Why didn't Tywin build any alliances for House Lannister?

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

As we see in AGOT, while the Lannisters have been very ambitious in snapping up official posts in the royal court in King's Landing, they are isolated when it comes to alliances with the Great Houses.

As at the start of the WOFK, Robb Stark has the potential support of House Stark (his house), House Tully (his mother's house) and House Arryn (his uncle and aunt and cousin).

Renly and Stannis have the support of the Stormlords and House Tyrell (Renly is Lord of Storm's End and Loras was his squire, Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone).

House Martell will never ally with House Lannister. House Greyjoy might.

If not for a series of events, the Lannisters would be completely screwed - they are friendless. Why didn't an astute lord like Tywin spend the intervening years of Robert's reigns trying to build some alliances?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Lannisters have money to "buy" friends, which is what they did — hire sellswords like the Brave Companions.

ETA: Also, don't underestimate the power of infiltrating the bureaucracy. That's how the Viet Cong did it. Seriously.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Plus it would seem like House Lannister needed help. Something that Tywin would be loathe to admit. So, when he has the king's ear to get him various royal posts, he would rather just do that than ally with others.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

The Lannisters have money to "buy" friends, which is what they did — hire sellswords like the Brave Companions.

Yeah, but the logistics of shipping bought sellswords over from Essos in large numbers is extremely difficult, especially all the way to the Westerland on the west coast of Westeros. Tywin employed the Brave Companions as small-time raiders in tight units, but you'd need something like the Golden Company on your side to make up for not having any other Great Houses as allies.

Robb was seriously in a powerhouse position at the start of the WOFK, Stark-Tully-Arryn, no way Tywin could have beaten that. Why didn't Tywin try to counteract that bloc in the 15 years of Robert's reign and build up his own alliance network in Westeros?

Plus it would seem like House Lannister needed help. Something that Tywin would be loathe to admit. So, when he has the king's ear to get him various royal posts, he would rather just do that than ally with others.

But they did need help to win the war, and Tywin knew that - "our alliance with the Tyrells is what broke Stannis Baratheon, and it must be tempered and strengthened" (paraphrasing, don't have exact quote).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, but the logistics of shipping bought sellswords over from Essos in large numbers is extremely difficult, especially all the way to the Westerland on the west coast of Westeros. Tywin employed the Brave Companions as small-time raiders in tight units, but you'd need something like the Golden Company on your side to make up for not having any other Great Houses as allies.

Robb was seriously in a powerhouse position at the start of the WOFK, Stark-Tully-Arryn, no way Tywin could have beaten that. Why didn't Tywin try to counteract that bloc in the 15 years of Robert's reign and build up his own alliance network in Westeros?

How was Tywin supposed to know during those 15 years that one day Robb Stark would declare northern independence, that Ned Stark would be executed and that the country would erupt into civil war? The Lannisters were the de facto royal family and had members at every level of government, the heirs to the throne, the queen, etc. I don't see any reason for Tywin not to think the family was set up pretty well.

[King of Swords]

Tywin isn't a miracle worker. The Lannisters have an all around bad reputation, anyone would be hesitant to have anything to do with them.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

How was Tywin supposed to know during those 15 years that one day Robb Stark would declare northern independence, that Ned Stark would be executed and that the country would erupt into civil war? The Lannisters were the de facto royal family and had members at every level of government, the heirs to the throne, the queen, etc. I don't see any reason for Tywin not to think the family was set up pretty well.

He couldn't have known that would happen, but he did know about the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc, and he did know about the relationship between Renly and the Tyrells, and he did know about the animosity the Martells had for him.

How could he think having a queen and an heir in King's Landing of a decentralised realm like the Seven Kingdoms is enough to counter these blocs? (He must also have known that de-facto becoming the royal family would have made the other Great Houses very resentful and less likely to support Joffrey when the time came, as the Lannisters are hogging all the official posts and siphoning power to themselves in the regime). As with every royal succession, House Lannister needed friends to ensure Joffrey's ascension one day, but Tywin didn't see to that. I'm very curious as to why.

Its funny because before Robert's Rebellion, Tywin was very judicious in building up Lannister alliances - trying to arrange the Cersei-Rhaegar and Jaime-Lysa marriages, marrying Cersei to Robert.

He's also very competent in building up the Lannister-Tyrell alliance after the WOFK is over, not slighting them, giving them positions on the Small Council, and (he thinks) mollifying other Great Houses - renaming Sweetrobin Warden of the East, giving the Martells a seat on the Small Council, considering a Cersei-Balon or Cersei-Theon marriage, naming Roose Bolton Warden of the North, etc.

Where was all this competent alliance building in the 15 years before? The lack of it left House Lannister very vulnerable.

[Summer is Ending]

Tyrion thought he had built plenty of alliances anyways. Maybe it's just one of those things that happen offpage.

Tommen’s rule is bolstered by all of the alliances that my lord father built so carefully, but soon enough she will destroy them, every one. Land and raise your banners, and men will flock to your cause. Lords great and small, and smallfolk too.

[danm_999]

He couldn't have known that would happen, but he did know about the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc,

Which he attempts to forstall by offering to foster Robert Arryn, something he'd apparently never done before, which Jon Arryn initially agrees to. He's trying to win over the next generation of Arryns to the Lannisters.

and he did know about the relationship between Renly and the Tyrells, and he did know about the animosity the Martells had for him.

Over the years he'd tried to offer Tyrion's hand to the Martells, as he tells us in ASoS, but was turned down.

In fact, he also offered Tyrion to the Hightowers, Royces, Florents and Tully, but none wanted him.

In addition, by the beginning of AGoT, House Lannister controlled two Wardenships (West and East), controlled the Grand Maester, was bankrolling the Iron Throne, had a presence in the Kingsguard and had relatives stationed in important Maester positions (Theramore in White Harbour). Tyrek was married to a Hayford, Lancel was the King's Squire, and the remaining Lannisters were too young to do much else with.

So what more can be done?

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

Tyrion thought he had built plenty of alliances anyways. Maybe it's just one of those things that happen offpage.

Tommen’s rule is bolstered by all of the alliances that my lord father built so carefully, but soon enough she will destroy them, every one. Land and raise your banners, and men will flock to your cause. Lords great and small, and smallfolk too.

Those alliances were built by Tywin after the WOFK was basically over, which the Lannisters won largely by a series of unfortunate events. A political genius like Tywin should not have to rely on things like that, he should have had alliances in place beforehand.

[Castel]

As we see in AGOT, while the Lannisters have been very ambitious in snapping up official posts in the royal court in King's Landing, they are isolated when it comes to alliances with the Great Houses.

As at the start of the WOFK, Robb Stark has the potential support of House Stark (his house), House Tully (his mother's house) and House Arryn (his uncle and aunt and cousin).

Renly and Stannis have the support of the Stormlords and House Tyrell (Renly is Lord of Storm's End and Loras was his squire, Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone).

House Martell will never ally with House Lannister. House Greyjoy might.

If not for a series of events, the Lannisters would be completely screwed - they are friendless. Why didn't an astute lord like Tywin spend the intervening years of Robert's reigns trying to build some alliances?

Who is he supposed to ally with? The Starks, Tullys and Arryns are out. Honestly, he speed-chessed his way into having Cersei be queen and that's a coup in and of itself. He needed nothing else at the time. Hell, the Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance was only cemented so quick because of war, in times of peace it's less useful.

He couldn't have known that would happen, but he did know about the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc, and he did know about the relationship between Renly and the Tyrells, and he did know about the animosity the Martells had for him.

Why would he give a shit about those blocs? Joff'll inherit and hopefully try to win them over. What are the Martells gonna do? Ride all the way to the Westerlands and tell him off?

[Ironkiller]

He married his daughter to the King... The Tyrell-Baratheon alliance would've been a Tyrell-Baratheon-Lannister alliance, if Cersei didn't scew things up by fucking her brother, and raising a psycopath son.

Maybe even a Stark alliance, if Sansa trully wed the king's son.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

Over the years he'd tried to offer Tyrion's hand to the Martells, as he tells us in ASoS, but was turned down.

In fact, he also offered Tyrion to the Hightowers, Royces, Florents and Tully, but none wanted him.

So what more can be done?

Who is he supposed to ally with? The Starks, Tullys and Arryns are out. Honestly, he speed-chessed his way into having Cersei be queen and that's a coup in and of itself. He needed nothing else at the time. Hell, the Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance was only cemented so quick because of war, in times of peace it's less useful.

He married his daughter to the King... The Tyrell-Baratheon alliance would've been a Tyrell-Baratheon-Lannister alliance, if Cersei didn't scew things up by fucking her brother, and raising a psycopath son.

Yeah, I guess he was dealt a shitty hand alliance-wise by Cersei and Jaime fucking it up and the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc already being in place. I was thinking more trying to forge alliances with the Reach and the Iron Islands using nephews and nieces (since nobody wanted Tyrion), which he is clearly good at and knows the importance of after the war.

Snapping up bureaucratic positions is great in a centralised state or during peacetime, but it doesn't help much in a decentralised feudal state (especially during wartime). Having the Grand Maester in your pocket isn't much good when four entire kingdoms of Westeros could potentially line up against you.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Cersei's marriage to Roberts should have acted as an alliance with House Baratheon. He couldn't have predicted that Cersei would kill Robert so soon to cover up an incestuous affair, or that the youngest Baratheon brother, with no real claim, would declare himself King.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

He couldn't have known that would happen, but he did know about the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc, and he did know about the relationship between Renly and the Tyrells, and he did know about the animosity the Martells had for him.

How could he think having a queen and an heir in King's Landing of a decentralised realm like the Seven Kingdoms is enough to counter these blocs? (He must also have known that de-facto becoming the royal family would have made the other Great Houses very resentful and less likely to support Joffrey when the time came, as the Lannisters are hogging all the official posts and siphoning power to themselves in the regime). As with every royal succession, House Lannister needed friends to ensure Joffrey's ascension one day, but Tywin didn't see to that. I'm very curious as to why.

I simply don't think Tywin considered them a threat while the Lannisters were in power. If he had known Cersei's children were illegitimate he might have prepared better. But let's look at the major houses.

Stark: Ned kept himself uninvolved in political affairs. He came from the North once after Robert won the throne and that was to help Tywin (Ned didn't like it, but he obeyed).

Arryn: Personally, I don't think Jon was a great Hand. He didn't stop the Lannisters from practically taking the throne themselves. Tywin was a master politician. Jon was not. And when Jon started to step out of line, he quickly arranged for Sweet Robin's fostering.

Tully: Holster was sick for a long time I think. Besides, the Tullys were kind of followers in the war (even later, they followed Robb in his rebellion).

Greyjoy: The burning of Lannisport killed any alliance there.

Martell: I think Tywin underestimates Doran. Even if he didn't, unleashing the Mountain one Ellia killed any alliance there.

Tyrell: Again, I think Tywin underestimated them going by his conversation with Tyrion.

Baratheon (Renly): Already allied with the Tyrells and tried to get Robert to take Marg as a wife instead of Cersei. Though he probably should have been shaping Renly as soon as Robert took the throne.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

Tywin Lannister didn't become what he is by making alliances; he become what he is by beeing a merciless son of a bitch, through fear and terror.

who are you, the proud lord said...

[Summer is Ending]

Those alliances were built by Tywin after the WOFK was basically over, which the Lannisters won largely by a series of unfortunate events. A political genius like Tywin should not have to rely on things like that, he should have had alliances in place beforehand.

I wouldn't really describe most of that as being built carefully suggesting that he's talking about even earlier alliances. One of those things though, nothing specific is mentioned. One most telling way is to see who's married to who or who's engaged to who in the Lannister family since that's always the first and most basic way to make alliances. Who is Kevan married to? Tywin did try to get a foothold into the Riverlands first with Kingslayer and then I believe even Tyrion who he offered to anyone and everyone.

And just because you want to make alliances doesn't mean people want to do the same with you. Tywin has a bad reputation in Westeros and has given the Lannisters a name not to be trusted.

“Gentler than the Lannisters,” murmured Lady Oakheart with a bitter smile, “is drier than the sea.”

That's just one of the more pleasant ways people have of describing Tywin. As much as people talk about how awesome possum he is for destroying two other Houses root and branch think of how well you would sleep at night wondering if someone like that might gain power over you. I've always been of the opinion that would have come back to haunt him no matter what else happened. And for all the talk of Tyrell ambition I always wonder if they simply trying to stop him from gaining too much power.

[Castel]

I simply don't think Tywin considered them a threat while the Lannisters were in power. If he had known Cersei's children were illegitimate he might have prepared better. But let's look at the major houses.

Stark: Ned kept himself uninvolved in political affairs. He came from the North once after Robert won the throne and that was to help Tywin (Ned didn't like it, but he obeyed).

Arryn: Personally, I don't think Jon was a great Hand. He didn't stop the Lannisters from practically taking the throne themselves. Tywin was a master politician. Jon was not. And when Jon started to step out of line, he quickly arranged for Sweet Robin's fostering.

Tully: Holster was sick for a long time I think. Besides, the Tullys were kind of followers in the war (even later, they followed Robb in his rebellion).

Greyjoy: The burning of Lannisport killed any alliance there.

Martell: I think Tywin underestimates Doran. Even if he didn't, unleashing the Mountain one Ellia killed any alliance there.

Tyrell: Again, I think Tywin underestimated them going by his conversation with Tyrion.

Baratheon (Renly): Already allied with the Tyrells and tried to get Robert to take Marg as a wife instead of Cersei. Though he probably should have been shaping Renly as soon as Robert took the throne.

Also, Joff is a Baratheon, he can have some pull with that group unless he does something extremely stupid (like murdering Ned). He can marry one of them or a Tyrell to shore up alliances while he waits for Cersei to die and for him to inherit the Westerlands, which he could give to Tommen and get him to marry someone else in the group. There's no reason the emnity current situation should exist for more than one generation.

That's just one of the more pleasant ways people have of describing Tywin. As much as people talk about how awesome possum he is for destroying two other Houses root and branch think of how well you would sleep at night wondering if someone like that might gain power over you. I've always been of the opinion that would have come back to haunt him no matter what else happened. And for all the talk of Tyrell ambition I always wonder if they simply trying to stop him from gaining too much power.

As Roose Bolton proves, people aren't afraid of brutal men, but needlessly brutal men. Tywin destroyed two houses, but he never went further than that. He went to King's Landing and had a successful turn (if only in PR terms) as Hand. Him gaining power is not something to be feared in and of itself unless you plan to mess with his interests.

[danm_999]

Yeah, I guess he was dealt a shitty hand alliance-wise by Cersei and Jaime fucking it up and the Stark-Tully-Arryn bloc already being in place. I was thinking more trying to forge alliances with the Reach and the Iron Islands using nephews and nieces (since nobody wanted Tyrion).

Well, excluding the Genna-Emmon Frey nephews and nieces, who he doesn't have control over, Tywin has six nieces and nephews. Tyrek was married off to a Crownlander, Joy Hill is a bastard, so no good for forging alliances, which leaves Janei (who is two), and Kevan's sons; Willem, Martyn and Lancel.

Ser Kevan appears to be calling the shots on who they marry, since he mentions that he declines the Westerlings offer for Willem, and Ser Kevan appears to want to let them serve as squires and be knighted before marrying them off. Though I imagine if Tywin really wanted, he could have leaned on Kevan, but it seems a bit of an overreach given how secure the Lannister position seems otherwise.

That said, when I play the Crusader Kings 2 Game of Thrones mod, I will indeed rush around arranging betrothals even for babies like nobody's business.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I simply don't think Tywin considered them a threat while the Lannisters were in power. If he had known Cersei's children were illegitimate he might have prepared better. But let's look at the major houses.

Stark: Ned kept himself uninvolved in political affairs. He came from the North once after Robert won the throne and that was to help Tywin (Ned didn't like it, but he obeyed).

Arryn: Personally, I don't think Jon was a great Hand. He didn't stop the Lannisters from practically taking the throne themselves. Tywin was a master politician. Jon was not. And when Jon started to step out of line, he quickly arranged for Sweet Robin's fostering.

Tully: Holster was sick for a long time I think. Besides, the Tullys were kind of followers in the war (even later, they followed Robb in his rebellion).

Greyjoy: The burning of Lannisport killed any alliance there.

Martell: I think Tywin underestimates Doran. Even if he didn't, unleashing the Mountain one Ellia killed any alliance there.

Tyrell: Again, I think Tywin underestimated them going by his conversation with Tyrion.

Baratheon (Renly): Already allied with the Tyrells and tried to get Robert to take Marg as a wife instead of Cersei. Though he probably should have been shaping Renly as soon as Robert took the throne.

Tywin should have been trying to bring the Arryns in close a lot sooner - the Hand and his son, good friends to have.

Any bitterness over the Burning of Lannisport would be on the Lannister side, but Tywin clearly harbors none (very odd). He could have put feelers out regarding the potential of an alliance using Asha and Victarion (unmarried/non-priest Greyjoys at hand).

Tywin underestimated the Tyrells during Robert's reign, but certainly not after the WOFK. He should have been working on them sooner. Ditto for Renly (which you noted).

The Martells and Tullys by themselves he can ignore, which he did. But I still think a Lannister-Tully alliance would have been extremely powerful and equal to a Baratheon-Tyrell alliance.

That said, when I play the Crusader Kings 2 Game of Thrones mod, I will indeed rush around arranging betrothals even for babies like nobody's business.

Hah, good idea!