Heresy 31

[Little Wing]

Okay, here's the Coldhands part:

“Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?”

“A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer.” The longhall’s wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

“A monster,” Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. “Your monster, Brandon Stark.”

“Jojen, did you dream this?” Meera asked her brother. “Who is he? What is he? What do we do now?”

“We go with the ranger,” said Jojen. “We have come too far to turn back now, Meera. We would never make it back to the Wall alive. We go with Bran’s monster, or we die.”

Tyryan, I'm having a hard time copy/pasting from the ebook, I've edited it. I hope it's all there now...

Yes, there is a play of words with crow meaning a brother of the Night's Watch.

Edited for really odd copy/paste results... ugh.

[Melifeather]

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

I think the quote you have provided is pretty good evidence that Brynden/Bloodraven used the 3EC to come to Bran in his dreams. I think the 3EC is simply an avatar to communicate with.

Here's a link to a thread that discusses the "your monster, Brandon Stark":

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57302-your-monster-brandon-stark/#entry2690142

There was the Pact at the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye after the Children shattered the Arm of Dorne, which, according to cannon, occurred roughly 4000 years before the Long Night and I posit that it was this Pact that the First Men broke which caused the Others to appear "for the first time", with the Andals causing the First Men to break with the Second Pact made at the end of the Long Night.

As for Moses, that's still him turning away from Yahweh, so :P

OK, I was very confused by your statement, because I believe a slightly different timeline than you. Throwing the actual length of years aside, I believe the Long Night happened when the Arm of Dorne was shattered, that the White Walkers helped extend winter down into Dorne which helped create a sort of ice age and resulting glacier. It was during this time that the Last Hero sought out the Children of the Forest, brokered an agreement, and then offered his own child as a ward as part of the Pact, thus becoming the first person to be called the Night's King. Lastly, I believe that Pact was then later broken when the First Men allied with the Andals.

[Little Wing]

I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell.

This part reminds me of that scene from The Truman Show, when Cristoff (?) reveals himself to Truman...

Edit: link

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think the quote you have provided is pretty good evidence that Brynden/Bloodraven used the 3EC to come to Bran in his dreams. I think the 3EC is simply an avatar to communicate with.

Here's a link to a thread that discusses the "your monster, Brandon Stark":

http://asoiaf.wester...k/#entry2690142

OK, I was very confused by your statement, because I believe a slightly different timeline than you. Throwing the actual length of years aside, I believe the Long Night happened when the Arm of Dorne was shattered, that the White Walkers helped extend winter down into Dorne which helped create a sort of ice age and resulting glacier. It was during this time that the Last Hero sought out the Children of the Forest, brokered an agreement, and then offered his own child as a ward as part of the Pact, thus becoming the first person to be called the Night's King. Lastly, I believe that Pact was then later broken when the First Men allied with the Andals.

Ah, yes, kind of an arguing the semantics thing, except that it's with historical timelines instead of just word choice, where I believe in at least two pacts existing, while you're pretty much set on just one.... different starting points, different paths

[Melifeather]

In the "your monster, Brandon Stark" thread, I found this post, which I quite agree with:

http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry3592133

After reading this forum I was led to suspect that he was referring to himself when he said Brandon Stark, because Bran is almost never called Brandon that I can recall, but not Bran the Builder. I don't know why someone before me hasn't mentioned this theory but the most popular one is that he is the Night's King. If you remember Old Nan's tale, Bran talks about him in A Storm of Swords, he was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who broke his vows and married an Other and produced some sort of twisted offspring. He ruled for 13 years until the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun the King-Beyond-the-Wall worked together to bring him down. At the end of the story, Old Nan remarks that all records of his name were wiped clean, and that some think he was a Bolton, an Umber, a Flint, but really he was a Stark, and his name was Brandon. Old Nan is never wrong, Coldhands is the Night's King, and he thinks of himself as a monster, Brandon Stark. That he happens to be bringing another Brandon Stark to the last greenseer is certainly something.

ETA: I agree he's Brandon Stark, but not the Night's King. I still hold that Brandon Stark was the Last Hero and that his son was the first Night's King.

[Black Crow]

Beaten me to it, but ambiguous it is:

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A… crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you…except in dreams.”

Its ambiguous because although he has been watching Bran and coming to him in dreams – and supposedly long before he fell – he effectively denies at the outset that he is the Crow;

“Once, aye.” Is not the same as yes, especially as he rambles on about the Watch. This suggests that while he has been watching Bran, he's either not the Crow or he's unaware that he appears in the guise of a Crow.

His initial denial tends to the first and it may be that if he is the servant of the Crow/Morrigan then he will appear as her avatar, much as a herald might wear his master's sigil.

[Melifeather]

Another great quote from the "your monster, Brandon Stark" thread:

Don't know if I suggested it here or in one of the heresies before:

Brandon Stark could taste the blood IMHO refers to the prisoner getting his throat sliced in Bran's dream, i.e. I suggest the prisoner is Brandon Stark. That Brandon Stark is now Coldhands - Your monster, Brandon Stark - and hiding his sliced throat.

There are a few Brandon Starks around but because Coldhands describes himself as monster in my train of thought he is Brandon Stark, the Nights King, sacrificed in Winterfell.

And that could tie in to "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell", because if there isn't, the Nights King comes back? Someone who has been murdered at the wall mayhaps?

[Black Crow]

... I believe a slightly different timeline than you. Throwing the actual length of years aside, I believe the Long Night happened when the Arm of Dorne was shattered, that the White Walkers helped extend winter down into Dorne which helped create a sort of ice age and resulting glacier.

The problem with the glacier is:

"The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm."

Its oral history relating to the war between the First Men and the Children, way before the Long Night, and its a tsunami or something very like it, rather than a glacier.

[Little Wing]

In the "your monster, Brandon Stark" thread, I found this post, which I quite agree with:

http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry3592133

After reading this forum I was led to suspect that he was referring to himself when he said Brandon Stark, because Bran is almost never called Brandon that I can recall, but not Bran the Builder. I don't know why someone before me hasn't mentioned this theory but the most popular one is that he is the Night's King. If you remember Old Nan's tale, Bran talks about him in A Storm of Swords, he was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who broke his vows and married an Other and produced some sort of twisted offspring. He ruled for 13 years until the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun the King-Beyond-the-Wall worked together to bring him down. At the end of the story, Old Nan remarks that all records of his name were wiped clean, and that some think he was a Bolton, an Umber, a Flint, but really he was a Stark, and his name was Brandon. Old Nan is never wrong, Coldhands is the Night's King, and he thinks of himself as a monster, Brandon Stark. That he happens to be bringing another Brandon Stark to the last greenseer is certainly something.

ETA: I agree he's Brandon Stark, but not the Night's King. I still hold that Brandon Stark was the Last Hero and that his son was the first Night's King.

When Bran says "A monster" he's referring to Bloodraven (they are talking about him, not Coldhands), so When Coldhands answers "Your monster, Brandon Stark" he means Bloodraven is Bran's monster. Why didn't he say Bran? Well, they are not that familiar with each other, I guess. Makes that specific line more grave too, more "official".

[Tyryan Lannister]

When Bran says "A monster" he's referring to Bloodraven (they are talking about him, not Coldhands), so When Coldhands answers "Your monster, Brandon Stark" he means Bloodraven is Bran's monster. Why didn't he say Bran? Well, they are not that familiar with each other, I guess. Makes that specific line more grave too, more "official".

Really? I thought that they were talking about who Coldhands was, Bran says something like "he doesn't eat/sleep because he's dead. He's a monster." to which CH responds "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

[Black Crow]

Bran is after all Brandon Stark and referred to as such formally - usually when being scolded :cool4:

[Melifeather]

The problem with the glacier is:

"The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm."

Its oral history relating to the war between the First Men and the Children, way before the Long Night, and its a tsunami or something very like it, rather than a glacier.

It could be a tsunami. I wouldn't discard that as a possibility. It's just that I was under the impression that the Last Hero went searching for the Children during a long winter. A long winter would freeze water.

When Bran says "A monster" he's referring to Bloodraven (they are talking about him, not Coldhands), so When Coldhands answers "Your monster, Brandon Stark" he means Bloodraven is Bran's monster. Why didn't he say Bran? Well, they are not that familiar with each other, I guess. Makes that specific line more grave too, more "official".

alienarea said something that resonates with me, and that was my second quote that I posted, regarding when Bran was looking through history and saw the man getting his neck sliced and then it stated, "Brandon Stark could taste the blood". If you got your neck slit you probably would taste your own blood. So, I think that putting those two quotes together are strong evidence that Coldhands is Brandon Stark, the same one credited with building the Wall, because as you all know my opinion, it was Brandon Stark that was overthrown, and his bastard took over Winterfell, got legitimized by allying with the Andals, and then the Wall was built. I know I cannot prove this with the text yet, but I think all the clues are there.

[armidil0]

But why is he "Brandon Starks"'s monster? Wouldn't he be BR's monster?

[Little Wing]

Really? I thought that they were talking about who Coldhands was, Bran says something like "he doesn't eat/sleep because he's dead. He's a monster." to which CH responds "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

Yes. The quote is up thread. They ask Coldhands who the 3EC is and then Coldhands goes on with his list to which Bran gives his opinion by adding, "A monster". The interesting thing to the passage is that later Jojen says "we go with the ranger" (...) "we go with Bran's monster". And earlier they talked about how Old Nan said monsters couldn't pass the Wall, when talking about Coldhands. So, GRRM has purposefully used the term monster for both Bloodraven and Coldhands. Grrr :laugh:

ETA: As to who Coldhands is, I'm also inclined to think it's the one whose throat was cut in Bran's vision. But, we shall see, as to all things GRRM, more than one option is possible and has hints in the books for it to be discussed...

[Melifeather]

Too bad Coldhands didn't give a little bow, sort of like, "your monster, Brandon Stark, (bows) at your service". That would have made it clearer! :rofl:

Jojen clarifies that Coldhands is "the monster", but I think the use of "Brandon" instead of "Bran" is our little nugget, our little tidbit that this is the actual identity of Coldhands.

[armidil0]

On the moses thing, no I didn't. That's a good catch. Would that make the Old Tongue hebrew? The language of God? And there would be a TON of references and connections/parallels to past disasters in asoiaf and what is in the (old) testament. The God of the old testament was a mean mofo.

[Melifeather]

On the moses thing, no I didn't. That's a good catch. Would that make the Old Tongue hebrew? The language of God? And there would be a TON of references and connections/parallels to past disasters in asoiaf and what is in the (old) testament. The God of the old testament was a mean mofo.

No doubt! Moses was a badass mofo too! lol

[Little Wing]

Too bad Coldhands didn't give a little bow, sort of like, "your monster, Brandon Stark, (bows) at your service". That would have made it clearer! :rofl:

Jojen clarifies that Coldhands is "the monster", but I think the use of "Brandon" instead of "Bran" is our little nugget, our little tidbit that this is the actual identity of Coldhands.

Jojen's sentence is ambiguous, but the sentence "Your monster, Brandon Stark" follows directly talk of Bloodraven and refers to him. It's grammar not speculation, but hey, knock yourself out :lol:

ETA: just one more thought, even Jojen's sentence doesn't have to be ambiguous - we go with the ranger, we go with Bloodraven/Bran's monster - there's no turning back (Meera was suggesting it, and that was what Jojen told her).

[FittleLinger]

Yes. The quote is up thread. They ask Coldhands who the 3EC is and then Coldhands goes on with his list to which Bran gives his opinion by adding, "A monster". The interesting thing to the passage is that later Jojen says "we go with the ranger" (...) "we go with Bran's monster". And earlier they talked about how Old Nan said monsters couldn't pass the Wall, when talking about Coldhands. So, GRRM has purposefully used the term monster for both Bloodraven and Coldhands. Grrr :laugh:

ETA: As to who Coldhands is, I'm also inclined to think it's the one whose throat was cut in Bran's vision. But, we shall see, as to all things GRRM, more than one option is possible and has hints in the books for it to be discussed...

That's the thing, this can be resolved to mean so many things, maybe all of them at once! But yes, I think the monster is referring to Coldhands. First, Bran never thinks of the crow from his dreams as a monster, then Coldhands describes him as "a dreamer, a wizard, the last greenseer" - those sound almost beautiful, it is a weird conclusion to state "a monster" after this description. Then, we get the "a monster" conclusion after Bran sees that Coldhands cannot pass the wall, and Old Nan has, as you stated, always said monsters cannot pass. They get out and the trees are full of ravens screaming. It's creepy and scary.

And lastly, Jojen says they should go with Bran's monster, and I trust little grandpa's judgement of the conversation and who Bran meant by monster.

Now, about the Brandon Stark, there are different explanations, probably more than 1 is correct and GRRM is deliberately leaving it kind of ambigous.

[Black Crow]

Up and down the bloody stairs...

Its complicated and ambiguous:

Meera: "Show us your face."

The ranger made no move to obey.

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat....

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark"

"Yours" the raven echoed, from his shoulder...

"Jojen, did you dream this?" Meera asked her brother. "Who is he? What is he? What do we do now?"

"We go with the ranger," said Jojen. "We have come too far... We go with Bran's monster, or we die."

Now then. It reads at first as though Bran says "A monster" in response to Coldhand's talking about Bloodraven (and yes he does link Bloodraven with the Three-eyed crow), but then Jojen says that they should go with Bran's monster, not to him, which indicates that he at least understands Coldhands to be talking about himself in the sense of yes I'm a monster but I'm on your side, which is consistent with his knowing that his body is dead.

While on the subject and without offering an opinion on his identity I'd rule out his being the sacrifice Bran later sees before the heart tree. Having your throat cut does nothing for your powers of speech as the late Catelyn Stark demonstrates.