Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Winter's Knight]

I thought of shouldering burdens and the loss of a nose reflecting his instincts being cut off by his obscession with Cersei but I know there's something good there that I'm just not seeing.

You mean, apart from the proverbial "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"? Something which both Tywin and Tyrion engage in-Tyrion is happy to needlessly antagonise Cersei throughout ACoK while Tywin does the same to Tyrion in ASoS, even though it jeopardises the succession and makes an enemy out of his son.

I didn't think it was possible for either my love of the Starks or extreme dislike of Tywin to increase, but this re-read has been successful at both. I've loved the last several posts.

It's the reverse for me, I find myself more sympathetic to Tyrion now, then I was on my second re-read.

[Lykos]

WK, In germany we have the saying, "immer der Nase nach" - follow your nose. It´s used as answer when your destination is straight ahead, easy to find, also to encourage proactiveness or to show that you´re carefree (I go where ever the road will lead me) .

Losing one´s nose could represent losing sense of direction. An afterthought on the jade, does anyone see a connection with "being jaded" ?

All the reareads make me appreciate their subjects more, so far. :)

ETA: Corrections and stuff.

[David Selig]

Littlefinger

How maleable-- from the seat of kings to an empty title. Granted the "jackanape" known sarcastically as "our friend Petyr" wasn't the lowborn son of a butcher but hardly of high enough birth or so longstanding a House to merit the seat of kings. Slynt only got the castle. Tywin is giving Petyr the whole of the Riverlands making him in effect a king of 300 years ago to go along with the seat. Are we to believe Tywin Lannister thinks that Lord of one of the Seven Kingdoms is an empty title? Can we assume Lord of the Riverlands and a seat of kings is a reward Tywin deems appropriate for LF's "service and station?" Could LF's duel with Brandon for Cat's hand have something to do with a Rains of Castamere like appointment to punish the Tullys? Is this wise? LF boasted of bedding Lysa and she is an available marriage opportunity. Isn't LF marrying Lysa (a Tully to give him real loyalty among the River Lords) and having the might of two of the Seven kingdoms a fairly obvious and foreseeable potential threat? Clearly he is being less than honest with Tyrion referring to a High Lord of one of the Seven Kingdoms as an empty title. In any case this really was Tyrion's idea and LF was more of a messenger so it is one more case of someone denying the role Tyrion played.

IMO at this point Tywin was setting up LF for a fail as Lord paramount of the Trident. After the RW which was already in the planning, someone with close connections to the Lannisters would have a really hard time balancing between the increased power of the Freys on the one hand, and the resentment of the Riverlords who were loyal to Robb and the Tully, on the other. This is one of the reasons why LF is currently concentrating his efforts in the Vale.

It was Tyrion's idea to propose the marriage that won the Tyrells. He is given no credit for it by Tywin while LF is raised to a Lord Paramount of one of the Seven Kingdoms for it.

Not just for it. He also came up with the "Ghost of Renly" idea which was quite important during the Blackwater battle, he was on their side when Ned was attempting to overthrow Cersei.

I also think Tywin is more than a bit stingy with his praise regarding Dorne. Given Elia's brutal rape and murder a Lannister alliance with Dorne is a virtual impossibility yet Tyrion found terms to keep them out of the camp of any of these other Kings.

But Dorne wasn't joining the other claimant for the crown anyway (as far as Tywin and Tyrion know, since none of them had an idea about Doran's plans with the Targs). Doran had ample time to choose a side in the War of the Five Kings before Tyrion's offer yet didn't do it. For Myrcella the Lannisters got the Dorne neutrality, but it was already a fact before this.

[Winter's Knight]

WK, In germany we have the saying, "immer der Nase nach" - follow your nose. It´s used as answer when your destination is straight ahead, easy to find, also to encourage proactiveness or to show that you´re carefree (I go where ever the road will lead me) .

Losing one´s nose could represent losing sense of direction. An afterthought on the jade, does anyone see a connection with "being jaded" ?

All the reareads make me appreciate their subjects more, so far. :)

ETA: Corrections and stuff.

Speaking of cultural overtones, in Hindi the phrase naak catwana (to have one's nose cut off) means to have been deeply shamed in public. This is because cutting off the noses of traitors, whores, adultresses and unchaste women was a punishment back when we still had the feudal system.

[Kittykatknits]

You mean, apart from the proverbial "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"? Something which both Tywin and Tyrion engage in-Tyrion is happy to needlessly antagonise Cersei throughout ACoK while Tywin does the same to Tyrion in ASoS, even though it jeopardises the succession and makes an enemy out of his son.

It's the reverse for me, I find myself more sympathetic to Tyrion now, then I was on my second re-read.

Tyrion has always been sympathetic to me. When Martin talks about the human heart in conflict, I'm not sure any other character fits that phrase quite so well.

I was talking about Tywin. I didn't know it was possible for me to like the man even less. :) These past several posts have caused me to think about his relationships with each of his children. How can I expect any of them to have healthy relationships with another person if their father, and main parental figure, denies one with his children. He's chosen to model all of the wrong behavior. Or, at least what I as a parent think of as the wrong behavior. :)

WK, In germany we have the saying, "immer der Nase nach" - follow your nose. It´s used as answer when your destination is straight ahead, easy to find, also to encourage proactiveness or to show that you´re carefree (I go where ever the road will lead me) .

Losing one´s nose could represent losing sense of direction. An afterthought on the jade, does anyone see a connection with "being jaded" ?

All the reareads make me appreciate their subjects more, so far. :)

ETA: Corrections and stuff.

Here in the US, we also have the saying, "Your nose knows" which can be used to remind you of the right action to take when you may feel tempted not to or that the problem can be easy. It's about intuition or instinct.

[Blisscraft]

Gosh! I love all of the "nose" sayings, WK, Kittykat, and Lykos. Wonderful. If you were all racing, it would be a "photo finish" because you would win "by a nose."

About Twyin/Tyrion, I didn't want to go so far as to openly defend Tywin. However, we discussed early on Tyrion and his difficulty with self pity in the chapter where he meets Jon Snow and advises him.

As for Tywin, he seems to be modeled upon late 19th and early 20th century US "robber barons" including, but not limited to, Joseph Kennedy Sr., JP Morgan and William Randolph Hearst. (The film icon for this "type" is "Citizen Kane."). This type is easily vilified and yet for many it represents the "American Dream." Weath and power, both of which Tywin possesses are the goals, the "brass ring" for the collective American Dream. However, in art and literature, it converts to an American Nightmare. Fitgerald called it "the bitch goddess, Success."

A significant aspect of this type is the need to control. Wealth and power are only means to this end: control. One of the reasons Tywin has such anger towards Tyrion is that, by his birth, Tyrion took control over Tywin by taking Joanna from him. Tyrion's difficult birth took Joanna from him and Tywin, regardless of all of his power and riches, could not bring her back.

[Ragnorak]

I really like the various nose expressions. They also reminds me that Tyrion had no real end state for Tywin returning when he first took up duty as Hand.

David Selig, the main thing that struck me was that Tywin was very inconsistent with what he states inside and outside this conversation and even his "monkeys and mummers require applause" statement while he claims the lion share of credit for the victory for himself over the Tyrells. Harrenhal goes from the seat of kings to an empty title even with Paramount of the Riverlands added, his later attitude toward Dorne as threat compared with his begrudging the hostage and the vengeance, and his feigned entertainment of the idea of giving up Gregor compared to his later flat out refusal. He gives verbal credit or actual reward to others while diminishing Tyrion's role. It happens enough that it seems to be a pattern even if he has ulterior motives attached to the various individual pieces.

The rational explanation for something Tywin contradicts elsewhere also seems important. It will come up again with the Red Wedding, Sansa's marriage, and Elia's fate. That rational explanation for his actions seems to be reserved for Tyrion. Tywin doesn't seem to grace anyone else with anything but orders while we have access to the camera. Joffrey is ignored and sent to bed, Jaime is ordered to leave the Kingsguard and then moved into the "not my son" category, Cersei seems to be flat out ordered to marry again without any reasoned persuasion, and if he ever justifies himself to Kevan it is behind doors that are closed to us. Granted Tyrion is the only one who dares accuse him of anything but he is also likely the only one who seems able to get away with it. Tywin seems to somehow have almost a need to justify himself to Tyrion. I think it is a curious dynamic that we should keep exploring.

[Lykos]

Sorry, more nose stuff.

In the movie China Town Jack Nicholson got his nose cut for snooping into the schemers´ affairs and runs around with a bandaged nose for the rest of the movie. In the end it turns out that the main schemer was a monsterous father who fathered his own grand child on Faye Dunaway. It´s referenced very often in other popular works, for example in the "The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul".

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion was sticking his nose into Littlefinger's business.

[Lykos]

Ragnorak, yes that´s what I thought, too (but he stuck his nose in everyone else´s business as well).

I´m pretty sure that LF instigated Mandon Moore with the "Tyrion killed Jon Arryn" lie, but I was toying with the idea that this could be a case of one of LF´s instigations running wild and Mandon just got wind of the allegation against Tyrion by accident.

[Blisscraft]

I guess that's where we get the adjective, "nosey." That's "on the nose" for this discussion. There's also a term for snoops, as in the gumshoe or detective type called a "nosey parker."

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion II (SoS)

Summary

Tyrion ambushes Varys in his own chambers. He had waited until the eunuch was called to a meeting with Tywin to sneak in and wait for his return. This seems to be their first encounter since the battle. They exchange some court gossip that emphasizes how out of the loop Tyrion is now. Varys drops the hint of Mandon Moore's kin being back in the Vale if one turned over enough stones. He also tells him Boros Blount has been restored to the Kingsguard, confirms Pycelle is being restored to the Small Council though adds that it was the Conclave of maesters rather than one of his kin's influence, and lets Tyrion know the current state of Cersei and the Kettleblacks.

Tyrion asks Varys to bring Shae to him so he can say goodbye and send her away. After discussing the risks including some of the enemies Tyrion's made and who is spying on him Tyrion suggests bringing Shae to Varys's chambers. Tyrion makes a show of being casual on his way to consult with Varys. He stops to chat with Loras and watch a dog fight. He reaches Varys and finds Shae waiting. They have sex and he tries to send her away but she has other ideas. She wants her silks and jewels back, she wants to live in a manse and she wants to go to Joffery's wedding which she heard about from Symon Silver Tongue. She finally says she's content to be his whore and Tyrion agrees not to send her away. Afterwards he sends Pod to find Bronn and sends Bronn to find the singer.

Observations

Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle burn down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks?

When the candle burned out, Tyrion disentangled himself and lit another.

She used to tease me about that, he remembered. I never thought to feed the fire, that had always been a servant’s task.

The eunuch was humming tunelessly to himself as he came through the door, dressed in flowing robes of peach-colored silk and smelling of lemons.

Renly's peach and the brothel the Peach come to mind. The lemons make me think of Dorne. No specific ideas though.

Varys seems to have a bit of a thing for tradition.

“Alas, I am quite dragonless. I suppose I could have dipped Pycelle in wildfire and set him ablaze. Would the Citadel have preferred that?”

“Well, it would have been more in keeping with tradition.”

“Is he? Oh dear. Still, the knights of the Kingsguard do serve for life, traditionally.

His beard was a trial to him; a tangle of yellow, white, and black hairs, patchy and coarse, it was seldom less than unsightly, but it did serve to conceal some of his face, and that was all to the good.

The good the bad and the Lannister?

He would have donned his chain of golden hands as well, if his father hadn’t stolen it while he lay dying.

If we're talking about the actual office of Hand, Tyrion is delusional. The necklace itself however was actually Tyrion's idea and Tywin did in fact take it. A preamble to Shae?

He’d sent the girl a necklace of silver and jade and a pair of matching bracelets by way of apology, but other than that…

Silver and jade equals Tysha and destruction? Why not send a book? Jewelry isn't exclusively a romantic gift but it has that connotation. His jealous reaction to Bronn sleeping with her makes me wonder. His immediate reaction was "She was learning to read" but his gift has no connection to that.

The Clothes and the Man

It doesn’t matter, he told himself as he waited for moonrise. Whatever you wear, you’re still a dwarf. You’ll never be as tall as that knight on the steps, him with his long straight legs and hard stomach and wide manly shoulders.

What does this say about all those fancy Lannister trappings? How about the whole of the society for that matter? Whatever you wear you're still just a man or a woman. This and the reference to him made me think of the Hound's sword speech.

“A knight’s a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady’s favors, they’re silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I’m the same as you. The only difference is, I don’t lie about what I am. So kill me, but don’t call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don’t stink. You hear me?”

It was strange to see the Knight of Flowers all in white when before he had always been as colorful as a rainbow.

Tyrion looked over his wardrobe, and chose a pair of tight satin breeches in Lannister crimson and his best doublet, the heavy black velvet with the lion’s head studs.

Tyrion stripped and dressed again, in simpler garb; black woolen breeches, an old white tunic, and a faded brown leather jerkin.

Analysis

I looked for newborn/rebirth symbolism but what I saw was overwhelmingly adolescent insecurity. The tryst with Shae is even like teenagers sneaking out the window after the lights go out. His jealously of the knight on the stairs and Bronn seems like a significant regression from where he was last book even when compared to his choice of ugly guards for Shae. His scar and missing nose seem to have heightened his own insecurity about his body. Tywin's choice of "waddle" last chapter may play into that as well.

Tyrion wanted to travel to see the wonders of the East and was given a job instead. He got to travel and see a wonder of the West and was given a job again. Somehow though I doubt he made many political enemies in the drains at Casterly Rock. Now he seems to be back to his status as a man of leisure. We even see him reading again.

Tyrion climbed to the castle library and tried to distract himself with Beldecar’s History of the Rhoynish Wars, but he could hardly see the elephants for imagining Shae’s smile.

His status as a political outsider is clear. He can't even confirm who is going to be a member of the Small Council and needs to be informed about Boros being reinstated to the Kingsguard.

His two most significant interactions are with Varys and Shae. He seems to be seeing Varys's mask more clearly though not what's underneath. Varys has most of his typical tittering, smiling and laughing but it is now seen as slimy and his shudder is exaggerated-- or is Varys doing this intentionally? Maybe Tyrion is angry at him or feels he's false? He sees that the chambers are too sparse and notes the complete lack of papers. It is curious that we have no idea what Varys did during the battle and no one asks. I also would love to see how Varys reconciles to Tywin the verbatim transcripts he produces at Tyrion's trial and Tywin's ignorance of Shae until the trial if he is assigned to spy on Tyrion.

The Shae section struck me as her playing him far more than before both in previous reads and prior chapters. I think the Lollys comment may be behind it more than the text though. She really pulls out all the stops to try and go to that wedding. The focus is on what she wants not what Tyrion wants which shifts the Tyrion focus to what he fears and what he can't provide. He's powerless and not just to send her away.

After the last series of comments I can't not include the nose.

Tyrion rubbed irritably at the scab. “Perhaps I should have a new one made of gold. What sort of nose would you suggest, Varys? One like yours, to smell out secrets? Or should I tell the goldsmith that I want my father’s nose?”

One possible implication is that Tyrion (and also Tywin) can't smell out secrets. The face is our identity. It is what we see in the mirror. This is almost adolescent musings on what I want to be when I grow up. He doesn't like who he is and wants to hide it behind his beard. He's missing a piece of his identity and what remains is scarred.

[1234567]

Another nose reference:

"Cutting off your nose to spite your face".

[Winter's Knight]

Another nose reference:

"Cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Wish I'd thought of that. :closedeyes:

You mean, apart from the proverbial "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"? Something which both Tywin and Tyrion engage in-Tyrion is happy to needlessly antagonise Cersei throughout ACoK while Tywin does the same to Tyrion in ASoS, even though it jeopardises the succession and makes an enemy out of his son.

[Ragnorak]

There's been a lack of food which I think emphasizes how alone Tyrion is, but we see a return to reading. His reading list to date is:

• Unspecified 100 year old discourse on the changing of seasons
  
• Unspecified Valyrian Scrolls
  
• Ayrmidon’s Engines of War
  
• a rumination on the history and properties of dragons (including a Dothraki reference)
  
• and now Beldecar’s History of the Rhoynish Wars (with a reference to elephants)
  

What are we to make of this book choice now?

There's certainly an Essos theme here to his reading list as Arymidon's volume seems to be of Valyrian origin leaving only the change of seasons as a Westeros themed volume. The Rhoyne is interesting because Tyrion will eventually travel that specific river (more on that and rebirth in a moment.) The Rhoynish war that I'm aware of was the one they lost to the dragons that resulted in Nymeria leading them to Dorne. Tyrion wanted to travel and see the East and he eventually will and it seems like he'll get his wish to see dragons as well. (He mentioned being dragonless to the Alchemists and again here to Varys which has some interesting potential.)

The Rhoynish were originally worshipers of nature gods with the River Goddess being the most important. That culture lives on in Dorne on the Greenblood which, at least to me, recalls Greenseers especially with the nature god connection. Nymeria is now a wolf roaming the Riverlands. All of this tends to point to Arya and Dorne. Tyrion has a number of similarities to Sandor most of which I tend to attribute to Martin playing with the Beauty and the Beast theme with their connection to Sansa.

Sandor's rebirth puzzles me because it seems to have three components. First is the Blackwater, then is his trial in the cave, followed by his "death" when Arya leaves him. Tyrion also seems to have a rebirth at the Blackwater. In both cases at the Blackwater they shed the external roles they played as a substitute for a real internal identity. This is followed by a literal trial starting with verbal arguments and ending in a trial by combat. Tyrion's death/judgment/rebirth seems to mirror Sandor's at least to some degree. Most of this jumps ahead of where we are, but I'm looking ahead to try and make sense of the rebirth. While I'm looking ahead I also wonder if Tyrion will continue the Sandor parallel and travel with Arya for a time, possibly being "judged" by her at the end as well. (Crackpot: Tysha hires a FM!!!)

Any thoughts on the meaning behind The History of Rhoynish Wars or the progression of his rebirth in general?

[A wilding]

The Shae section struck me as her playing him far more than before both in previous reads and prior chapters. I think the Lollys comment may be behind it more than the text though. She really pulls out all the stops to try and go to that wedding. The focus is on what she wants not what Tyrion wants which shifts the Tyrion focus to what he fears and what he can't provide. He's powerless and not just to send her away.

Tyrion and Shae are at cross purposes throughout this meeting. We are told Tyrion's thoughts, but have to work out what Shae's are from what she says.

First she hears Tyrion say he is going to put her aside. She asks about the silks and jewels Tyrion gave her in ACoK and then took away again. She hears Tyrion say she will never get them back. Then she asks if she can stop maiding for Lollys and tries to persuade Tyrion to make her his mistress again. Tyrion refuses that as well, and she is clearly upset and angry, but feels unable to do more than be sullen (which might be a last attempt to soften him). Ultimately, and probably after some thought, she persuades him to "keep" her in return for continuing to be his whore, presumably still with some hope of ultimately wheedling a better deal out of him.

I especially liked where Tyrion thinks:

Gladly would he have given her the promise she wanted, and gladly walked her back to his own bedchamber on his arm to let her dress in the silks and velvets she loved so much. Had the choice been his she could have sat beside him at Joffrey's wedding feast ...

Tell her that Tyrion. Explain exactly why you can't! Say that you will make arrangements that she will be looked after no matter what!

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - I thought about the rebirth theme and it's seems more like a "born again" than a "new" birth. I mean "born again" in terms of baptism, i.e. the Blackwater, born again in the spirit rather than simply the flesh. The Blackwater seems less "holy" than the river Jordan as a place of being born again in the "spirit," but it has created a real change in Tyrion.

From the above you seem to see a correlation between Tyrion's and Sandor's character arcs. I agree.

[Woman of War]

I have just come upon some very interesting hints at Tyrion's relation to religion while rereading ADWD. We know from his POV that Tyrion once wanted to be a septon and he is, I believe the character who gives us the most quotations and excerpts of texts from the faith of the seven. This is of course especially remarkable since Tyrion sees himself as agnostic. And he delivers lots of proofs below his sarcasm that indeed he is not an outright atheist but has some awe for spirituality while despising religious fanatics. This might bena very personal approach of the author towards that topic, given that Martin declared himself what? an atheist or agnostic? And seeing religion with an outsider's eye is imo far more interesting than the viewpoint of an uncritcal believer, at least for me. Though I would love to read about the conversion to a life within religion of someone like Sandor, a honest cynic and not an idiot like Lancel. But this is off topic.

[Winterfellian]

Thanks for the great analysis Ragnorak!

One of the things that caught my attention in this chapter is the way Tywin dealt with Boros Blount and Pycelle. I thing it serves a comparison with Tyrion's actions back in ACOK. The way Tywin dealt with this men for me is reminiscent with the way Tyrion secured Jacelyn Bywater's services back when he started his own term as hand. Unlike with Bronn and the sellswords, which were secured with gold, Ser Jacelyn was "bought" in a different manner. By dismissing Slynt and his cronnies, who trash talked of Bywater behind his back, and making him captain of the City Guard Tyrion assure himself that Jacelyn's advancement was due solely to him therefore securing his loyalty. Back then I feel Tyrion displayed a good deal of cleverness by knowing with what to buy each men. This cunning seems explained in this chapter with Tywin's proceedings.

To gain Boros and Pycelle in this case Tywin does not use Lannister gold in a literal sense, but rather uses a move similar to what Tyrion did with Jacelyn. Tywin usurps the power base of those who humilliated them both, Cersei and Tyrion, (I think Tywin is not usurping Tyrion's power base but also Cersei's, though in a more subtle way than Tyrion did when he first arrived. Cersei went from Queen Regent to "wedding planner" after Tywin's arrival and doesn't even seem to notice) and elevated them to positions of honor from their current disgraced state. That way they are endebted to him, Tywin, as Bywater was endebted to Tyrion in last book. As an irony, we know that Bywater was one of Tyrion's most loyal man during the Blackwater battle and from what we know of Pycelle he's also very much loyal to Tywin despite of both of them not being "bought with gold"

Is clear that Tyrion learns many lessons from Tywin and this lessons are ironically not the ones that Tywin is trying to teach him, given that he has always viewed Jaime as his rightful heir. However the lessons Tywin that Tywin does try to teach his son are not making it through Tyrion:

Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle burn down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks?

Or rather, Tyrion isn't learning what Tywin expects him to learn from them.

This is a little off track, but in ACOK we also had Cersei giving a try with this Tywin-Tyrion approach to secure the Kettleblacks to her. By securing Osmund Kettleblack his white cloak she was making the statement that his advancement was due exclusively to her (as Bywater was to Tyrion and Pycelle and Blount to Tywin) But unlike her father and brother Cersei is less skilled in pin pointing the sort of men she can buy by using this particular approach and went and choose a man that is more like Bronn than Bywater, Pycelle or Boros Blount. We had 2 siblings taking a leaf from their father's book with one being more succesful than the other.

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft-- Can you elaborate on the "born again" concept? He is stripped of his clothing and rank, but not his wealth and possessions so that aspect of biblical metaphor only goes so far. I like the baptism idea. Tyrion's first battle was the Green Fork and his second was the Blackwater. That matches his green and black eyes. His next impulse toward valor in combat will also be on a river to save Aegon and he seems poised to participate in the Battle for Meereen which is on a river as well.

WoW-- Tyrion and the Seven is an interesting topic we haven't really touched on. It does tie in with teh baptism notion. He will journey to the place where the Seven originated which has a certain pilgrimage aspect to it. He is a dwarf and they are typically associated with crafting and forging in fantasy. He designs his own saddle and that chain certainly ties him to the Smith despite his own body being "ill-made." I need to ponder that more.

Winterfellian-- To continue with the Smith theme, who Tyrion really is has been forged by Tywin even though he may not be the creation that was intended. I like the observation of how Tywin is winning loyalty. Where I went with it in my head was that he is diminishing his own children to help elevate his own position which fits with my idea that he is poisoning his own legacy-- but I'm hesitant to attribute my own negative Tywin sentiments to your post.