Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Lykos]

<snip>

Not exactly the mark of a socially considerate lover! This does come across as an over compensating bit of crotch display: 'hey! I'm more than a bean counter!'.

<snip>

I often ask myself wether Littlefinger is even aware of how these remarks are received, since so far they´ve helped his tactic of staying under the radar / not being perceived as a serious threat.

"Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege." So he has no cause to change his infantile boasting.

And aren´t beans a symbol of fertility? Only that they also cause digestive trouble. ^_^

ETA: Butterbumps, I forgot to thank you - again. :dunce:

(a) this was the most uncompressably talky chapter in history.

Leigh Butler

[Blisscraft]

Well done, BB! I will reread and check back in later.

As for LF, I don't think he gets that nickname only from his "Fingers." Anyone who boasts that much about his conquests is lacking more than good manners.

[the Scorpion Knight]

a couple of questions:

isn't by the time of this chapter balon already dead?

could the kraken not also be euron?

how well informed is tywin about the north, stannis stubborness? his word seem to indicate he's VERY ignorant.

how suspicous is he about the martells? the reach people already seem to smell trouble (right for the wrong reasons it seems imho).

could it be LF suggested tyrion because he thought tywin wouldn't listen to him or because he thought the iron bank felt insulted by meeting a dwarf?

[Winterfellian]

Great post BB! I do interpreted the following a little different from you:

Not realizing that the whole conversation was a set=up, the other lords were “bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they’d been shorn, so it fell to Tyrion to object.”

I have always interpreted it as if the bethrothal was decided between Tywin and the Reach Lords leaving both Tyrion and Cersei in the dark. When LF boasted of bedding Lysa and holding the key to the Vale is Cersei (even if it is in her classy Cersei manner) that objects:

Bedding is not wedding. Even a cow like Lysa might know that difference

As noted, in a very Tywin like fashion Tyrion had remain quite during most of the meeting. After Cersei's objection Tyrion notices the following:

Tyrion noted the look that passed netween Paxter Redwyne and Mace Tyrell

After the look the lords accepted LF's arrangements to Lysa better. At first I thought that the look was because they understood, like Tyrion, that the Harrenhal title wasn't as empty as it seemed at first. Now I wonder if the look was as if to confirm that they were on cue to start voicing their approbation to a preconceived understanding. I have noted before that Tywin is shifting the power base of both his children to his own. (furthermore, the fact that Tywin now seats in the King's place speaks tons of it) I think that since both Tyrion and Cersei were the only ones to speak against the match is confirmation that they were both in the dark here as another form of control by Tywin. I thinks is interesting how Tywin operates them both-council and family in this aspect. As Tyrion and Cersei were not in the know regarding LF arrangements, by the end of the chapter the council is granted the same treatment when Tywin dismissed them to discuss "family matters". With both council and family as Tyrion notes: Theres's something he's not saying. By refraining to share all information but keeping part of it to himself, Tywin is making sure to stay above them all. This is not a far cry with Tyrion's own moves when he first got to KG and started working to erode Cersei's power base and only feeding the council certain information.

[butterbumps!]

a couple of questions:

isn't by the time of this chapter balon already dead?

could the kraken not also be euron?

how well informed is tywin about the north, stannis stubborness? his word seem to indicate he's VERY ignorant.

how suspicous is he about the martells? the reach people already seem to smell trouble (right for the wrong reasons it seems imho).

could it be LF suggested tyrion because he thought tywin wouldn't listen to him or because he thought the iron bank felt insulted by meeting a dwarf?

The text said specifically "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken."

After the look the lords accepted LF's arrangements to Lysa better. At first I thought that the look was because they understood, like Tyrion, that the Harrenhal title wasn't as empty as it seemed at first. Now I wonder if the look was as if to confirm that they were on cue to start voicing their approbation to a preconceived understanding. I have noted before that Tywin is shifting the power base of both his children to his own. (furthermore, the fact that Tywin now seats in the King's place speaks tons of it) I think that since both Tyrion and Cersei were the only ones to speak against the match is confirmation that they were both in the dark here as another form of control by Tywin. I thinks is interesting how Tywin operates them both-council and family in this aspect. As Tyrion and Cersei were not in the know regarding LF arrangements, by the end of the chapter the council is granted the same treatment when Tywin dismissed them to discuss "family matters". With both council and family as Tyrion notes: Theres's something he's not saying. By refraining to share all information but keeping part of it to himself, Tywin is making sure to stay above them all. This is not a far cry with Tyrion's own moves when he first got to KG and started working to erode Cersei's power base and only feeding the council certain information.

I think that look the Reach lords exchanged between them was a "wtf" look, honestly. Tyrion notes the con that's just happened, and how the Reach lords don't understand that they've been conned. I think Tywin kept everyone but Kevan in the dark about that decision. I agree he's transferring his children's power to himself, but I don't believe the Reach lords were already privy to the arrangement.

[Ragnorak]

Nicely done BB. Not an easy chapter at all.

I think we see signs of the spiritual rebirth Blisscraft brought up.

Lord Tywin’s chain of hands made a golden glitter against the deep wine velvet of his tunic.

and seated himself in the king’s place at the head of the long table, between his daughter and his brother.

First Tyrion no longer harps on the chain being his. While I liked the maester association, what I picked up on mostly was his seat is opposed to his father's and also in a place of opposition to the King's seat. Tywin is not seated between Tyrion's sister and his uncle but Tywin's daughter and brother. Tyrion is not seeing himself as part of this family. Butterbumps pointed out how sympathetic Tyrion is here and I think a great part of that is that he is, at least at this point in time, rejecting his Lannister nature.

What to make of the praise of Tyrion?

“That chain of yours, that was cunning,” Mace Tyrell had said in a jolly tone, and Lord Redwyne nodded and said, “Quite so, quite so, my lord of Highgarden speaks for all of us,” and very cheerfully too.

Mace Tyrell’s smile was jovial, but behind it Tyrion sensed contempt. “Perhaps you’d best leave the fighting to fighters,” said the Lord of Highgarden. “Better men than you have lost great armies in the Mountains of the Moon, or shattered them against the Bloody Gate. We know your worth, my lord, no need to tempt fate.”

“Lancel has told me how brave you were, Tyrion. He speaks very highly of you.”

Kevan's praise I assume is completely sincere and also strongly influenced by his cited source lancel.

I know Lummel believes the Tyrells have ulterior motives for praising Tyrion. Here the praise is public so that could fit with an agenda and Tyrion senses contempt in the latter portion. Is Mace in on the assassination plot? What about Rowan and Redwyne? I doubt anyone of them but Mace would know and the Queen of Thorns seems to think he's an idiot so I'm not even certain about him. Also the praise from them is for the chain not his bravery like it is from Kevan, but the "we know your worth" part seems to indicate that Tyrion has proved himself at least to a degree.

It could be that they are sincerely praising Tyrion, that they are going on record liking him to throw off suspicion for the assassination set up, or that they are displeased with credit Tywin got and are praising Tyrion as a dig at Tywin. None of those are mutually exclusive. I happen to think that a dwarf taking Sandor Clegane's place in battle is something that stands out regardless of other motives and that Tyrion has found a way other than wit to win favor with people.

Littlefinger

What in the hell is Tywin thinking? Littlefinger was apparently in on the pre-meeting setup but neither Tyrion or Cersei was? Is he now some kind of adopted Lannister son? Lysa is a Tully and a marriage to her secures LF's Riverlands claim in the way that an Arya or Sansa marriage could secure Winterfell. The Vale is untouched by war and at full strength. Both the Riverlands and the Vale hate the Lannisters and Littlefinger has absolutely nothing to marry him to the Lannister cause. Tywin is planning the Red Wedding so he knows Edmure and Cat are about to be out of the picture making the Riverlands Littlefinger's through marriage to Lysa regardless of the Lannister grant. He's knowingly placing LF in a position to control two of the seven kingdoms with zero insurance on his Lannister loyalty. The Lannister/Tyrell alliance is only two kingdoms. Dorne, Balon, the North or Stannis could make him an offer and the Lannisters have nothing to hold LF to their cause.

I think this is another Rains of Castamere move on the Tullys. Cat and Edmure will be taken care of at the Red Wedding and LF's humiliation of Lysa is part of Tywin's plan. Low birth for Lord of Harrenhal was utter folly with Slynt but never seems to be an issue with LF despite Paramount of the Riverlands being added. Apparently the Spicer marriage was enough to taint the Westerlings as worthy of a Stark match despite them being an old family, so why is LF's birth suddenly not an issue for Harrenhal? I suspect his low birth and previous duel is the whole point of granting him dominion over Tully lands.

[butterbumps!]

Littlefinger

What in the hell is Tywin thinking? Littlefinger was apparently in on the pre-meeting setup but neither Tyrion or Cersei was? Is he now some kind of adopted Lannister son? Lysa is a Tully and a marriage to her secures LF's Riverlands claim in the way that an Arya or Sansa marriage could secure Winterfell. The Vale is untouched by war and at full strength. Both the Riverlands and the Vale hate the Lannisters and Littlefinger has absolutely nothing to marry him to the Lannister cause. Tywin is planning the Red Wedding so he knows Edmure and Cat are about to be out of the picture making the Riverlands Littlefinger's through marriage to Lysa regardless of the Lannister grant. He's knowingly placing LF in a position to control two of the seven kingdoms with zero insurance on his Lannister loyalty. The Lannister/Tyrell alliance is only two kingdoms. Dorne, Balon, the North or Stannis could make him an offer and the Lannisters have nothing to hold LF to their cause.

I think this is another Rains of Castamere move on the Tullys. Cat and Edmure will be taken care of at the Red Wedding and LF's humiliation of Lysa is part of Tywin's plan. Low birth for Lord of Harrenhal was utter folly with Slynt but never seems to be an issue with LF despite Paramount of the Riverlands being added. Apparently the Spicer marriage was enough to taint the Westerlings as worthy of a Stark match despite them being an old family, so why is LF's birth suddenly not an issue for Harrenhal? I suspect his low birth and previous duel is the whole point of granting him dominion over Tully lands.

I'm glad you pulled this out as a point (it didn't make the 6 page cut, lol). What is Tywin thinking here? Why does he have such a different view of LF than Slynt? I realize that LF was in fact a lord by birth, which is a considerable difference, but I've been finding myself very perplexed by Tywin's thoughts on LF for these past few chapters.

Part of why Tywin trusts LF will come in the second part of the chapter, where he reveals that LF came forward with the Tyrell plot to spirit away Sansa, but even this doesn't explain it fully to me. I can't tell if LF is playing Tywin, and/ or "what else Tywin is not telling" wrt this man.

BTW: I will post the second part in a couple of hours. It's a very taxing chapter for me. So much to cut down.

[Lyanna Stark]

Great post Butterbumps!

Read this chapter 2-3 weeks ago and I agree it's a chapter that demands a lot of effort.

I'm glad you pulled this out as a point (it didn't make the 6 page cut, lol). What is Tywin thinking here? Why does he have such a different view of LF than Slynt? I realize that LF was in fact a lord by birth, which is a considerable difference, but I've been finding myself very perplexed by Tywin's thoughts on LF for these past few chapters.

I think some people have touched before in this thread upon the fact that Tywin is not consistent. In this, I tend to agree. He also seems to change opinion like a windmill when it suits him and his plans (for instance with regards to Gregor).

Tywin seemed very petulant about Slynt, mostly perhaps because Tywin has no hold on Slynt, and Slynt had done nothing for Tywin. Yet Littlefinger can present a neat solution for Tywin here, so he's ok, and Tywin does another windmill maneuver. I also tend to agree that the fact that Tywin wants to do a Rains of Castamere on the Tullys is playing a big part in why he is suddenly changing opinions. In that, he's as vengeful as Cersei at the very least, just colder about it. He also seems to underestimate LF in so far as Tywin expects that Lannister forces will be needed to hold Harrenhal, and that LF will never be able to do it himself, having no "hard power" to project. It's as if Tywin expects LF to always be in cahoots with the Lannisters since he needs to rely on their hard power. Of course, we as readers know that LF operates in a spectrum where hard power is something he mostly does without.

To summarise:

Tywin is inconsistent and lets himself be run by his need for vengeance.

He underestimates LF due to him thinking too much in terms of hard power.

[Lummel]

...I know Lummel believes the Tyrells have ulterior motives for praising Tyrion. Here the praise is public so that could fit with an agenda and Tyrion senses contempt in the latter portion. Is Mace in on the assassination plot? What about Rowan and Redwyne? I doubt anyone of them but Mace would know and the Queen of Thorns seems to think he's an idiot so I'm not even certain about him. Also the praise from them is for the chain not his bravery like it is from Kevan, but the "we know your worth" part seems to indicate that Tyrion has proved himself at least to a degree...

I agree that Kevan praise is sincere, but the Tyrells reminded me of the behaviour at a business meeting - more arse licking than honesty. "we know your worth" is also open to interpretation, personally 'we know your worth' and don't want to loose you seems less likely 'we know your worth' the dwarf who came back from one battle with a broken arm and another with no nose will have his hind quarters served up to him on a plate if he makes an attempt on the Bloody Gate.

But I don't think the Purple Wedding plot comes into it for the Tyrell lords.

...I think some people have touched before in this thread upon the fact that Tywin is not consistent. In this, I tend to agree. He also seems to change opinion like a windmill when it suits him and his plans (for instance with regards to Gregor)...

He underestimates LF due to him thinking too much in terms of hard power.

I agree. If Tywin is thinking about this in hard power terms then there is no risk. He can't perceive the copper counting Lord Baelish as being able to lead an army or command the loyalty of the Vale lords

[Lummel]

...Incompetents, Fools and Predators...

Hmmm

One of the themes here I think is willing blindness. Each person seemed to be focused on what they want and what they want to believe that they ignore the bigger pictures as suggested by Varys' report of the three headed dragon in Quarth.

Well Varys knows exactly that this is Daenerys, a woman who does have a certain stomach for war. The hungriest predators are circling then but those at the council table don't really want to see it.

[Ragnorak]

While I agree that Tywin seems very inconsistent, I suspect that he is completely consistent. Tyrion asked for his status as heir to Casterly Rock to be publicly recognized as a reward. Given that Jaime's in the KG this isn't actually asking for anything other than for Tywin to admit Tyrion's his son. Tywin denies him and says he'll get a reward appropriate to his service and station. Lord Paramount of a Kingdom is the equivilent of what Tyrion asked for and it is given to Littlefinger I suspect precisely for his service and station. He said "a Lannister always pays his debts" when he told Tyrion of the reward but I think the debt is to the Tullys not LF and the service and station are both tied to the Rains of Castamere on House Tully. Similarly I don't think he actually pondered turning over Gregor and vacillated on it. I think he just outright lied to Tyrion to create the illusion of a reasonable man.

Victorion always thinks that Euron's gifts are poisoned. I suspect the same of Tywin's to his children. While Tyrion was ousted from his position as Hand, Cersei was effectively ousted as Regent if not in name. Tywin set her to planning the wedding which has clearly delighted her. Cersei wants to start the meeting with the wedding plans (because clearly her task is the most important) but Tywin starts with war which is his priority but is also telling about how important he views the work assigned to Cersei. I doubt Cersei is able to take the same pleasure in her task after Tywin drops the marriage bomb on her later in the chapter. He poisons Cersei's task with his plans for her to marry again and poisons Tyrion's by publicly making him LF's replacement at LF's suggestion. With the backdrop of the Casterly Rock exchange, elevating LF to a High Lord while simultaneously demoting Tyrion to LF's prior post adds to this effect.

[butterbumps!]

TYRION III

analysis part 2: Lannister council

Littlefinger: “I fear a trap”

As soon as Kevan closes the door Tyrion explodes. In a strained voice, he asks whose notion making him Master of Coin had been. Tywin lets him know that it was LF’s idea, and then mocks Tyrion’s outrage by facetiously asking whether he’s up to the task. The following exchange is quite significant:

Tyion: “I fear a trap. Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. I do not trust him. Nor should you.”

Cersei: “He won Highgarden to our side . . .”

Tyrion: “. . . and sold you Ned Stark, I know. He will sell us just as quick. A coin is as dangerous as a sword in the wrong hands.”

His uncle Kevan looked at him oddly. “Not to us, surely. The gold of Casterly Rock . . .”

Tyrion: “. . . is dug from the ground. Littlefinger’s gold is made from thin air, with a snap of his fingers.”

“A more useful skill than any of yours, sweet brother,” purred Cersei, in a voice sweet with malice.

From the first part of this chapter, Tyrion is our sympathetic observer, who navigates us through the foolishness and cruelty of the others at the meeting. The meeting ends with Tyrion at the height of sympathy in his appeals for the good of the NW, which he makes out of fondness for the Old Bear, and are summarily shot down by Tywin in a cold, nasty manner.

The second half continues with a kind of “victimization” of Tyrion in being named Master of Coin at LF’s behest, a choice Tyrion had no part in. He’s outraged for a few reasons: it’s a demotion from Hand, it’s LF’s leavings, the fact that LF suggested it is suspect, and importantly, Tyrion had no choice in the matter. I don’t think that Tyrion managed his expectations well in terms of recognizing that his Hand appointment would be temporary, and that some of the anger and bitterness we’ve seen from him these last few chapters may be somewhat disproportionate to the reality of the situation.

That being said, he’s right about his warnings of LF. I think that the truth of Tyrion’s assessment of LF makes his outrage at being named MoC a bit more righteous to the reader. The most interesting part of the excerpt above is Kevan’s response, in my opinion. It would seem that Kevan, at least, believes LF has the same motivations as any common sellsword, and that enough money will keep him loyal. It doesn’t seem to occur to Kevan that LF might use the money for his own devices, or that LF has his own means of securing money on his own, and thus, wouldn’t need Casterly gold. Put another way, it seems Kevan believes LF is a simple gold-digger, and that he is loyal to the Lannisters because they are the richest House. I am unclear to what extent Kevan is speaking for Tywin, but I do believe there might be more to Tywin’s relationship with LF, given his initial response to Slynt’s being given Harrenhal.

Tywin breaks up the sibling squabble, which has devolved into name-calling, and Kevan goes on to clarify the Lannister-LF alliance:

I would sooner have Petyr ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa’s other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort…these are dangerous men, each in their own way. And proud. LF may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege.

It would seem that Kevan, speaking for Tywin, took the bait LF deposited. LF plays into the notion of being powerless through lack of titles and martial skill, which inspires others to believe he’s somehow less dangerous than he truly is. Only Tyrion seems to get it, and no one will listen.

It would also seem that Kevan and Tywin expect LF to fail in this mission, that it’s also a kind of booby prize. They seem to think that LF won’t be able to bring the established lords to recognize him as their liege. Having read the books, we know that LF buys Lyn Corbray who makes a scene and compels the Lord Declarant to recognize LF on a technicality. But were the Lannisters initially hoping that LF would be killed or sent back unsuccessfully? What would that have served? It would give the Lannisters an excuse to send troops into the Vale to take out these rebellious lords, but fighting in the Eyrie is a terrible gamble for the away team, so I’m puzzled about what they were trying to accomplish with this.

A last selling point on LF is the fact that he came to the Lannisters with the Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa to Highgarden for marriage. Cersei is of course outraged because “Sansa is [her] hostage.” This misses the point, which once again only Tyrion seems to get: “Littlefinger brought you word? Not our master of whispers? How interesting.” How did no one question LF’s being the one to reveal this plot? Of course we know that it’s because Dontos is in his employ, but I feel this is a point Tywin should have considered. The Lannisters (excluding Tyrion) seem to take this reveal as proof of LF’s loyalty, but the questions they should all be asking is A. why does LF know this and B. what is LF hoping to gain from telling them.

This reveal posits the fact that it is imperative Sansa be married quickly, which will be revisited later in the chapter.

Cersei: “I am not a brood mare!”

Tywin announces that Cersei is to be married again, a thought that disturbs her greatly. Kevan takes a honeyed approach, appealing to companionship to make her agreeable, while Tywin plays “bad cop.” Tywin wants Cersei to remarry in order to have more children so that Stannis’ rumors might be slaughtered for good. Cersei tries to object, saying she’s the Queen, not a “brood mare,” but Tywin puts an end to this: “You will marry and you will breed. Every child you birth makes Stannis more a liar.”

I feel for Cersei here, and Tywin is indeed a monster for treating his daughter’s womb as an ad campaign. Tyrion, who believes that his sister has just tried to kill him, doesn’t even know whether he “wanted to laugh at her or weep for her” as she’s put through this debacle. Tyrion does make some snarky remarks, and of these, I’m honestly not going to hold it against him. As Tywin’s going through the farce of naming suitable candidates, Balon of Pyke comes up, and Tyrion thinks, “Just when I was about to give up praying, some sweet god gives me this.” I say I am not holding comments like this, or his laughing at the irony of Cersei’s marrying “the cripple” Willas against him, because he’s not laughing at her being a brood mare; he’s laughing at the thought of Cersei on Pyke (which, come on, is kind of funny), and the irony of her disdain for Tyrion’s deformity in being paired with “a cripple.” I’m not trying to whitewash this, but I keep going over this passage, and while I do think the whole discussion is beyond problematic, I think Tyrion’s comments are actually on the mild side considering he does think she just tried to kill him.

When the humiliating discussion is over, Cersei asks Tywin for leave to go; Tyrion notes that this is wrong, she is the Queen, and that Tywin should be “begging leave of [her].” Tyrion knows that Cersei will comply, despite her protests. She’d fallen in line with Robert years before. Tyrion sees a potential problem, however, and thinks on how to alert his father to this issue in a rather amusing manner:

Though there is Jaime to consider. Their brother had been much younger when Cersei wed the first time; he might not acquiesce to a second marriage quite so easily. The unfortunate Willas Tyrell was like to contract a sudden fatal case of sword-through-bowels, which could rather sour the alliance between Highgarden and Casterly Rock. I should say something, but what? Pardon me, Father, but it’s our brother she wants to marry?

Mrs. Lannister

Before Tyrion has a chance to warn his father about Willas’ impending “sword through bowels,” Tywin informs him that it’s past time he was married.

This is a highly controversial passage (and the reason for my foot-dragging). My take on the following is this: Tyrion is reluctant; between his unsaid thoughts and formal protests, he dissents about 8 times in the exchange. One of these times, he expresses concern that marrying Sansa to a Lannister would be singularly cruel. I do not believe that Tyrion comes across as a completely insensitive monster, actively seeking to take Sansa and use her with no concern for her person at all. But generally, when his thoughts consider personal factors, they are overwhelmingly about Tyrion’s feelings, not Sansa’s. I do not believe that Tyrion is “forced;” I do believe he could have opted out of the entire scenario without being wed. So I do not believe Tyrion is an immoral scum for this, but neither do I believe he was forced, nor that this isn’t something he finds ultimately desirable.

The exchange

Tyrion answers his father’s suggestion with a smirk, thinking, “I was wed, or have you forgotten?” After a minute of consideration, however, he warms to the prospect of marriage generally, believing it could be his ticket to freedom: “A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court….and away from Cersei and their father.”

There follows a series of exchanges that contain a bit of disconnect between Tyrion’s true protests and the dissent he can voice to his father. Tyrion thinks about Shae, and the fact that she won’t want him married, but that this is not an argument he can make reasonably. He figures out that Tywin means to marry him to Sansa, and replaces his Shae argument with one about provoking the Tyrells. Tywin and Kevan assure him that this won’t be a problem, especially since Cersei will be marrying Willas.

Tyrion tries a second tack, appealing to the cruelty of marrying Sansa to a Lannister: “His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa’s life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father.”

Tywin again dismisses this, asking with “curiosity” whether Tyrion intends to mistreat her. Tywin goes further: “The girl’s happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours…there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark.”

As the cruelty argument failed, he appeals to Sansa’s age: “She is no more than a child.” Tywin insists that all Tyrion needs to do is to take her maidenhead, and let her be until she gets older. Tyrion does not like this idea: “Sansa’s a girl, no matter what you say.”

Tyrion implores his father to let Sansa return to her family as a gesture of good faith. Again, Tywin rejects this idea, convinced that she will be used by the Starks to shore up other alliances like the Umbers or Manderlys. Personally, I found this an extremely weak argument since those other families are already aligned with the North. I think this is a case of what “Tywin is not saying” again. Tywin further argues that she must be wed, as someone else might try to pull the same ploy as the Tyrells just tried.

Kevan tries to coax Tyrion into compliance by reminding him that he would be able to claim Winterfell through this. Tywin tries a reverse psychology tactic by threatening that he will marry her to another Lannister, such as Lancel, as all other candidates are currently prisoners.

While Kevan and Tywin are extolling the virtues of a Sansa Lannister marriage, Tyrion muses:

“Sansa Stark. Soft-spoken, sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.”

Here is when Tyrion begins to acquiesce. He’s never considered that he would have such a theoretically pleasing option as Sansa in marriage, and he feels like the world’s turned upside down. I take this to mean that he’d never let himself dream of having someone like Sansa, and that now that it seems the option is there, he realizes that he wants to take it, despite not having wanted it previously.

Tywin addresses Tyrion directly again, now making the argument that this is the best option that will ever come along. Apparently, Tywin tried arranging Tyrion’s marriage to numerous Houses, only to be humiliatingly rejected. I do question the extent to which this is a bluff, given that it would seem ties to Casterly Rock should outweigh Tyrion’s dwarfism. Tywin brings the point to an ugly conclusion: “If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who’d gladly

part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys . . .”

I think Tywin may be overselling Tyrion’s unattractiveness to other families in order to make Tyrion more amenable to this. It’s very sad, actually. His father is basically cataloguing how monstrous Tyrion is, demoralizing and debasing him in order to make him feel worthless so that the marriage to Sansa is that much more compelling.

Still unconvinced, Tyrion puts his cards on the table: “A quirk of mine. Strange to say I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed.” Tywin brings up the point of whores who simply pretend to desire Tyrion. Further, Tywin is incredulous about Tyrion’s reluctance: “I had hoped this match would please you.” Not fooled by his father’s comment, he asks more pointed questions about the necessity of Sansa; he reminds his father that Balon is now king and has a daughter, so why not her? Tywin does not believe the Greyjoys will hold the north for long, and recognizes the need for a Stark heir to be placed in Winterfell in order to hold the north sustainably. He admits that he wants Tyrion to produce this Stark heir with Sansa, so that they can return to Winterfell once the north is done with krakens.

Tywin reminds Tyrion once more that he will never get Casterly Rock. But by marrying Sansa, he will have Winterfell. Tyrion thinks, “Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.” There’s much debate on the meaning of “queer chill” here. I take it mean a few things. It’s a coldness about taking something from people that Tyrion had come to respect, and know he could never actually “own,” as per his thoughts of Theon’s taking Winterfell. I think it’s also, however, tinged with excitement; he wants this, it’s in his grasp, and the prospect is desirable. But he knows somewhere that he can’t be “Lord of Winterfell” in its true essence, despite his envy of the Starks (and I do believe he envies the Starks).

Robb’s Folly

Tyrion inquires about Robb, wondering why his father is banking on continuing the Starks through Sansa. Tywin reveals the “what he was not telling us” by informing Tyrion that Robb has married Jeyne Westerling. Tyrion is incredulous that Robb has thrown away the Freys for the sake of this girl, and Kevan provides an infodump on the Westerlings, with a strong note of disdain for their common blood.

Tyrion is not as shocked by Robb’s impulse to do this, as he recalls how he had married a whore himself, some years back. Still, Tyrion is perplexed as to why the Westerlings would have let this happen, given that the ruins of Castamere are a giant billboard for Tywin’s wrath. There is a bit of foreshadowing as Tyrion recalls when another lord, Lord Farman, had started trouble in the West, and how Tywin ended it by simply sending a lutist to play the “Rains of Castamere” to Farman.

Tywin assures Tyrion that the Westerlings are well aware of the Castameres, and even “threatened to smile.”

[David Selig]

Tyrion being so mad at being made Master of Coin made him look less sympathetic to me. It's a very important job after all, and if he stopped whining for a second, he'd realise being a hand was always just a temporary stint for him.

The thing which has always bugged me about the Lannister's family discussion of LF here is that Tyrion doesn't mention the dagger lie. He obviously wanted to convince his family to stop trusting LF and this was clearly the easiest way.

I think Tywin expected LF to be a weak lord in the Vale unable to keep the Arryn's bannermen in line and this would reduce the danger which Lysa being married to someone like Yohn Royce would present if he's the control the Vale would have been.

[brashcandy]

Great job bumps. And now we've reached controversy central :) I agree with your view on the "queer chill" and Tyrion's sense of unease tinged with excitement throughout the conversation. However, my assessment of this chapter has always been that Tyrion doesn't really put up much of a fight over the marriage, and his protests aren't really protests, but rather comes across as almost languid verbal sparring with his father, all in an effort to be seduced into marrying Sansa. I think this part is quite revealing:

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, his knew.

Tyrion has already decided that Kevan and his father are only seeming to consider other options in their ultimate effort to convince him. His objections to my mind are no more serious than he considers their alternative options on that matter.

When Tywin brings up Lollys, Tyrion does not even bother to call his bluff, but displays the kind of aversion Tywin undoubtedly expected him to have. There's no sense of anger, no real outrage for what this mean for Sansa, someone who's been victimized by his family for months. Sure, as you noted, he knows Sansa will not want him in her bed, but it's all related to what Tyrion can and cannot abide. At the end of the conversation, there's no doubt what his future role as Lord of Winterfell will mean for Sansa's remaining family. Tyrion accepts this marriage knowing two things as plain as day:

- Sansa doesn't want him

- her brother will be killed

It's amazing that he felt he could go on to have a productive marriage.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion being so mad at being made Master of Coin made him look less sympathetic to me. It's a very important job after all, and if he stopped whining for a second, he'd realise being a hand was always just a temporary stint for him.

The thing which has always bugged me about the Lannister's family discussion of LF here is that Tyrion doesn't mention the dagger lie. He obviously wanted to convince his family to stop trusting LF and this was clearly the easiest way.

I think Tywin expected LF to be a weak lord in the Vale unable to keep the Arryn's bannermen in line and this would reduce the danger which Lysa being married to someone like Yohn Royce would present if he's the control the Vale would have been.

I agree with you on these points. Where I have sympathy for Tyrion wrt being named Master of Coin is in the fact that it's LF "leavings," given their animosity; I think this is aggravated by the fact that LF purposely suggested Tyrion for this role knowing it would upset him. I mean to say, I think LF meant it as an insult.

[Lykos]

One of the themes here I think is willing blindness. Each person seemed to be focused on what they want and what they want to believe that they ignore the bigger pictures as suggested by Varys' report of the three headed dragon in Quarth.

The Tyrell party reminded me of myself playing chess, in this scene. Trying to set up the pieces for a checkmate, but only watching for moves that interfere with my trap, while being unable to understand the schemes of my oponent. Which in most cases is the computer, that just sits back and eats away my pawns untill the power balance is to it´s advantage or I make an impatient blunder.

Yes and Varys is hiding the important news amongst rumors of litttle importance. I wonder if the news about the Wall was also meant as a screen?

I don't think the Purple Wedding plot comes into it for the Tyrell lords.

I agree, not until Tyrion is aiding in bringing down their plans, but I´m pretty sure some of these plans are allready in their minds as they placed Loras in the King´s Guard. So Littlefinger is "loyal" to both sides, I wonder if he had planned taking Sansa exactly the way it turned out? He is, afterall taking his waiting position on the "Merling King". (Symbolism? Blisscraft?)

If Tywin is thinking about this in hard power terms then there is no risk. He can't perceive the copper counting Lord Baelish as being able to lead an army or command the loyalty of the Vale lords

Well Harrenhal can´t be held without a large army and the Riverlands can not sustain a large army. And if Littlefinger is able to gain command over the Vale it´s easily controlled for the same reason that it´s hard to take. This could work in favor of the Lannisters in case the Starks regained controll of the North or you want to weaken your allies by engaging them in an unwinable war, the Tyrells seem greedy after being set back by Robert Baratheon after all.

Butterbumps, good work!

My greatest indignation on Tyrions behalf was, that he was made Master of Coin after this has been decided.

Lord Redwyne asked only for thirty years' remission of the taxes that Littlefinger and his wine factors had levied on certain of the Arbor's finest vintages. When that was granted, he pronounced himself well satisfied ...

[Lummel]

...It's amazing that he felt he could go on to have a productive marriage.

we try not to under estimate Tyrion's capacity for self delusion in this thread!

Although if we were to be earnest then we would have to question what kind of expectations Tyrion and the Lannisters had of the marriage. Productive, just to use your word, could simply mean productive of an heir which needn't involve any gentility or chivalry on Tyrion's part.

Looking at this from Tyrion's POV is perhaps unhelpful because one thing that this chapter (and the next because I have been sneaking ahead!) makes clear is that what the Lannister children want is irrelevant. This is all about what Tywin wants and the chapter is full of win for him, it is beyond win-win, it establishes a new paradigm of winsomeness! ;)

The Sansa marriage stops anybody else from grabbing a major heiress and puts Tyrion a long way away from Casterly Rock. The Littlefinger marriage delivers the Vale to the King's peace and if the Vale Lords reject Lord Baelish who are they going to call to sort out their problems? No, not ghostbusters - the Iron Throne. With the Cersei marriage the Lannisters are on the verge of having their little fingers deep into all the seven kingdoms. It looks like the birth of that wonderful new Lannister era that Tywin was talking about in Tyrion I ASOS.

Of course on the reread we know with Tyrion that

Still it reminds me of

.

[Lykos]

Brashcandy, I think this is a continuation of Tyrion´s guilt that, though it was inflicted on him by Tywin, he has not been able to adress in a proper way.

- Sansa doesn't want him

Tyrion is doubting that any woman will ever be able to love him. And what´s probably worse he wants women to feel lust for him. Well, everyone likes to be attractive, but why does he seek apreciation and respect in the most unlikely place?

This way he´s making it easy for Tywin to manipulate him and he reacts with a boast that is just as infantile as Littlefingers.

"I believe I am," he said, bristling. "I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seeds just as often as I can..."

- her brother will be killed

You know, I don´t think he knows just yet, though I agree that he should, but Tyrion is too occupied with feeling hard done by and his paranoia of Cersei´s inexistent murder plans. ( Is that a tautology? Paranoia of inexistent plans.)

[Lykos]

Did I just bring the Board down?

There is something from the last chapter, I would like you to look into.

Symon says there's to be a dancing bear at the feast, and wines from the Arbor. I've never seen a bear dance." "They do it worse than I do."

This caught my attention, because some month ago I was thinking of starting a thread named "Dancing down the sinner´s steps and snarling in the midst of it all", adressing Tyrion and Jorah´s path. But it was based on an asumption I couldn´t back up and I mostly just liked the title. It was based on this memory of Areo Hotah.

He saw his mother in her dress with the squirrel collar, the one she wore but once each year, when they went to see the bears dance down the Sinner's Steps. And he smelled the stench of burning hair as the bearded priest touched the brand to the center of his chest. The pain had been so fierce that he thought his heart might stop, yet Areo Hotah had not flinched. The hair had never grown back over the axe.

Uncat reminded me of this again.

Just two thought on Tyrion's clothing in this scene. He basicaly wears a long white shirt and nothing else. So this is...

<snip>

C ... the sinner in his last gown raised from his eternal sleep to face The Lord in the last judgement.

<snip>

This came to my mind, also there is this psalm I became aware of thanks to Homer Simpson.

Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies, the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins.

This makes me think that the "Hairy Bear" is after innocence or at least sweet absolution when he dreams of the maiden fair.

The sinner´s steps might also be connected to House Mormon (t)

ETA: Another quote from the last chapter.

"Ravening weasels could not keep me away." There was this to be said for weddings over battles, at least; it was less likely that someone would cut off your nose.

:o

[Lummel]

My role model Septon Meribald also takes sinners' steps, barefoot round the riverlands. A pilgrims Progress through this world towards the next ;)

Actually Lykos that ties in neatly with what Woman of War was saying about the religious references in Tyrion's POV. That seems like another interesting way of looking at Tyrion's role in the narrative and what he is doing. Perhaps he is on a spiritual journey, it is often said that the worst sinners make the best saints!

Now I'm starting to think of the Brothers Karamzov which also features a parricide and difficult relationships between siblings so it's probably time to rest my brain for bit!