Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[the Scorpion Knight]

what I find amusing is that both lannister parties are right in regard of LF: he is unable to hold it on the long term(thanks to mountain clans) and he is dangerous to them(as we all know how and why)

what I also find intresting.

they underestimate stannis stubborness and that the north didn't even throw all of their strength to war (a.k.a they still got reserves something the lannisters seem very soon to lack)

[Winterfellian]

Great post Butterbumps!

I agree with Brascandy that we have reach controversy central indeed. Although am afraid am in disagreement with other parts of your post :) TBH I took a more sympathetic view of Tyrion's reaction to the marriage.

However, my assessment of this chapter has always been that Tyrion doesn't really put up much of a fight over the marriage, and his protests aren't really protests, but rather comes across as almost languid verbal sparring with his father, all in an effort to be seduced into marrying Sansa. I think this part is quite revealing:

I agreed that Tyrions excuses may seem feeble but I believe they are meant to sound feeble but not because he's looking to be persuaded into the marriage. I feel there is a combination of cirscumtance that make Tyrion's excuses sound more like formal protests than real reasons for not wanting the marriage. One being Tywin's excessive control over his children's life which is almost always met with acquiescence by their parts, even if there's internal disapproval.

The second and I feel the most telling reason is that Tyrion himself cannot verbalize to his father why he doesn't want the marriage in the first place (Shae is all the woman I need now/she (Shae) will not like this) Since he knows he can't articulate the real reason he doesn't want to do it he has to come up with other arguments that may seem acceptable to Tywin. These other arguments by virtue of not being the true reason behind Tyrion's disapproval resonate as feeble excuses. To me the scene read like when you're trying to come up with excuses for not doing something you have to do without revealing the real reason. (For example, if someone was refusing to go over to dinner party at a friend's house because he doesn't like his/her cooking but instead of voicing the real reason comes up with excuses-I gotta get up early the next day, am working late that night, I have a previous commitment, am sick, etc) By not being able to really elaborate his real objection to the match Tyrion is stuck with having to come up with others that might be acceptable to his father.

When Tywin asked him why would he hesitate Tyrion reflects to himself:

Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth and still a maid. Why should you hesitate?

Why indeed?

At this point Tyrion had already voiced most of his objections for the match (possibly offending the Tyrells, Sansa being married to a Lannister is very cruel, she's a child, send her to her mother as a faith gesture for peace) and still Tywin is not budging and demands to know why is Tyrion hesitating. I took the why indeed as corroboration that Tyrion is looking for more excuses to give him in replacement of his true objection. Why indeed?-what more reasons can I give him that he could accept. Is then that Tyrion proceeds to elaborate others: I want a wife who wants me in her bed, Why not Asha Greyjoy? Robb will produce heirs.

Here is when Tyrion begins to acquiesce. He’s never considered that he would have such a theoretically pleasing option as Sansa in marriage, and he feels like the world’s turned upside down. I take this to mean that he’d never let himself dream of having someone like Sansa, and that now that it seems the option is there, he realizes that he wants to take it, despite not having wanted it previously.

I really liked this observation Butterbumps! And I agree with you completely. For Tyrion the option of someone like Sansa, even as a political marriage, never factored as a possibility and so it stands to reason that he is moved by it, even if it is against a part of his consience. To me this reminded me a lot of Jon's plight when Stannis offered him Winterfell (sorry to deviate a little from the subject, but I think there's some strong contrasts and paralles between the 2 in this cirscumtances)

Much like Tyrion never dreamed of a wife like Sansa, Jon never dreamed of the possibility of getting Winterfell. Both of them were conscious that their status as a bastard and a dwarf prevented this from happening. However when the opportunity presented himself (note that in both cases WF is being offered by someone who has no right to it) they are both tempted, and what is more, discovered that they both wanted what was being offered. So ends the parallels since in the end they both chose very different roads.

My point with this is that I do not think that Tyrion's eventual acceptance is done out of evil or that it makes him evil (I read a post a long while back stating this) no more than an acceptance from Jon would have been or make Jon evil. In the end I think Tyrion was simply weak. Am not saying that he is in the right, but that he is...well, human. When tempted with something he wanted, had always wanted, he gave in.

“A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court….and away from Cersei and their father.”

Even though at the beggining he didn't had the intentions to proceed with the match, in the end he had too much weakness of will to stick to his resolve. He isn't necessarily acting against his better judgement, but fails to act to his original intentions and thus lets his desires to rule over his conscience.

[Ragnorak]

A couple thoughts.

“It’s swords Joff needs, not toasts,” she snapped. “His realm is still plagued with would-be usurpers and self-styled kings.”

“But not for long, I think,” said Varys unctuously.

What does Varys mean by this? Does he know of Joffrey's impending fate?

I also think that it isn't entirely accurate to say Tyrion and Cersei were bickering. Cersei is going at Tyrion but he never shoots back in favor of continuing to unload on Littlefinger. A small point but significant since he currently believes Cersei is out to kill him.

Tywin and Marriage Contracts

I'm a bit hung up on Tywin and marriages. We're told Aerys never left the Red Keep after Duskendale except for the Tournament of the False Spring but he also left for a Tournament at Casterly Rock where Cersei marriage to Rhaegar was turned down. Cersei was told by Genna that morning that there would be a feast to celebrate but the feast never came since Aerys turned down the marriage. This means that Tywin only brought up the marriage that day after Cersei's talk with Genna. What premise did he use to get Aerys to leave the Red Keep? Why did he not bring up the subject before that? This is just a remarkably odd incident and a shockingly amateur if not outright incompetent way to broker a marriage. So I enter this chapter with huge questions about Tywin's methods of arranging marriages.

Here are Tywin's supposed attempts to arrange marriages for Tyrion.

When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter.”

“When I offered you to Dorne I was told that the suggestion was an insult,” Lord Tywin continued. “In later years I had similar answers from Yohn Royce and Leyton Hightower. I finally stooped so low as to suggest you might take the Florent girl Robert deflowered in his brother’s wedding bed, but her father preferred to give her to one of his own household knights.

We'll later learn the truth of the Dorne offer from Oberyn. Joanna and the ruling Princess of Dorne were so close personally and politically that Oberyn and Elia knew the other stops were a front and they planned to marry two of their children. Joanna died in childbirth and Tyrion was offered as a means of saying "no" to Jaime as an intentional insult. The pointless alienation of Dorne gained him nothing and also calls into question how Tywin handles marriage negotiations.

I don't know if these marriages were wholly delusions in Tywin's head much similar to Cersei and Rhaegar or if they were insults he tossed out like Dorne. I can't imagine any of these other offers were more serious than his Dorne offer. We don't hear anything about a Tyrion or Jaime marriage potential which i would think would be brought up given Lysa imprisoning Tyrion and the current Lannister conflict. We also don't hear anything about Jaime's time in Riverrun so maybe this doesn't mean anything. Tywin was rather upset at Jaime joing the KG so he may have thrown Tyrion out to Hoster much like he did to Dorne. I can possibly see Tywin using a Tyrion marriage comment as a way of calling the Florent girl a whore. Royce has one daughter, Ysilla, who marries a Redfort later in the series to Mya Stone's dismay. I can't see a connection or any great political value for the Lannisters other than Tywin insulting Bronze Yohn during Jon Arryn's time as Hand. Leyton Hightower has a number of children including Mace Tyrell's wife and Jorah Mormont's Lynesse. The Tournament Jorah won was in Lannisport so maybe there's a connection there. I don't see any of these as serious marriage contract attempts though.

The Rains of Castamere

The Northern forces have already attacked Duskendale which means Roose Bolton has already been promised Winterfell and "Arya" for Ramsay (another unspoken reason Tywin's sweet on LF) and Lord Paramount and Warden of the North for himself. He's dangling Winterfell for Tyrion but he's already promised it to Roose. Previously Tywin spoke of what he is compelled to do by gods and men but neither respecting guest right or allowing Tyrion to turn Casterly Rock into his whorehouse were among them. I think we have sufficient indication that Tywin views this marriage as turning Sansa into Tyrion's whore and the dwarf's leavings to taint any value she'll ever have. He wants Sansa paraded around court married to Tyrion as his little bird chirping the Rains of Castamere everywhere she goes.

Consider Kevan's assessment here of the Westerlings.

Lady Sybell’s grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he’d brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess.

Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I’ll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood…”

LF's grandfather was a sellsword also from Essos (where trader's are certainly of higher birth than sellswords) so he can't possibly be of any higher birth the Westerlings yet here they agree to the marriage to Lysa and giving him the Riverlands.

I think this entire setup from Tywin is entirely about pulling a Rains of Castamere and very little about the most pragmatic way to secure a Lannister dynasty despite whatever rational pretense he puts forth. I think Martin tells us this in so many words.

“The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere,” Tyrion pointed out. “You’d think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there.”

“Mayhaps they have,” Lord Tywin said. “They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you.”

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold.

[Lummel]

Just to add to that comment about tywin marriage negotiation technique - there is something weird there about Lysa Tully because we will later learn that Jaime was sent on an excuse to Riverrun he thinks in retrospect with the intention of getting him engaged to Lisa but he was too much attracted to the Blackfishes stories to pay Lysa any heed (Jaime V AFFC).

So Tywin could be lying and transferring the Jaime engagement to Tyrion (and why not? It is not as though Hoster Tully is going to rise up from the dead to speak the truth), Tywin could be very bad at arranging marriages - the Lysa/Jaime match was apparently cooked up by Crakenhall and Tully which is really very interesting...- but anyhow if Tywin approached Hoster after a failed overture to Jaime it is no surprise that Tyrion was rejected.

[Lyanna Stark]

The second and I feel the most telling reason is that Tyrion himself cannot verbalize to his father why he doesn't want the marriage in the first place (Shae is all the woman I need now/she (Shae) will not like this) Since he knows he can't articulate the real reason he doesn't want to do it he has to come up with other arguments that may seem acceptable to Tywin.

I thought of this too, but it is odd since what is it to Shae is Tyrion gets married? She can still be his mistress and he can still see her. Indeed we know that he does. Shae, unlike Tyrion, as we have seen, knows who she is and what she is. Tyrion is the one who is engaging in self deception in so far as that he pretends or wants to pretend that there are real feelings between them, while really Shae is bought and paid for, nothing else.

Just to add to that comment about tywin marriage negotiation technique - there is something weird there about Lysa Tully because we will later learn that Jaime was sent on an excuse to Riverrun he thinks in retrospect with the intention of getting him engaged to Lisa but he was too much attracted to the Blackfishes stories to pay Lysa any heed (Jaime V AFFC).

I agree. There's also a question mark regarding the time frame, since Lysa is the younger sister and Cat was wed at 17-18, I think, to Ned. Lysa would have been very young indeed if Tywin was trying to arrange a marriage for Tyrion with her (if he indeed did), being two years Cat's junior, and married at around 16 to Jon Arryn. At which point she had already been pregnant with LF's child and had it aborted, so she was hardly prime marrying material after that incident.

The whole thing enhances the impression that Tywin is not being wholly truthful with Tyrion regarding the marriage alliances he has tried to create in the past and that it's told in such a way as to herd Tyrion towards Tywin's "Rains of Castamere" scenario, which he is trying to create for the Tullys and the Starks.

[Lummel]

On the other hand to get all Freudian again, if subconsciously Shae is a Mother-substitute then that is an exclusive relationship. Even if Tyrion is thinking about her Romantically then quite plausibly he sees it as an exclusive relationship. It is Shae who sees their interactions realistically (as we see in the next chapter too).

[butterbumps!]

I was wondering about Mandon Moore again, given the long mentions of LF here. I was wondering if it's possible that LF was behind this one, too (I know Mandon is from the Vale). For some reason, I'm not so sure it was Cersei. Is there a theory about this?

[Lummel]

How do you mean Butterbumps! ? A theory about Cersei being behind it or a theory about Littlefinger being behind it? Both exist I'm sure.

I was glancing over this the other day and the author thinks that Cersei was behind it. Varys we've already seen hints at Mandon Moore (turning over stones in the Vale). I'd tend to rule out Cersei because Tyrion spent all that time semi-conscious under, apparently ultimately, Cersei's care. With all Tyrion's injuries no one would have been surprised if he had died. Would it have been so difficult to have had him poisoned or had him suffocated during that time?

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think he was acting on his own for the percieved slight he gained he gained when tyrion vame to KL as hand

[Ragnorak]

BB -- I am fairly convinced it is LF. Sansa's invitation to the Godswood comes in the first line of her chapter immediately following Tyrion's bogus Harrenhal offer to LF. He set things in motion and had the ruse lasted much longer he might have been entirely undone. Plus all the Cersei assets Tyrion was eliminating were really LF's. Just as Tyrion sees LF as far more dangerous in the council meeting where the twincest comes up, I suspect LF realized Tyrion was too great a risk as well. Coincidentally, LF happens to be out of KL when it happens which fits his MO.

On Tyrion accepting the Sansa marriage:

If one wants to argue that it was cruel of Tyrion to acept the marriage there is more than ample evidence.

“His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa’s life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father.”

“Why, do you plan to mistreat her?” His father sounded more curious than concerned. “The girl’s happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark.”

Tyrion says it would be cruel even for Tywin (and that says a good deal) and at the end agrees to it. That is as open and shut a case as they come for anyone who wants to make it.

I subscribe more to the Lummel school of thought where we never overestimate Tyrion's capacity for self delusion. I see a good bit of Tyrion trying to work out Tysha which he still can't do because he doesn't know the whore aspect was a lie. I read him moving more into selfish and self delusional territory than cruel and i also think the 8 denials and him trying to puzzle out the trap and his father's agenda are very important.

Part of my more sympathetic take on this is that believing Tywin wants a Rains of Castamere and not a marriage combined with his Tyrell imposed deadline I read this as a moment where Sansa is shielded from a far far worse fate. The other marriage options for Sansa are really non-options. If Tyrion had taken the opportunity to marry Sansa over a candidate he believed she'd be truly happier with I would have a dramatically more negative take. Probably the same would happen if I didn't believe Tywin had a sinister fate intended for her.

As we've seen so far in Tyrion he's really only grey because his very black and very white have collided internally so often. Reading this as a very black moment for Tyrion isn't inconsistent with his past patterns at all. From Sansa's perspective this is wholly cruel regardless of Tyrion's benevolence or malice as Tyrion himself observes in the beginning.

I think there's a lot going on in Tyrion's 8 objections and I don't think Tyrion's cruelty is the proper lens to view this. The cruelty is Tywin's and the way Tyrion embraces and rejects (successfully or not) Tywin's cruelty is what matters for his development here.

[Winterfellian]

I thought of this too, but it is odd since what is it to Shae is Tyrion gets married? She can still be his mistress and he can still see her. Indeed we know that he does. Shae, unlike Tyrion, as we have seen, knows who she is and what she is. Tyrion is the one who is engaging in self deception in so far as that he pretends or wants to pretend that there are real feelings between them, while really Shae is bought and paid for, nothing else.

I think you're right to ask the bold part. Indeed, what is it to Shae? Not much certainly. But the odd part you refer to can be explained if we ask ourselves is What does Tyrion thinks it is to Shae should he get married? Remember that one of his first reactions is:

Shae will not like this, for all she swears she is content to be my whore.

We know that Shae doesn't care much (in fact she has reminded him many times that she is his whore) I think the fact that Tyrion thinks of Shae as a reason shows how deluded he is in regards to her, but I do think she is the main reason. At this point I think that Tyrion has forgotten or chose to ignore the basis upon which their relations were bulid (employer-sex worker) and against hid better judgement has fallen for her and sees the whole thing as an exclusive relationship (In fact Shae wasn't allow to take other men to her bed from the very start and Tyrion hasn't take another woman to his) In his own queer way he had keep faith with her, something that reminds me a bit of Jaime remaining faithful to Cersei

And he can't give her up, not even for her own sake as proven when he decided to keep her even with Tywin's threat to hang any whore he finds in his bed. It is a very possessive sort of relationship, but in Tyrion's at this point mind a relationship nonetheless. .

How could I let this happen after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks?

[Elba the Intoner]

Great job, Butterbumps. This is a very dense chapter. I just wanted to point out this little bit that jumped out at me this time:

When talking about how the new High Septon must have a new crown, Tywin says that he must have a crown at the king's wedding, then turns to Cersei and says "Cersei, summon your goldsmiths, we must see to a replacement." He did not wait for a reply but turned at once to Varys. "You have reports?"

The way he dismisses Cersei here just reminds me of a more modern day chauvinistic boss who only thinks a woman is good for fetching his coffee. I could just picture him in a business suit saying, "Cersei get me my coffee! " Between this and the whole brood mare discussion where Cersei is very put off at marrying again, it's no wonder Cersei has such a complex about the way women are treated differently from men and feels like her only purpose is to be a brood mare. Even Tyrion kinda, sorta ends up feeling a little sorry for her.

[Blisscraft]

Tywin is King (de facto, but King nonetheless)

This POV begins with Tyrion watching his father enter the council chamber. If I were a film maker, I would shoot this very like Scorsese's single camera tracking shot from Goodfellas. In it, the camera follows a couple from their parked car across the street, to the back entrance of a nightclub, down the club's steps, through doors past workers, through the club's busy kitchen, past waiters carrying trays and ultimately finds the couple seated at a perfectly prepared table right in front of the stage. (This type of shot is probably an homage to Welles, but that's another matter entirely).

The language describing Tywin's entry and ultimate seating at the council table is active and cinematic. Tywin "greets each member in turn," a quiet word with Varys, kissed the High Septon's ring and then Cersei's cheek, clasped the hand of Grand Maester Pycelle, and then seated himself at the head of the long table between his daughter and his brother. This grand entrance is juxtaposed with Tyrion, already in place, propped up on cushions like a little child seated at the "adult table" for Christmas dinner. As noted above, Tywin and Tyrion are opposed by placement with each other: Tywin at one end; Tyrion at the other. All of the others "scrambled" for a seat once Tywin is seated. Tywin is in charge. He is secure. He dominates everyone present. He seems to accomplish this effortlessly.

It is so wonderfully ironic that the only person at the table, (in spite of all of the plots and plans and treacheries and insubordinations, past, present and future), that can undo Tywin is opposite him: Tyrion. Talk about your David and Goliath. ^_^

Function Jungtion (Sorry, Lummel, it's truly terrible)

Don't want to get too into Jung about his well known types (extrovert and introvert) but with regard to how types function, the seating arrangement seems relevant. According to Jung, for extroverts the external object is of greatest interest. Extroversion is further characterized by

"responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintences, none too carefully selected, and finally, by the great importance attached the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of one's self."

The extrovert's psychic life is "enacted outside himself, in the environment." Tyrion and Twyin are both extroverts. The externals are more important than the internals. However, the difference between them is characterized by the conscious functions with which each character relies upon for his respective "principal use." Jung lists the four functions as:" thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition."

When arranged in a diagram, the four functions form a cross, with a rational axis (consisting of thinking and feeling) intersecting an irrational axis (consisting of sensation and intuition). At one axis, there is Tywin, a thinking type. At the other is Tyrion a feeling type. At the other axis, there is Tywin, a sensate and at the other is Tyrion, an intuituve.

At this point apologies to Jung, especially, and to other posters who may find this fantastically boring, as the above is a great distillation of a superior mind. It's kinda like squeezing a continent into a thimble. However, Martin is so adept in his construction of this scene, I thought it worthy to note. Also, this is not the first time we find these two at a "cross roads," that was the name of the inn in the Riverlands. Also, their "cross" purposes were explored previously in the chapter regarding the disposition of Casterly Rock.

[butterbumps!]

I think you're right to ask the bold part. Indeed, what is it to Shae? Not much certainly. But the odd part you refer to can be explained if we ask ourselves is What does Tyrion thinks it is to Shae should he get married? Remember that one of his first reactions is:

We know that Shae doesn't care much (in fact she has reminded him many times that she is his whore) I think the fact that Tyrion thinks of Shae as a reason shows how deluded he is in regards to her, but I do think she is the main reason. At this point I think that Tyrion has forgotten or chose to ignore the basis upon which their relations were bulid (employer-sex worker) and against hid better judgement has fallen for her and sees the whole thing as an exclusive relationship (In fact Shae wasn't allow to take other men to her bed from the very start and Tyrion hasn't take another woman to his) In his own queer way he had keep faith with her, something that reminds me a bit of Jaime remaining faithful to Cersei

And he can't give her up, not even for her own sake as proven when he decided to keep her even with Tywin's threat to hang any whore he finds in his bed. It is a very possessive sort of relationship, but in Tyrion's at this point mind a relationship nonetheless. .

I don't think our interpretations of this are dramatically different, but I don't think Shae herself is truly Tyrion's fundamental motivation in being reluctant. I think the issue here is similar to the issue we'll see in the bedding scene. Tyrion really yearns for love; Shae happens to be a very talented prostitute, who is very convincing about the love illusion. I think the issue here is more that Tyrion wants to be in a situation where he feels loved and desired, not something likely to come from an arranged marriage. Prostitutes by their nature cater to making men feel these things, and his thoughts here, in conjunction with the bedding disaster, lead me to believe it has more to do with Tyrion's overwhelming desire for affection.

[Lummel]

...It is so wonderfully ironic that the only person at the table, (in spite of all of the plots and plans and treacheries and insubordinations, past, present and future), that can undo Tywin is opposite him: Tyrion. Talk about your David and Goliath... At one axis, there is Tywin, a thinking type. At the other is Tyrion a feeling type. At the other axis, there is Tywin, a sensate and at the other is Tyrion, an intuituve...

That was a pretty terrible pun...I :laugh: ed

I remember reading somewhere that the seating arrangements, particularly in business meeting are important, sadly I forget the details but depending on where you place people relative to the chairperson who can influence whether they will support or oppose the chair. The kind of five or seven o'clock position that Tyrion is in is the oppositional position and the meeting is a kind of duel between the two of them.

[Lykos]

Winterfellian and butterbumps!, I think Shae is connected to his reluctance, since she represents his relationship with Tysha, that he is reenacting.

I think Tyrion feels subonciously guilty for betraying Tysha, but is unable to adress or even admit it. He had decided, unlike "the little Mermaid", to put the "knife" in and take his "true love´s" heartblood in order to return to his famiy. He has chosen Casterly Rock, but he lost faith in love. The best he now can do is live this illusion, and that´s why he stays true to Shae, to uphold the illusion, even though he lusts for other women. That´s why Alayaya thought he wouldn´t help Dancy to the black pearls.

This is something he can not possibly use in an arguement with Tywin, because he´s not fully aware of this himself and even worse he conciously chose ambition over sentiment to gain Tywin´s respect. (I really suck at expressing what I feel.)

ETA: Ragnorak, your post gives me some trouble concerning the timeline. I had the feeling that the arrangement between Roose and Tywin was fixed only after Joffrey´s wedding. The "fake Arya" deal and Littlefinger´s leaving sugest you´re right and much earlier I suspected Tywin of an alliance with Roose, even before Roose took Harrenhal, which was rebuffed by the new app. I need to take a closer look at the timeline.

ETA2: Blisscraft, in german sensation is called Wahrnehmung and intuition - Erinnerung. I would have translated Wahrnehmung as perception and Erinnerung as memory. Clearly these terms have been specifically defined in Jung´s scientific work. I just mention this to explain possible future misunderstandings.

ETA3: Blisscraft, it appears that I have mixed up Jung´s concept of complex with the introversion vs. extroversion concept you refered to. The thing is that the german terms are so close they could be interpreted / defined in the same way, they obviously are not. Sensation is Empfindung and intuition is Intuition/ Einsicht. My bad sorry.

[Blisscraft]

Lykos, since I have absolutely no knowlege of German, I am completely at your mercy and the mercy of the translator, RFC Hull, of Jung's 1921 essay quoted above. This essay, "Introduction," was published in English as part of Jung's Collected Works.

The Merling King is an interesting name for a ship for LF. Mostly, because, once again I'm out of my comfort zone, a "merling" is a character from D&D. It seems that in world of D&D, merlings (and their King?) live beneath the sea and only come out rarely. From this and the first Davos chapter in ASOS, the "spears" of the Merling King seem to be rocks, "monts," that jut up out of the ocean floor and for every "spear" that breaks the water's surface, there are a dozen lurking "treacherously" beneath it. As, LF's choice, the vessel's name seems a good fit, as he can be dangerous, like a spear of the Meriling King, as he works beneath the surface, plotting and scheming, and for every one of his schemes we see, there are probably a dozen lurking treacherously that we don't see. Also, the idea that LF would fancy himself a "King" is a bit over the top, but I never underestimate ambition in Martin's world. It's seems like there is plenty and in the most unlikely places.

Tywin's smile

I so love that Martin expresses it as Tywin "threatened to smile." "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them." Martin gives Tywin the last word on all of the plans, be it in the War(s) or the Wedding(s). The quote is similar to one from John Ray, best known as the father of naturalism, from his book of Proverbs (1670), "Better the last to smile that the first to laughter." However, it's telling that Tywin uses the word "fools" as part of the message to Tyrion.

[Lykos]

Blisscraft, I didn´t want to force you out of your comfort zone. The "spears" of the Merling King is really interesting, I don´t know much about D&D (I still do not understand the simpsons joke where Homer is slain by an elf), but I think there is a connection to Cthulhu.

This is way out of my comfort zone. Actually that´s what I wanted to say with my comments on Jung - that his work, as well as Adler and Freud, is out of my comfort zone. Even though I´ve read some of their work, I need to refresh my memory every time they´re mentioned and the terms they use are defined by them in their work and these definitions often differ from the ones that spring to my mind.

Other works are much more present in my mind and they are mostly critical of these pioneers of analytical psychology and I only comprehend them enough to be sceptical. So the whole thing was about me misunderstanding and I think I gave a good example with edit 2 and 3. :blushing: :lol:

"Better the last to smile than the first to laughter." This is much better than the german, "Wer zuletzt lacht, lacht am besten."

[Blisscraft]

Thank you, Lykos, I never have been much of a "game" player as in D&D. I prefer to play all by myself. I'm very much the introvert in that respect. As for psycobable, I had to learn about it in school. Then, as a lawyer, I had to learn more about it as at one time I worked a large state hospital for the mentally ill. I do love Jung. He's a soul searcher and understands the power of images and icons.

[Lummel]

Oh don't worry Lykos, those translated terms have a long history in English which however inaccurate they may be won't be changed now.

I'm only keen myself to bring in a bit of Freud and Jung (and I'm no expert, just a layman) because I suspect that it the kind of thing that GRRM would have been exposed to in college in the 1960s, rather like his Catholic upbringing means that some kinds of associations and images are going to come to him more naturally than if he had been brought up in a different faith. :dunno:

I always assumed these Merlings were the Westeros version of Mermaids and mermen, so something that is between two worlds and neither one thing nor another...but you people say that a Merling is something else maybe?