Melifeather Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 How about if we move on?Tyryan brought up blood magic and the First men perhaps being practicers. This legend of child sacrifice begs discussion, or has Heresy already discussed this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Agree with this. Bran was still on the subject of Coldhands when he said monster.I agree....sorry, I meant to move on, but if the last thing Bran said prior to saying "monster" was "he's dead", then he was still talking about Coldhands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Well, that would just be poor writing then... in the middle of an engaging conversation Bran is just being...random.The scene with Mormont's raven and the Old Bear - Mormont's eyes never left Jon because if it were the raven's the sentence would be "its eyes never left Jon" instead of "his (Mormont's) eyes never left Jon".Indeed it would, and if you are saying that if Bran is referring to CH is poor writing, then that's a point. I would agree it's slightly weird, but would disagree it's poor, but whatever, others will agree with you. The point was grammar, because grammar is so finite. Now that we've taken grammar out of the way, we can still present points of view and discuss, because "grammar" as a point was just a big period on the discussion, and I think this discussion is still open.As for the Jon and raven, the raven has been referred to both 'him' and 'it' throughout the book if I recall correctly, so that's open to discussion as well. I think this one is delibarate though.Anyway, I think these two questions should be adressed to Martin at some point. Based on his reaction we will be able to determine I guess - if they were not intentional he will maybe say "What, this was bothering you? It is 'so and so'" and if they were meant to be ambigous he will answer something like "What did you think, how did you interpret it?" or something to that cheeky effect.ETA: sorry, Feather Crystal is right, let's move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Why child sacrifice specifically? Human sacrifice is a difficult and uncomfortable subject to begin with...Agree with this. Bran was still on the subject of Coldhands when he said monster.The horror...the horror! :laugh:ETA: Yep, agree, lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 yay! moving along! now off to work, please don't be too active without me!really, really don't want to have 5 pages to read when I get back ! :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacker Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 How about if we move 30 heresies x ~20 pages x 20 posts... How did you guys reach > 12.000 posts if you move on all the time? : p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 Given that we're not unadjacent to a whole thread devoted to Coldhands and Monsters I'm with the vote to move on, but would make two parting observations. First I think the confusion arises because there are two quite different conversations going on simultaneously. On the one hand Bran is trying to figure out who or what Coldhands really is, and on the other Jojen and Meera are talking across them asking where they're going. This is very good writing which reflects what often happens in real conversations, but it is confusing and I think that the confusion is deliberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 yay! moving along! now off to work, please don't be too active without me!really, really don't want to have 5 pages to read when I get back ! :cool4:Four pages in three hours - I sometimes feel like this thread is like the kitchen at a party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidil0 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 30 heresies x ~20 pages x 20 posts... How did you guys reach > 12.000 posts if you move on all the time? : pThere's a lot to talk about. No need to dwell on grammar when we're finding the Ultimate Crackpot that was prophesized to explain all aSoIaF and bring other crackpots to shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 30 heresies x ~20 pages x 20 posts... How did you guys reach > 12.000 posts if you move on all the time? : pActually its more than that because some episodes stretch to 21 pages and occasionally more :cool4: . As I've just said, its a genuinely exciting thread where a lot of good ideas get batted about; proper brainstorming stuff - that and we're a bit eclectic in our heresies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Four pages in three hours - I sometimes feel like this thread is like the kitchen at a party.We're like a cool coffee shop :smoking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 Why child sacrifice specifically? Human sacrifice is a difficult and uncomfortable subject to begin with...Traditionally innocence is reckoned to increase the potency of the magic, no doubt because they lack the toxins swilling around in the blood of we sinners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The reason why I brought up child sacrifice, is because it was the excuse provided for overthrowing the Night's King, and I posit that it's a twist on the actual facts. I believe the original Pact included the First Men providing wards (their children) to the Children of the Forest. All of Westeros still practices wards as well as guest right. I think these traditions originated with the Pact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidil0 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Anyone want to make a connection with the mayans and human sacrifice? I'm not much learned on it except it was a big part of their culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Traditionally innocence is reckoned to increase the potency of the magic, no doubt because they lack the toxins swilling around in the blood of we sinners.Oh, right, the virgin sacrifices and all that... no wonder I forgot about it :ack: I'll probably skip that particular discussion...yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 IIRC, the mayans sacrificed to their sun god, because they believed that if they didn't, that the sun would not rise again. We touched on this at the end of Heresy 19 going into 20, I believe?*ETA - No, that cannot be right....I'm trying to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Yeah, to make the sun shine, rains fall,crops grow... the usual... but wasn't there a time there was no food (bad crops) and they sacrificed on a massive scale to appease their god?Though I don't see how this ties in with the books and heresy but hey, enlighten me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 The reason why I brought up child sacrifice, is because it was the excuse provided for overthrowing the Night's King, and I posit that it's a twist on the actual facts. I believe the original Pact included the First Men providing wards (their children) to the Children of the Forest. All of Westeros still practices wards as well as guest right. I think these traditions originated with the Pact.Actually what Old Nan says is:For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.In other words he was running the Watch (or whatever they really called themselves in those days) in some sort of alliance with the Others/Sidhe. Freeing the Watch from bondage sounds a bit like a coup, but either way its clear that its only after his fall it was discovered he'd been sacrificing to the Others - which we take to mean doing a Craster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidil0 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Mayans sacrificing to their Sun god to keep the sun rise everyday?Mel sacrificing to R'Hllor (god of fire) to get power, which would cause a never ending summer?I see a small connection. I might wikipedia some stuff up when I get home.Craster sacrificing his sons to have the Others leave him alone, (another old testament reference would be the lambsblood on the door so that adonai passed over them and only killed hte egyptions first born). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The reason why I brought up child sacrifice, is because it was the excuse provided for overthrowing the Night's King, and I posit that it's a twist on the actual facts. I believe the original Pact included the First Men providing wards (their children) to the Children of the Forest. All of Westeros still practices wards as well as guest right. I think these traditions originated with the Pact.Hey, this made me thinking, has anyone made the connection that Craster's children (wasn't there speculation that the Night's king practiced the same) are literally "children of the forest". Something there?Sorry if I'm late to the party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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