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Black Crow

Heresy 31

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Welcome to Heresy 31; the latest instalment in the long running series, now in its second year!

Here you will find orthodoxy challenged and an alternative offered to easy assumptions that the Others are evil incarnate; that Bran will learn from Bloodraven how to defeat them, and that Jon will accomplish it as Azor Ahai riding on the back of one of Dany's amazing dragons, before taking his rightful place on the Iron Throne.

On the other hand we take no fixed position on what's really going down although we have a very shrewd suspicion that the Starks are not as they seem, that Celtic and Norse mythology is playing a big role here, and that the clue offered by the late Ser Guyard Morrigen is a very significant one.

Not everyone is convinced of this and we debate vigorously, but always by reference to text, respect for the views of others, and great good humour.

ETA: hasty spelling and lack of punctuation. I'll try and write up a fuller summary in time.

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In the interview I shared GRRM says that we see the world through his characters' eyes - and they are not omniscient. If Bran sees Bloodraven as the 3EC we can take his word on it or explore what else we have in the books to support his view. Taking things for granted while reading ASoIaF can be a trap, as in life I guess. GRRM encourages us to question things and observe everything carefully. Because, you know, Winter is coming.

Little Wing, can you link this one again because its pretty much what I suggested about the calendar, that the picture of Bloodraven as tagged as the Three-eyed-Crow only because Bran, who's also in the picture, thinks he's the Crow

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Given we're now so far along, providing a complete set of links is getting a little out of hand, so I'll just, by way of a public service link Heresy 6 with the complete transcript of Old Nan's tales:

Heresy six,

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Little Wing, can you link this one again because its pretty much what I suggested about the calendar, that the picture of Bloodraven as tagged as the Three-eyed-Crow only because Bran, who's also in the picture, thinks he's the Crow

yeah I see it as kind of how, in the appendices, characters are listed with descriptions that we know are not true, but that the characters as of the beginning of that book believe to be true

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Little Wing, can you link this one again because its pretty much what I suggested about the calendar, that the picture of Bloodraven as tagged as the Three-eyed-Crow only because Bran, who's also in the picture, thinks he's the Crow

Of course, here is the interview with a couple of interesting observations as to Bran's paralysis (or rather GRRM's wish not to comment on it, hmm...) and POVs as unreliable narrators.

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Indeed, it would be a bit of a bummer to look up Jon Snow in the list at the back of ADwD to find him described as ex-Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

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Pulled from end of H30

Have you ever compared the pact between the Children of the Forest with the First Men as being similar to the covenant between your god and the Children of Israel?

I'd say that this is a great analogy, especially if it ends up being that every accurance of the Others was because Men did not uphold their end of the Pact... within the Bible, the conceit for all the bad things that occurred to the Hebrews after they settled Judea et al is that they happened because the Hebrew peoples strayed too far from Yahweh and the Covenant (in fact, Moses was forbidden from seeing his people settle in the Promised Land for this reason as well IIRC)

If this is the case, then it helps explain why the Last Hero needed to seek out the Children: the First Men had strayed so far from the Pact that they were no longer in contact with the Children, at all, whatsoever; because of their lack of "faith", the Others come as the enforcers of the Pact; they only leave after the Last Hero finds the Children and reaffirms Man's adherence to the Pact/creates a new Pact.

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Little wing

The fairies were known to make deals with men. Usually they tried to trick them. Sometimes the hero managed to trick the fairies.

I can't think of examples now though. Sorry

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Can someone please point me to this? Thanks.

Right. There is a heretical line of thought (originating with me I have to admit) that Bloodraven is not the Crow, but its servant and that the Crow is a Celtic deity called the Morrigan, which has multiple aspects; maiden, mother and crone (sound familiar?) - and often takes the form of a Crow. Rather than being warged the Crow is in fact the one who is doing all the nudging and manipulating.

Apart from fitting the circumstances, GRRM provides a clue to this in the shape of a short-lived character named Ser Guyard Morrigen, who has a crow banner.

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Right. There is a heretical line of thought (originating with me I have to admit) that Bloodraven is not the Crow, but its servant and that the Crow is a Celtic deity called the Morrigan, which has multiple aspects; maiden, mother and crone (sound familiar?) - and often takes the form of a Crow. Rather than being warged the Crow is in fact the one who is doing all the nudging and manipulating.

Apart from fitting the circumstances, GRRM provides a clue to this in the shape of a short-lived character named Ser Guyard Morrigen, who has a crow banner.

Yes, thanks for the explanation. I knew about the Morrigan, but the notion that about the crow and BR is interesting to be speculated on. Although doesn't either Bran or Coldhands outright state that they are goind to the 3EC in regards to Bloodraven. Still, this doesn't disprove it even if true, and it is at least interesting to talk about.

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Yes, thanks for the explanation. I knew about the Morrigan, but the notion that about the crow and BR is interesting to be speculated on. Although doesn't either Bran or Coldhands outright state that they are goind to the 3EC in regards to Bloodraven. Still, this doesn't disprove it even if true, and it is at least interesting to talk about.

Bran, Jojen, Meera, they all BELIEVE that Bloodraven is the 3EC, and, yes, the evidence does point in that direction; however, it has never been explicitly confirmed by either Martin or Bloodraven/3EC that BR=3EC... in fact, the one time the Bran asks BR if he is the 3EC, BR is rather ambiguous with his answer, which has led Black Crow to carry the banner of the "BR not 3EC" fight

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Pulled from end of H30

I'd say that this is a great analogy, especially if it ends up being that every accurance of the Others was because Men did not uphold their end of the Pact... within the Bible, the conceit for all the bad things that occurred to the Hebrews after they settled Judea et al is that they happened because the Hebrew peoples strayed too far from Yahweh and the Covenant (in fact, Moses was forbidden from seeing his people settle in the Promised Land for this reason as well IIRC)

If this is the case, then it helps explain why the Last Hero needed to seek out the Children: the First Men had strayed so far from the Pact that they were no longer in contact with the Children, at all, whatsoever; because of their lack of "faith", the Others come as the enforcers of the Pact; they only leave after the Last Hero finds the Children and reaffirms Man's adherence to the Pact/creates a new Pact.

The only problem being, though, is that they didn't have a pact until after the Last Hero sought out the Children. The pact was broken when the Andals arrived and the First Men chose to ally with them.

I think Moses was not allowed to see the Promised Land because he disobeyed god by striking the rock (instead of speaking to the rock) and then took credit for the water that came out of the rock (instead of attributing it to god).

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Bran, Jojen, Meera, they all BELIEVE that Bloodraven is the 3EC, and, yes, the evidence does point in that direction; however, it has never been explicitly confirmed by either Martin or Bloodraven/3EC that BR=3EC... in fact, the one time the Bran asks BR if he is the 3EC, BR is rather ambiguous with his answer, which has led Black Crow to carry the banner of the "BR not 3EC" fight

Damn it, I don't have the books with me, and I must confess, I pretty much skipped the last Heresy thread because I didn't have internet access for quite a while and just couldn't keep up with it. It would be awesome if you can provide a quote to this ambigous answer.

Also, the one I was talking about was somewhere in the chapter with "Your Monster, Brandon Stark", I think even really close to the line itself. It was either Coldhands saying or Bran thinking/saying "The Three eyed crow". It would be cool if someone could provide those so we can discuss.

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Bran, Jojen, Meera, they all BELIEVE that Bloodraven is the 3EC, and, yes, the evidence does point in that direction; however, it has never been explicitly confirmed by either Martin or Bloodraven/3EC that BR=3EC... in fact, the one time the Bran asks BR if he is the 3EC, BR is rather ambiguous with his answer, which has led Black Crow to carry the banner of the "BR not 3EC" fight

And I still reckon that their speech patterns and behaviour are quite different. They are certainly connected but that's not quite the same thing as being one and the same. as always GRRM does have a tendency to lead us up the garden path, allowing us to believe things which aint true.

Another case in point, I believe concerns Jon and the Others. Right at the very beginning they were introduced to us as evil incarnate, now we're not so sure. Independently of that, Jon is convinced that they represent a deadly threat and is organising the defence of the Wall or rather the Realms of Men against them, or rather was when the knives went in.

Is he going to wake up just in time to rally the troops against this threat, or is he going to wake up in a much more ambiguous world, where his expectations have been turned on their head and he must go north to resolve matters in a very different way from the one he expected?

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Bran, Jojen, Meera, they all BELIEVE that Bloodraven is the 3EC, and, yes, the evidence does point in that direction; however, it has never been explicitly confirmed by either Martin or Bloodraven/3EC that BR=3EC... in fact, the one time the Bran asks BR if he is the 3EC, BR is rather ambiguous with his answer, which has led Black Crow to carry the banner of the "BR not 3EC" fight

You forgot different speech patterns. :closedeyes: /nerd Edit: whoops, ninja'd by Black Crow!

On a non-heretic note, is Victarion a bit ( and I stress a bit) like Ahab going after/hunting for Dany? Which makes her Moby Dick, heh...

Also, the one I was talking about was somewhere in the chapter with "Your Monster, Brandon Stark", I think even really close to the line itself. It was either Coldhands saying or Bran thinking/saying "The Three eyed crow". It would be cool if someone could provide those so we can discuss.

Here's one, I'll find the other one with Coldhands shortly.

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

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The only problem being, though, is that they didn't have a pact until after the Last Hero sought out the Children. The pact was broken when the Andals arrived and the First Men chose to ally with them.

I think Moses was not allowed to see the Promised Land because he disobeyed god by striking the rock (instead of speaking to the rock) and then took credit for the water that came out of the rock (instead of attributing it to god).

There was the Pact at the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye after the Children shattered the Arm of Dorne, which, according to cannon, occurred roughly 4000 years before the Long Night and I posit that it was this Pact that the First Men broke which caused the Others to appear "for the first time", with the Andals causing the First Men to break with the Second Pact made at the end of the Long Night.

As for Moses, that's still him turning away from Yahweh, so :P

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You forgot different speech patterns. :closedeyes: /nerd Edit: whoops, ninja'd by Black Crow!

On a non-heretic note, is Victarion a bit ( and I stress a bit) like Ahab going after/hunting for Dany? Which makes her Moby Dick, heh...

Here's one, I'll find the other one with Coldhands shortly.

Quote

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“I’m here,” Bran said, “only I’m broken. Will you … will you fix me … my legs, I mean?”

Bran’s eyes filled with tears. We came such a long way. The chamber echoed to the sound of the black river.

“You will never walk again, Bran,” the pale lips promised, “but you will fly.”

I think you have a part of the quote missing... after that first paragraph, doesn't BR respond with something like "Crow... yes, I was called a crow once" and then there's the bit about black of heart and blood or something

but the point is that it could be referring to how he is/once was the 3EC, but also all of those descriptions that BR gives himself could be ascribed to any member of the Night's Watch, of which BR once not only was, but was Lord Commander of.

Now who's the nerd? :cool4:

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