai had live dragons, the world of ASoIaF fire would have probably heard about them by now.

They did, Varys brought the small council a report of a three headed dragon but nobody gave a, you know.

I've often pondered on this. It kind of contradicts the line in Daenerys's pyre chapter, where it says that for the first time in hundreds of years dragon screams filled the night.

Or it can be explained that dragons were extinct in Weseros and most of Essos for a very long time. However Asshai is still pretty far away from the Free cities, Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki sea, far enough for it to be considered a seperate region. And enough space for dragons to still exist. Plus the environment would be ideal for dragons, if we think of them as giant lizards.

A problem with being overly sceptical of Bran's dream, is that the rest has proven pretty accurate. So why would only the dragon part be a figment of Bran's overactive imagination?

[Amitaibs3]

"where dragon stirrED beneath the sunshine..." Could be taken as a place where dragons used to stir, in the past. As it is.

[Free Northman]

They did, Varys brought the small council a report of a three headed dragon but nobody gave a, you know.

Or it can be explained that dragons were extinct in Weseros and most of Essos for a very long time. However Asshai is still pretty far away from the Free cities, Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki sea, far enough for it to be considered a seperate region. And enough space for dragons to still exist. Plus the environment would be ideal for dragons, if we think of them as giant lizards.

A problem with being overly sceptical of Bran's dream, is that the rest has proven pretty accurate. So why would only the dragon part be a figment of Bran's overactive imagination?

I believe that the key is the word "stirred". This implies that the dragons in Ashai were awakening after a long period of immobility/slumber/petrification even.

My view is that Daenerys's dragons are not unique in the world. There were dragons in Ashai all this time, but they were hibernating deep in some volcano or underground thermal vent, unknown to the world. They are now stirring in their slumber, as magic returns to the world.

[georgiatargaryen]

They did, Varys brought the small council a report of a three headed dragon but nobody gave a, you know.

I'm sorry I forget in which book this takes place, but isn't this just like the 'Chinese whispers' version of the stories about Dany's dragons reaching King's Landing? Three dragons = three heads, but the tale got a bit distorted on its way to Varys (although I'm sure he knows the truth anyway).

[Makes No Sansa]

There's another dragonlord family in Asshai. It is known.

[Dornish Whine]

I think the 'stirred' argument is a good one - as in 'where they used to stir, back in the day'. He could have chosen a different tense if they still existed - i.e. 'stirring'.

However IIRC, there are also parts of the dream that seem prophetic and not a current event. The giant in stone armor lifting his visor and revealing nothing but darkness seems to foretell events from AFFC and beyond possibly. Perhaps the dragons Bran sees are a vision of Dany's 3.

There is too much made of Dany's dragons for them to not be the only ones alive. The comet, the wild fire, the glass candles, etc. Are we to assume that living Dragons in Asshai are just too far away to power magic as far east as in Quarth (where the undying ones had their temple) let alone Westeros?

Also, Mel is from Asshai (if she can be believed) and I do not recall her ever mentioning any living dragons.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

I think Asshai is comparable to the lands north of the Wall, meaning "magical stuff" always exists.

Shadowbinders from Asshai are known about in Westeros before Dany hatches her dragons.

Melisandre says something about Asshai and the Wall being hinges of the world.

[Free Northman]

I think the 'stirred' argument is a good one - as in 'where they used to stir, back in the day'. He could have chosen a different tense if they still existed - i.e. 'stirring'.

However IIRC, there are also parts of the dream that seem prophetic and not a current event. The giant in stone armor lifting his visor and revealing nothing but darkness seems to foretell events from AFFC and beyond possibly. Perhaps the dragons Bran sees are a vision of Dany's 3.

There is too much made of Dany's dragons for them to not be the only ones alive. The comet, the wild fire, the glass candles, etc. Are we to assume that living Dragons in Asshai are just too far away to power magic as far east as in Quarth (where the undying ones had their temple) let alone Westeros?

Also, Mel is from Asshai (if she can be believed) and I do not recall her ever mentioning any living dragons.

Dragons don't power magic. Magic powers dragons.

[Dornish Whine]

Dragons don't power magic. Magic powers dragons.

They must amplify it in some way. Perhaps they are born of magic and then become magical 'repeaters' ... But I got the distinct impression that they enhanced magic when they came into existence. For example - the wild fire production increasing.

Now if I take the view that I think you are espousing - Magic itself is somehow re-emerging and the dragons are a by-product of that.... Then the question becomes, what is causing magic to return?

[Scipio Africanus]

Dragons don't power magic. Magic powers dragons.

You know, is this really true, that dragons are completely magic? They seem to behave like any other biological creature.

For you see people said direwolves were magic too, yet we see them behaving like wolves - just larger and more powerful. The same thing could be said for giants and mammoths, and possibly unicorns (if they truely are just sheep with a horn), and perhaps even the kraken as well (if its just a collosal squid).

I'm thinking that people in Westeros and Essos consider any creature rare "magic" because they don't understand it.

The only creatures I've seen so far behaving completely unnatural are the undead (who require little to no fuel to further locomotion) and perhaps the Others in this series. Direwolves and dragons so far need food and sleep.

Though I do admit dragons do seem connected to the "return" of magic (and well, firebreathing is unnatural, although flying lizards isn't really) and your theory about Bran's vision might fit well into that.

[Free Northman]

They must amplify it in some way. Perhaps they are born of magic and then become magical 'repeaters' ... But I got the distinct impression that they enhanced magic when they came into existence. For example - the wild fire production increasing.

Now if I take the view that I think you are espousing - Magic itself is somehow re-emerging and the dragons are a by-product of that.... Then the question becomes, what is causing magic to return?

Yes, dragons are the "side-effect" of magic. Kind of like sea level rise is a side effect of global warming. Sea level rise isn't the cause of global warming though.

Correlation, rather than causation (if that's the right word).

Magic moves in natural cycles. High-Low, High-low. Dragons wax and wane along with it. As does wildfire and other spells. Excluding the Old Gods, who are apart from this cycle, and just linked to the number of weirwoods in existence.

[GreenHand]

"The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. ... saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

This could be a poetic expression of dragons only being active or dimly visible as active to Bran from afar in the distant East where the Sun rises first each day.

Wild Dragons in Asshai

It seems that Dragons have a historical connection to Asshai. They are a center of magic (where "shadowbinders practise their art openly") and the source of much Fire mythology/symbolism. Perhaps even the origin of R'hllorism itself. Certainly the fire-inclusive legend of Azor Ahai seems to come from Asshai. Whatever the magick relationship, dragons are associated with magick and so is Asshai. Before Valyria they may well have been the center of learning.

However, Valyria was unique in that they TAMED dragons. My impression is that dragons were never tamed in Asshai. They roamed remote wilds where they may never meet humans. Daenerys' 3 dragons quickly set in motion a rumour fire because she displayed her dragons in public (along the trade routes). It would have taken many years longer if at all for word to reach Westeros if she had simple headed deeper into the wilderness with her dragons.

All that reaches the civilized and trading world of the wild dragons of Asshai are the rare dragon eggs presumably found there. Even if Illyrio is lying about the dragon eggs coming from Asshai, it is received as a credible tale.

Dragons from Stone

I believe that the key is the word "stirred". This implies that the dragons in Ashai were awakening after a long period of immobility/slumber/petrification even.

Melisandre's stone dragons

I would just like to add that the one character who has been to Asshai is Melisandre. And we have seen that she is mildly obssessed with the idea of waking dragons from stone. Her outward religious zeal not withstanding, her belief in this idea is in stark contrast to the incredulity of non-R'hllor Westerosi who have a collective memory of dragons that includes nothing of waking from stone. But Melisandre who has demonstrated real magick (ie she's not just delusionally crazy) seems sure this is possible. Perhaps Waking stone dragons is something that Asshai remembers doing in its historical collective memory.

Dragoneggs & Lifecycles & Ancient Dragons

We have seen that Dragon eggs themselves appear to be solid stone, even when they are completely viable and just prior to hatching. They may be true stone or just appear very very similar to stone. So maybe this is part of the dragons natural physiology and lifecycle, to continue to be alive but dormant in a rock like state.

Perhaps very long-lived dragons go through periods of dormant hibernation (like other reptiles and amphibians) wherein their flesh reverts to the stone of the egg. Perhaps if their inner fires keep their blood / flesh "melted" and so in dormancy the fires subside causing it to solidify into pseudo-rock.

In Westeros no dragon lived long enough to experience this and they were constantly fed in captivity. They experienced no winter and did not react well to/like the cold of the North. As Ser Barristan Selmy points out of the Westerosi Targeryan "Dragons were bred for War and in War they died". But preliminary indications are that Dragons don't age they just get bigger and bigger over time. So what happens in the wild when an ancient dragon gets so big that it needs to much food for it's hunting grounds? As it's hunting intensifies the game/prey gets sparser - so perhaps it sleeps allowing its food to replenish itself in his terratory. What we see of Drogon's behaviour suggests Dragons develop terratories.

[Dornish Whine]

I am at a loss for quotes at the moment to support my claim. I will need to search for it, but I seem to recall someone telling Dany (I think) that her dragons were the reason for the magical boost that the world of ASOIF has seen in the books. While I do not doubt that magic rises and falls like the tide over the course of centuries, I still believe the dragons increase its potency.

[Scipio Africanus]

I am at a loss for quotes at the moment to support my claim. I will need to search for it, but I seem to recall someone telling Dany (I think) that her dragons were the reason for the magical boost that the world of ASOIF has seen in the books. While I do not doubt that magic rises and falls like the tide over the course of centuries, I still believe the dragons increase its potency.

That doesn't explain why Asshai's dragons don't boost magic though. And we know they're there through Varys and Illyrio, and perhaps to a lesser extent Red Mel (stone dragon). And Bran's dream.

If dragons are totally magical, I'm with Free Northman, that dragons and magic mutually support each other.