Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Lummel]

Yes it was GRRM's decision to give us the marriage ceremony and wedding night from Sansa's POV. I suppose we could all guess at why :)

That idea of Tyrion having illusions, no lets say, romantic aspirations about his marriage, is confirmed in his later chapters and is basically set up for us in Tyrion III "I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed", even if we assume that just what he tells Tywin, even though he has subconscious motivations and conscious motivations that he can't tell his father ("Papa! I want to marry a prostitute!") that does still seem to be a truism - unless you are some kind of Gregor Clegane or Ramsey Snow you do want the person you are sharing your bed with to want you!

It is a facet of GRRM's style that we can point to characters having unconscious motivations, Sansa's unkiss is the example I can think of off the top of my head. On topic I suppose Tyrion not asking or even thinking about the sucession question until ASOS I.

[Ragnorak]

The impression I get of Tyrion here is that he is still torn and conflicted but learning. He is still circling around the hard truths but he's in a tighter orbit. He occasionally faces them in his thoughts but has yet to embrace them.

Some part of him had hoped for less indifference. Had hoped, he jeered bitterly, but now you know better, dwarf. Shae is all the love you’re ever like to have.

No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

Previously Shae had been referred to as all the love he'd ever need and now she's all the love he'll ever have with a recognition of its limited nature. He sees that Sansa hates him and connects it to him being a Lannister. In later chapters while he's in their presence this clarity will vanish in the blindness of his emotional wants and needs, yet it is far more clarity than he has shown in the past. Even here we are reminded that Tyrion has still not learned.

“They come back quicker than the rats,” he complained. “We burned them out once, you’d think they’d take that as a lesson.”

See there, Father? he wanted to shout. See how fast I learn my lessons?

There's even a subtle Tyrion/Tywin reference in the smallfolk.

Tyrion felt their eyes on him as he rode past; chilly eyes, angry and unsympathetic.

Well, I burned most of this, I suppose it’s only just that I rebuild it.

Tywin left the castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks in ruins. He doesn't rebuild only destroys. This is a lesson that still elludes Tyrion. At the opening of the book Tyrion was persona non grata. It is only Kevan's incapacitation from grief that makes Tywin need him again just as he was needed to act as Hand in KL (and Kevan's grief is quite the contrast to Tywin's at the idea of losing a son.) It is also interesting that Kevan was going to handle the rebuilding and that Tywin goes to Tyrion over engaging in that task himself.

I think the swords show this as well. Tywin is destroying the symbol of Winterfell and not giving Tyrion anything of this Winterfell legacy. Again we see Tywin symbolically destroying the Stark line and denying "Winterfell" to Tyrion.

The swords are a very interesting bit of foreshadowing and has Jon written all over it among other elements.

Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore.

Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House...

These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily.

but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see.

"...There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

“There is one.”

If not twins, the two were at least close cousins

The garnets vs rubies recalls both Longclaw and Rhaegar. We have an idea od what the trees remember, the North remembers, and Karhold remembers-- what does the sword remember? The Targ colors are also fertile ground for speculation and symbolism outside of Jon but I won't go there.

Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king’s sword had only two.

Fullers are grooves that run down the length of the sword to reduce the mass in order to make the sword lighter while maintaining its strength. They are also referred to as "blood gutters" and I wonder if the two and three blood gutters has some meaning as well.

Tyrion notes how his Father never calls on him casually. Here, the only reason for the call is apparently to show him the swords. Sansa's continued virginity may be on his agenda as well but the swords seem to be the primary reason. This implies that there is far more to this than just an audience for his wedding present gloating.

[Lummel]

The meaning of the two versus three fullers is simply that Jaime's sword will be broader as well as longer than Joffrey's. There seems to be enough of a message in that Jaime is the one getting the bigger sword :)

I wouldn't be so bold as you were there Ragnorak to draw a distinction between the ruins of the Tarbucks and the Reynes not being rebuilt while Tyrion is seeing to the rebuilding of the port facilities. Tyrion is acting under Tywin's instructions, Tywin has decided that the docks must be rebuilt and paid for, he is the driving force here, Tyrion just an instrument.

Presumably the 'sharp lesson' of the Tarbucks and Reynes is one that Tywin wishes to remind people of in the Westerlands, but for King's Landing a bit of the old extravengance is more useful...so bring on the dancing bears!

[Ragnorak]

The meaning of the two versus three fullers is simply that Jaime's sword will be broader as well as longer than Joffrey's. There seems to be enough of a message in that Jaime is the one getting the bigger sword :)

When did you become so literal? :dunno:

I can't actually dispute it because I don't even have any bad crackpot ideas much less good reasonable ones to massage with a hammer, but the blood gutter image seemed like it might have potential. There's actually quite a few words dedicated to those swords and he already described the other sword as broader and longer so I thought the fullers in their own paragraph would have a meaning all their own.

There's the red drinking the sun from the Lannister version of the color and Tyrion's mention of crimson flashing prettily in the sun. There's a heavy connection between Lannisters and the sun (Lann stealing it to lighten his hair aside from the many Jaime Cersei sun references) and the fact that these swords won't take "the sun" is meaningful on multiple levels (especially with the black as night coloring.) The "half a hundred spells" recalls Rhaenys being stabbed half a hundred times and wrapped in Lannister red cloaks to hide the blood reminds me a little of the drinking the red. This also ties in with the Targ colors. Tyrion thinking of a unique sword with Targ colors also implies a second Targ (though not a third.) I'm sure there's an angle to look at this from that will make all the symbolism make more sense I just don't think I've found it yet.

[Lummel]

When did you become so literal? :dunno:...

:laugh: I don't know, but I don't seem to be able to stop it!

[Lykos]

Me posting here now is leaving procrastination behind and continuing with downright neglect of duty, but I wanted to wish everyone a merry Christmas, since I fear that many of you will be with their families or loved ones, when I´m free to peruse the forum again (tomorrow afternoon).

More than one fuller don´t serve any purpose, but ebellishment ( unless they´re grooves / taken away material, which would make it easier to balance the finished sword. That costs material though, that´s why I discount it as a possibility). :dunno:

Ice drinking up the red that flashes prettily the sun, both of which represent the Lannister colours is an ominous sign to my liking. The swords were meant to represent the opposite, Lannister defeat of the Starks.

Merry Christmas to everyone. :grouphug: (I wish this emoticon didn´t have so horrible colour clashes.)

[the Scorpion Knight]

tyrion and tywin inability to create reminds me of LotR:

the dark lord can't create, only corrupt and mock

intresting als of were tywin only saw failure in his father tyrion doesn't the the failures if tywin (every thing tywin created seems to be destroyed by his children)

and to the swords i think: these "grand" work of tywin will be undone Either in midst of battle these two swords clash and reform ice.

or a Dragon Delibaratly reforges the sword

[Lummel]

I had an odd thought. Even odder than normal.

I was wrapping things to get ready for the upcoming festival of Sevenmass and I was remembering the bits and pieces that Lykos had posted earlier about fairly tales, then I was thinking about the Grimm Brothers and then wondered if Tyrion was something of a Bluebeard, except the locked room is memory and in it he keeps not dead former wives but the memory of Tysha that poison all his subsequent relationships.

[Winterfellian]

First of all, I want to express my admiration to all of you who commented on the Sansa chapter. There were some really great posts, even if I didn't agree with all of them. I am sorry I missed it.

Whoops seems that I killed the thread with my last post! So moving swiftly backwards...

Not at all! Your analysis was as insightful and interesting as usual. I can't speak for everybody, but in my case I have been very busy with the upcoming holidays and I've been postponing posting until I found time to read the chapter :) Moving on...

One of the things the strike me in this chapter and I can't but hold it against Tyrion is the following:

This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him

To me he seems to be resentful on both his family and Sansa for his current situation, but conveniently doesn't place much blame in himself besides the acknowledgement that he's not fair looking and that he's a Lannister (2 things over which he had no control at all). I think what I find interesting is that he seems to think that Sansa's misery over the marriage relies mostly on the fact that he's a dwarf and a Lannister. I think he's subconsciously identifying 2 things that he could never change about himself in order to feel less guilty so to speak.

By focusing on 2 permanent conditions about himself Tyrion is conveniently avoiding to analyze his own actions- that although Sansa was "given" he accepted to go ahead with the match all the same and therefore holds responsability for her current misery. However, by placing the root of Sansa's condition on his looks and his name he is avoiding analyzing his own guilt because, after all, there is nothing he can do to change either:

No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister.

@Ragnorak, I love your references to Jon in the sword scene! (especially since I have a little pet theory that one this swords will somehow make it's way to Jon)

To take the example from Lykos, I too wish you all a Merry Christmas! May you all enjoy a happy fun filled day with your families and friends :grouphug:

[Lummel]

Well, friends, Romans, lurkers, I'm about to rush off to be away from the weirnet for some days too, but quickly I would like to wish you all a very happy observance of the winter festival in honour of the old gods, a jolly Sevenmass and for all you R'hlloristas that your night fires burn brightly, for remember knights are dark and full of terror!

[Woman of War]

Merry christmas from our favorite character

Size matters not, … Look at me. Judge me by size, do you?

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/351/1/b/christmas_yoda_by_antonvandort-d352o7h.jpg

May the force be with you!

[Ragnorak]

Merry Christmas, everyone :cheers: -- except the R'hilloristas. You guys are just getting coal in your stockings from that Christmas Tree you burned last year.

[Blisscraft]

Now that there is no one around to read this, I finally have time to post something I've been thinking about since Lummel presented the latest Tyrion chapter.

Ice - As Ragonorak noted above, Ice is a symbol of a defeated Winterfell. Also, the swords are a great segueway for Tywin to discuss Tyrion's unhappy marriage bed and a mean spirited tweak at Tyrion's lack of manliness. Swords are phallic symbols and Tyrion doesn't seem interest in persuing his marriage bed and creating heirs.

Now that Tywin has gone so far as to destroy Ice in its original form and had it remade into two other blades, it seems that the symbology has now gone from the purloined sword as a symbol of defeat to a "broken sword." It's been "broken" into two pieces just as in the Grail legends and many other sources (like TLoTR's and Aragorn's sword which was broken into two pieces in the book, not the movie. Also, we discussed Guernica earlier and there is a broken sword in the painting held by a severed arm; the other peice of the sword seems to be coming out of the horse's mouth).

The two pieces of what was once a whole, "Ice", Joff's sword and Jaime's, create a new inheritance for House Stark. An unbroken sword, as Ice once was, represented the Starks' legacy of courage, on one side, and their legacy of "spiritual aggression" on the other. (Not lambasting the Ned or House Stark, but the family past was no tip toe through the tulips with a nice big sword on hand in case someone wanted to cut a few posies for the family ewer. Swords are made to wound and kill. Ice was made so, too). The new inheritance has to do with the reassertion of a hero(s) who can, through great displays of personal valor and bravery "reforge" and "remake" what was broken or cleft in twain. This has yet to play out in the story, however, Ice's split into two parts strongly suggests the broken sword metaphor and the hero(s) who will rise to remake it to one sword.

I don't think Tyrion will be the hero to return the sword to one piece. It's probably presented in this chapter because it gives us an opportunity to find out a little more about the dagger used to attack Bran. Robert only ever used the one dagger given to him by Jon Arryn. All of the rest of "Robert's daggers" were unused except for the one taken to "finish the job" on Bran.

ETA: Happy Holidays, everyone!

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft, great catch on the broken sword heroic epic.

Reading your post also reminded me that giving the sword to Jaime is another example of Tywin taking an inheritance that is "by rights" Tyrion's and giving it to Jaime. I agree that the real purpose of the whole dagger aside is to set up the Joffrey being responsible for Bran's assassination reveal, but I wonder I'm curious about this.

Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift

Gerion was the Lannister who went questing for their Valyrian steel blade that was lost. Jaime is famous for his gilded sword and the sapphire seems like a Brienne reference. Not sure what to make of it beyond Jaime giving this sword that's intended for him to Brienne. There is an odd regifting parallel (to keep with the timely Christmas theme) between Tywin's suggestion that Tyrion take that dagger and Jaime's giving the sword to Brienne.

How did Tywin find out about Sansa continued virginity?

“Some page was telling Ser Tallad about it when I took Lollys to the sept. He had it from this serving girl who heard Ser Kevan talking to your father.”

We get this insight into how poorly secrets are kept in the Red Keep and this glaring blindspot nobles have for the information network of their servants. This blindspot that allowed the gossip chain to start also makes it unlikely that it was Tywin's source. I would throw LF out as a possibility but he's supposed to be in the Vale. As an aside, this gossip also tells us that the Tyrells knew as well and it makes their absence from the ceremony more glaring.

“If you mislike your wife’s servants, dismiss them and hire ones more to your liking. That is your right. It is your wife’s maidenhood that concerns me, not her maids. This… delicacy puzzles me. You seem to have no difficulty bedding whores. Is the Stark girl made differently?”

“Why do you take so much bloody interest in where I put my cock?”

Since Tywin even suggests the replacing of the maids I doubt these were his source which leaves Varys as the most likely candidate. Tywin's statement can be read as either simple prodding for political motivations or one with subtle hints of his intent to have Tyrion rape Sansa to turn her into the Imp's whore.

We also have more peculiarity with Tywin and marriage offers.

Lord Tywin gave him a chilly look. “She does not know. Nor will she. It is better for all of us if the offer was never made. See that you remember that, Tyrion. The offer was never made.”

Is it really such a public scandal if a Willas/Cersei marriage was turned down or is it only a personal scandal for Tywin? Also does this tell us anything about the QoT's agenda? She gave Sansa the silent treatment during her wedding but extends the invitation to Highgarden again at Joffrey's. Was Tyrion not the scapegoat yet or was the cold shoulder just for show? Does she have her own Rains of Castamere in mind for the Lannisters and doesn't want them having anymore heirs? Sansa/Willas can explain everything but with the silent treatment at her wedding I thought I'd throw it out there. I think it does tell us that Mace, despite being supposedly in charge, probably isn't in on the details of the Tyrell plan. Also. the Red Wedding hasn't happened yet and we already see Tywin's post-apocalypse plans starting to fall apart.

The Nights Watch

“Five kings?” His father was annoyed. “There is one king in Westeros. Those fools in black might try and remember that if they wish His Grace to heed them.

Acknowledging a King, any King, would effectively be "taking part." Prior to the Conquest the Watch would have sent out seven letters to seven Kings under similar circumstances. So their behavior is consistent with the vast majority of their 8,000 year history and their vows.

“Janos Slynt is a butcher’s son,” Tyrion reminded his father forcefully. “You yourself told me—”

“I recall what I told you. Castle Black is not Harrenhal, however. The Night’s Watch is not the king’s council. There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool.”

The Night’s Watch is a pack of thieves, killers, and baseborn churls, but it occurs to me that they could prove otherwise, given proper discipline.

It strikes me that Tywin believes he has just found himself a pack of lesser Gregors to unleash. Harrenhal is also an interesting reference on several levels. Yoren comments that Lady Whent was always a friend to the Watch. Harrenhal is an example of a Southron House that still holds the Watch in its old esteem that we still see throughout most of the North. The LC of the Watch was an honor akin to ruling one of the Seven Kingdoms of old so in that sense Castle Black is Harrenhal. One of Aemon's examples to Jon about "taking no part" was the Conquest when Harren the Black's brother (a King in Harrenhal) was LC with 10,000 swords and he took no part and I don't think that parallel is unintentional on Martin's part.

Hands of Gold

We haven't really touched on the song or the singer that much. On the sympathy front not only is the singer blackmailing Tyrion but he wants Tyrion to inflict harm upon another innocent singer. Tyrion is killing a man to safeguard his affair with Shae, but the victim is getting a bit of poetic justice as well. He also offers the man a generous "out." Maybe if Tyrion had already cut off his affair with Shae completely a case could be made that he's only protecting her, but he hasn't. There is a bit of a reference to the Rat Cook in that Symon is getting cooked and served to his audience but I can't see any guest right violation connection.

The final bit of irony is that Tyrion has been hung up on his lack of credit for the Blackwater and how all the singers are celebrating Renly's ghost. This is actually a very humanizing song about Tyrion and one that seems to make him the hero of the Blackwater. It also would serve to help refute his monkey demon image in the eyes of the smallfolk. Unintentional as it may be, the song also captures the spirit of his Tysha conflict. His silencing the singer speaks to his inability to publicly and consciously confront his Tysha episode.

[Woman of War]

I just thought how incredibly painful and embarrassing it must be for Tyrion when of all people Tywin takes an interest "where he puts his cock". Tywin denies all his children any right of privacy, here again we see him treating his offspring's minds like his own private territory. Well, on principle this was the way children were mostly seen in this timesetting but the treatment of Tyrion is extreme, like dirt to keep away from one's carpet while Jaime gets the more paternally condescending approach. And Cersei as daughter, well, is sent off out of the way as marriage material.

Off topic: they have made a masterpiece in the skinning the deer scene of Tywin with Jaime, the radiant hero shrinking to a fourteen year old boy in the presence of his father. I wonder if Dance and Dinklage will be equally painfully fascinating in S 3, I guess they will.

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - In the old stories regarding the "broken sword" often the mending must be given to one who is worthy to perform the task. "Regifting," (very funny, BTW. Hope you don't "regift." The only thing I might regift is a fruitcake. Sorry to all you fruitcake lovers out there, including my my mom. I would never regift a nice Camenbert) a piece of what needs to be restored to a potential hero is common. Just as are heros who can't quite measure up to the task, Gawain being one example.

As for the song, it is simultaneosly annoying, and insightful in that line, "hands of gold are always cold. . . " It says a lot about the Lannister clan. All of that gold without human warmth. Also, it's insightful in that Tyrion seeks warmth from a secret woman, not his wife.

Finaly, just wanted to a bit about the notion of "gossip." Gossiping has its origins as early christening celebrations. Its function was to gather together the women (mostly) associated with the birth of a newborn as it was accepted into the christian community, blessed and prayed for as well as the child's "godmothers," and other female relatives who may bestow gifts upon the child.

In fairy tales, especially Sleeping Beauty, we have a "gossiping" where several fairies gather to bestow upon the newborn various gifts and talents as the child grows to adulthood. However, one of the fairies is excluded from the ceremony and consquently curses the baby instead. However, this "curse" sets in motion the burden that must be overcome in order for the child to fulfill her/his destiny thereby enriching the kingdom for years to come.

In the case of Tyrion and Sansa's marriage, gossip serves to bring about blessings and curses; truths and falsehoods. This creates a situation where the piece left out of the marriage, "the curse," the lack of sexual initmacy between the partners, will ultimately serve the kingdom.

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft - Love the gossiping reference and the tie to fairy tales.

I've been pondering your earlier promise ideas but still don't have anything. This line with the singer made me think of it.

“That will not be necessary,” said Tyrion. “You have my word as a Lannister, Bronn will call upon you soon.”

I included all the "On my honor as a <blank>" references (at least in the first three books) in the Sansa wedding post except for Dontos telling Sansa "On my honor as a knight" in the Godswood because that wasn't a House. Tyrion's locations for the first two to Cat are the Crossroads Inn and the road to the Vale and then finally in a marriage bed to Sansa. Jaime's is a dungeon cell in Riverrun. These are not really promises so much as assertions of innocence except Tyrion to Sansa. I focused on those because "On my honor as a House Name" shows up only 5 times in three books and all centered around protection of the Stark children which seemed a curious coincidence.

With Dontos it is more of a promise, but he isn't a knight as Sansa points out nor does he believe in the Old Gods. Tyrion is making a promise to the singer in a hovel of a bar, and while sincere it is a very Lannister promise far from the hearer's understood meaning. This is closer to Tyrion's "one day when you think you're safe" promise to Cersei which was also made with a drink in his hand. I don't see a unifying theme in the locations or a common thread of belief in that which is sworn upon. I really like the idea of the locations and what is sworn upon having meaning despite not being able to find a unifying theme.

[Uncat]

I think this Sansa chapter is one of the best written in the books. And you have made a wonderful post about it, Ragnorak.

(...)

Woman of War, I wish I could double or tripple like this post. It's heads on what I felt reading this cheapter.

(Sorry, no further contribution, still limping behind)

[Uncat]

Sorry to be limping behind, but this is an addition to the Sansa chapter. I love it how GRRM plays with the reader's learned expectations. This is so much the beauty and the beast, Christine and the opera's phantom or Esmeralda and the hunchback: The ugly guy has the beautyfull girl at his mercy, but the ugly guy - the beast - turns out to be a better man then most and refrains, from what it/he could do. Then, to the readers delight (after all he/she knows the inner beauty of the beast), this very act secures the love of the beauty (not the physical love of course, but the deep affection).

Even though this chapter is a Sansa chapter, it is truely a Tyrion chapter. Taking Sansa point of view, it forces the reader into Tyrions head, wishing, praying and longing for this one absolution which the readers knows from oh so many books and films: I, Tyrion the Beast, will behave as the best of man would and thus earn the respect and the love of the beauty. Not now, but surly sometime down the road. This is a litterary deal as old a litaretur itself.

Only that this time the absolution does not happen. In the "ordinary" course of events, the reader is allowed to leave the beast behind following the heroine after her display of affection. The beast has gotten its reward and the heroine is free. When this happens, the reader, who was made to be emphatic with the beast is also freed from feeling for the beast and can join the beauty.

But not this time. Tyrion is denied the usual literary solution. Even though the beast behaves, the maiden does not show affection. The deal is broken and this makes the reader stay stuck with the beast.

Tyrion is one of the most ambivalent characters in this books and this is one of the chapters, where GRRM ties the knot between the readers and this character.

Sorry, if this sounds a little confused. It is very late (or very early) and I had a Mai Thai or two to much.

What I want to say is this: By making Tyrion a beast, a gargoyle with a hugh erection, GRRM offers a an age old plot to the readers. But he does not fulfill it and many readers will fall for it and rather than feeling happy for Sansa, who was spared the rape, they will feel sad for Tyrion who was the denied the affection, which by this plot would have been his revard. Thus this chapter deepens the connection with Tyrion.

[A wilding]

I included all the "On my honor as a <blank>" references (at least in the first three books) in the Sansa wedding post except for Dontos telling Sansa "On my honor as a knight" in the Godswood because that wasn't a House. Tyrion's locations for the first two to Cat are the Crossroads Inn and the road to the Vale and then finally in a marriage bed to Sansa. Jaime's is a dungeon cell in Riverrun. These are not really promises so much as assertions of innocence except Tyrion to Sansa. I focused on those because "On my honor as a House Name" shows up only 5 times in three books and all centered around protection of the Stark children which seemed a curious coincidence.

Since you are collating, there is one other in ASoS, though it has not happened yet:

UnBeric Dondarrion: ... I can at least see that you are returned safely to your mother's arms.

Arya: Do you swear?

UnBeric Dondarrion (solemnly): On my honour as a knight.