Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Lykos]

A wildling, nice try this "defence". ^_^ I agree Tywin does think that Bolton will have huge trouble.

<snip> Tywin has no intention of helping the Watch: “King robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.” (Mance a useful Lannister ally :lmao: ).

<snip >

We know that Robb is out of the equation in Tywin´s mind and he had seen Tyrion take command of the Mountain Clans, so he might not think wildlings led by Tyrion as ridiculous as butterbumps! or I do.

But I don´t think for a second that he will invest one bit of Lannister strength into winning the North, as he is unwilling (or unable ?) to help the Iron Throne with Lannister gold.

Tyrion is bound to the immense task of managing the realm´s finances for at least a decade, I´d guess. Unless he fails, in which case he can expect even less support. The main point, I think, is to have Tyrion agree to abdicate the claim to Casterly Rock, just as Lummel says.

<snip>

More interesting is the seduction, not the seduction of possessing a pretty young wife and becoming the owner of a great Lordly hall but the way that this is a seduction to lure Tyrion away from Casterly Rock and he falls for it. Once he's lord protector of Winterfell and busy fighting the ironborn and the Boltons to secure the future of the unborn Jaime Stark then he is out of the running for the succession to Casterly Rock. And if Winterfell should be transformed into a whorehouse, Casterly Rock remains inviolate. For Tywin then this is the perfect scheme.

<snip>

I´m still unsure wether Tywin already secured Jeyne Pool as fake Arya or aranged it via raven later on. Do we have other hints,when exactly the deal with Bolton is made?

ETA: Ran´s timeline

Okay, I've done some fixing anyways. It's true Fat Walda's marriage is made out to seem to take place way too late, which is in error.

The actual timeline is:

1) Robb goes west, captures the Crag

2) Sybelle and Rolph size him up and throw Jeyne at him (making her tend him, spending long hours together without any interruptions, etc.), figuring a young idealist like him will feel compelled to marry her if young hormones take their course.

3) They inform Tywin in secret, so he understands that they're doing this to help the Lannister cause. He can guess the Frey reaction to this news. He may well be the one to initiate overtures, actually.

4) Harrenhal and the Twins learn of the marriage. The Freys are angered, Roose Bolton sees opportunity. He sends off Tallhart and Glover.

4b?) Ravens start zipping off between the Twins and/or Harrenhal and King's Landing, negotiating over betraying Robb. "More wars are won with quills than swords", or whatever the line is.

5) Roose visits the Twins and marries Walda, sealing his alliance with the Freys and joining in their plot against Robb.

ETA2: I think the war was started when Jaime attacked the Ned.

[Lummel]

Jeyne Poole was in Littlefinger's keeping. He must hand her over to Tywin at some point after the battle of the blackwater and before his 'departure' after the events in this chapter.

Presumably she is part of Tywin's offer to Roose along with the legitimation of Ramsey and the wardenship of the north.

[Blisscraft]

I mean no defence of Tywin either, however he's one smart cookie. I wish that he "appeared" as diabolical as Mr Burns, or Satan with a goatee, horns, cloven hooves and a long pointy tail. (Pitchfork optional). The real key to his success seems to be how well he understands the need to "keep up appearances." All of the propsed marriages are a means of creating the image of Westeros as one big family. (Excluding any Targs of course, since Aerys wouldn't align his family with "the help." Appearances, you know. Targs are only good enough for their own family).

This aspect of Tywin personality suggests that he may not have supported Aerys at all. Once insulted, plans were made, letters written and ravens flew. The rest is usurpation and "history."

[Lummel]

we come not to praise Tywin but to bury him? :laugh:

For me this is like the Greek in The Wire "business, always business". The death of Robb and Sansa's suffering are just collateral damage on the highroad to achieving lannister power and creating a new lannister era.

[Lykos]

Green eyes flecked with gold and the terrible to behold threat of a smile are actually quite sufficient for me.

I know that Littlefinger found "a place" for Jeyne Pool :bawl: :tantrum: :crying: , but he could have arranged the handing over via raven. Someone must run his brothels. :dunno:

To take a break from looking directly onto all this evil and to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the household tales, I dug up one of Ragnorak´s great summaries from the last thread.

<snip>

Possibly one of the most loaded lines in the series.

There's even a little irony given Petyr's estate aside from the more obvious commentary about lords not being any threat. There is also the unseen dagger/ wolf in sheep's clothing aspect. Off topic, but it makes Sansa's lamb's wool garb during Snow Winterfell that much more ominous for him. Does he consider Tyrion to be a shepherd or a sheep? Does he consider framing Tyrion for the murder here or is LF the one who gives Mandon Moore the instructions to eliminate Tyrion?

<snip>

This is of course a biblical reference, but there are two tales connected to it, too.

1. The Wolf and the Seven Young Kids The wolf tries to fool the kids by adopting a high, sweet voice. The kids however recognise that it´s not their mother goat, because they see his black feet, so he powders them white with flour.

   "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." The eunuch rubbed his powdered hands together. "May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?"

   Clash, Tyrion.
   
   
2. LittleRed Riding Hood Who was Littlefinger sent to treat with again? And who is including Sansa in her secret schemes? ^_^ Is it another wolf or grandma?
   

spelling.

[Lummel]

Although in this case the fierce animal is the father!

OK when I post the next chapter, which I suppose will be at some point tomorrow, I will be moving on to Tyrion IV. The marriage of Sansa and Tyrion takes place in Sansa III before Tyrion IV.

If any intrepid reader wants to write on Sansa III ASOS you are very welcome and have my blessing and benediction if you do so! Some of you may well want to sneak a quick look at it or refresh your memory about it in any case, I can imagine that some people might think it has some relevance to our discussion of Tyrion ;)

ETA the Grimm Brothers...there's a series of short radio programmes on the BBC about the stories they collected - worth a listen if you are interested in all things Grimm.

[Ragnorak]

I will endeavor to read the Lannister tea leaves through Sansa's tear filled eyes..

I'll try and post something on Sansa III later tonight.

[Lummel]

Surely sir you have done enough with your regular contributions to keep this thread going, I meant this rather as a call to those who wanted to join in but who aren't one of us hosting the thread...not that I can stop you! :)

[Ragnorak]

And so it was that her lord husband cloaked her in the colors of House Lannister whilst standing on the back of a fool

Sansa III (SOS) the Lannister Prism

This is such an internal chapter for Sansa and it is odd to read it with an external focus.

Sansa is beautiful. From the reactions of Cersei, the maids, the two Kingsguard and her own thrill at the new gown we can infer that she is arguably one of the loveliest things currently gracing Westeros. Even Joffrey-I-didn't-suffer-nearly-enough-when-I-died's abuse shows how stunning she must look. Her contrast with Tyrion must have been a sight to behold.

Cersei

For the Lannister siblings Sansa's marriage takes place between Tyrion's past marriage and Cersei's future one. This is the moment that brings their Father's command and seduction from last chapter to an emotional reality.

They were all looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off. It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. “I’ll go.”

Cersei smiled. “I knew you would.”

I think I originally read this as Cersei confident in her power over Sansa, but I think this is Cersei identifying with Sansa given her own undesirable future marriage. The reference to Tyrion's kindness is noteworthy as well.

Cersei herself arrived with the seamstress, and watched as they dressed Sansa in her new clothes.

Queen Cersei studied her critically. “A few gems, I think. The moonstones Joffrey gave her.”

“Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle.”

Sansa did not understand. Did she mean Willas? How could she know?

Cersei is almost never close to kind unless for public show and hardly ever complimentary of another woman's beauty. I think the specifying Joffery's gift of moonstones (which she in all probability picked out for Joffrey) is a sign that she still wishes Sansa were to wed her son. I also think Cersei is torn here between the memory of her last marriage and the dread of her next one. It would be hard for any married woman to behold the song loving Sansa here and not recall her own hopes, dreams, and reality of her own marriage. Cersei probably planned this marriage as well. Tywin seems to think her well suited for the task. The Willas reference is ironic. Here is Sansa wishing to marry Willas while Cersei is dreading the very same.

Her options to Sansa also strike me as a projection of her own thought process with regards to Tywin's orders.

“I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He’s a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall.”

“You can’t make me.”

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.”

Sansa goes willingly to the Sept and encounters Joffrey before Tyrion.

The Ceremony

“I’m your father today,” he announced.

“You’re not,” she flared. “You’ll never be.”

His face darkened. “I am. I’m your father, and I can marry you to whoever I like. To anyone. You’ll marry the pig boy if I say so, and bed down with him in the sty.” His green eyes glittered with amusement. “Or maybe I should give you to Ilyn Payne, would you like him better?”

Her heart lurched. “Please, Your Grace,” she begged. “If you ever loved me even a little bit, don’t make me marry your—”

“—uncle?” Tyrion Lannister stepped through the doors of the sept. “Your Grace,” he said to Joffrey. “Grant me a moment alone with Lady Sansa, if you would be so kind?”

The king was about to refuse, but his mother gave him a sharp look. They drew off a few feet.

As a side note, Joffrey playing her father is a bit reminiscent of Littlefinger doing the same and just noticing the parallel makes my skin crawl. The hostility between Tyrion and Cersei has not abated in the slightest and we have never seen Cersei reign in Joffrey in any way that I can recall prior to this. Again, I think this is Cersei identifying with Sansa and this is what makes her reign in Joffrey. This moment that Cersei effectively grants Tyrion shows how Sansa occupies this odd place between their Tywin mandated weddings.

Tyrion apologizes for the timing and offers her the option of marrying Lancel instead.

“My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished.” He waddled closer. “You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.”

“You are kind, my lord,” she said, defeated. “I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.”

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. “I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa,” he said softly, “but neither am I Joffrey.”

“No,” she said. “You were kind to me. I remember.”

Tyrion offered her a thick, blunt-fingered hand. “Come, then. Let us do our duty.”

We know Sansa declines because one Lannister is as dreadful as the next. I can't help but wonder how Tyrion takes this though. Lancel is a poor copy of Jaime but he is handsome by all accounts. Here he is accepted over a more comely man and I can't imagine that he doesn't read more into this than Sansa ever intended to communicate. The "us" and "our" are also interesting because Tyrion seems to view this as a situation he and Sansa are in together against his own family. He has a very "us and them" attitude this whole chapter and he has allied himself with Sansa in his own mind.

She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?

Someone behind them tittered. The queen, she thought, but it didn’t matter. They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest. “Dontos, down on your hands and knees,” the king commanded. “My uncle needs a boost to climb his bride.”

When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level. “With this kiss I pledge my love, and take you for my lord and husband.”

“My lord, should we lead the dance?”

His mouth twisted. “I think we have already given them sufficient amusement for one day, don’t you?”

Cersei laughs first. It could be her hatred for Tyrion outweighs her sympathy for Sansa or she could simply be admiring, even envious, of Sansa's little protesting stand. I suppose they aren't exclusive. Tyrion either forgives Sansa because she kneels afterwards or (as I suspect) never held it against her in the first place. The way he refuses to dance shows he still feels in this with Sansa against everyone else.

Here is another bit of What was Tywin thinking?

None of the Tyrells are here, she realized suddenly. But there were other witnesses aplenty; the eunuch Varys, Ser Addam Marbrand, Lord Philip Foote, Ser Bronn, Jalabhar Xho, a dozen others. Lord Gyles was coughing, Lady Ermesande was at the breast, and Lady Tanda’s pregnant daughter was sobbing for no apparent reason.

The lack of Tyrells at the ceremony is a dead giveaway to the Tyrells that the Lannisters claim jumped Sansa. They could easily have been invited with complete feigned ignorance. This is a power play with intent to communicate a message to the Tyrells. If they couldn't refuse a Sansa visit without risking the alienation of Highgarden how do they think this is going to go over? A Lannister only family ceremony would be one thing but the whole court but the Tyrells? I can hardly imagine they boycotted as some protest and pointlessly gave away their scheme with Joffrey's impending murder in the works.

The Feast

In her dreams they had all been smiling. Not even my husband is smiling.

Tyrion is clearly unhappy. His deal with the devil already tastes sour. But why? The line gives no indication, but I suspect from later comments it is all about Tysha and in fact not far off from Sansa's own internal disappointment..

Ser Kevan Lannister begged the honor of Lady Janna Fossoway, Lord Tyrell’s sister.

Cersei Lannister partnered first Lord Redwyne, then Lord Rowan, and finally her own father, who danced with smooth unsmiling grace.

Sansa sat with her hands in her lap, watching how the queen moved and laughed and tossed her blonde curls. She charms them all, she thought dully. How I hate her.

Kevan and Cersei dance with the Tyrells but not Tywin. He only dances with Cersei and can't even manage to smile while doing it. It may be me, but I just can't imagine a father not smiling when he dances with his only little girl-- especially one that looks so much like her mother that you loved. Maybe Joffrey's behavior is reminding him of his own wedding. His lack of dancing with Tyrells or anyone else but Cersei at this wedding is a huge contrast to the way he worked the political room last chapter. I read this as very telling regarding Tywin.

Two other things stood out during the feast.

“A king can have other women. Whores. My father did. One of the Aegons did too. The third one, or the fourth. He had lots of whores and lots of bastards.” As they whirled to the music, Joff gave her a moist kiss. “My uncle will bring you to my bed whenever I command it.”

Sansa shook her head. “He won’t.”

“He will, or I’ll have his head. That King Aegon, he had any woman he wanted, whether they were married or no.”

This bit ties in well with Tyrion's gift to Joffrey later. Of course in short order Tyrion will prove Sansa right.

“Lady Sansa.” Ser Garlan Tyrell stood beside the dais. “Would you honor me? If your lord consents?”

The Imp’s mismatched eyes narrowed. “My lady can dance with whomever she pleases.”

Smiling, she let the music take her, losing herself in the steps, in the sound of flute and pipes and harp, in the rhythm of the drum… and from time to time in Ser Garlan’s arms, when the dance brought them together. “My lady wife is most concerned for you,” he said quietly, one such time.

“Lady Leonette is too sweet. Tell her I am well.”

“A bride at her wedding should be more than well.” His voice was not unkind. “You seemed close to tears.”

“Tears of joy, ser.”

“Your eyes give the lie to your tongue.” Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. “My lady, I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly… but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think.”

I had wondered if losing herself in Garlan's arms had triggered anything negative in Tyrion or even Sansa dancing without him. I don't see it but maybe others do. Tyrion seems bothered from the beginning by both Tysha and his Father's assigned task. Garlan seems purely kind here. His tale of his older brother protecting him even adds to the effect. We also have him praising Tyrion to Sansa in more or less private. As a contrast the Tyrell women scorn her. Is Garlan kind? Is he an emissary from the QoT to keep the Tyrell door open while they feign defeat to the Lannisters who telegraphed their knowledge of the plot?

The Not a Bedding

Let’s get the clothes off her, and have a look at what the she-wolf’s got to give my uncle!” Other men took up the cry, loudly.

Her dwarf husband lifted his eyes slowly from his wine cup. “I’ll have no bedding.”

Joffrey seized Sansa’s arm. “You will if I command it.”

The Imp slammed his dagger down in the table, where it stood quivering. “Then you’ll service your own bride with a wooden prick. I’ll geld you, I swear it.”

When we talked about Tyrion not dealing with the devil and just saying "No" or someone calling out Tywin on Rhaegar's children I think in our hearts we wanted something very much like this. I had forgotten he has a dagger in his hand while delivering the threat and that really changes things quite a bit. Excuse me while I relish this a moment. It was probably the only bright spot in this chapter when I first read it.

Queen Cersei turned to her father. “Did you hear him?”

Lord Tywin rose from his seat. “I believe we can dispense with the bedding. Tyrion, I am certain you did not mean to threaten the king’s royal person.”

Sansa saw a spasm of rage pass across her husband’s face. “I misspoke,” he said. “It was a bad jape, sire.”

“I did, Your Grace,” said Tyrion, “but only because I envied your royal manhood. Mine own is so small and stunted.” His face twisted into a leer. “And if you take my tongue, you will leave me no way at all to pleasure this sweet wife you gave me.”

Laughter burst from the lips of Ser Osmund Kettleblack. Someone else sniggered. But Joff did not laugh, nor Lord Tywin. “Your Grace,” he said, “my son is drunk, you can see that.”

“I am,” the Imp confessed, “but not so drunk that I cannot attend to my own bedding.” He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. “Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”

This must have brought back the Tommen threats to Cersei's mind. Tywin reacts after Cersei speaks and I can't help but wonder if he's trying to prevent a Lannister family meltdown. Based on my theory, Tywin is the only one looking forward to the bedding more than Joffrey so I wonder why he acquiesces. He dispenses with the bedding and then asks Tyrion to amend his offense. Is this part of the weird sway Tyrion seems to hold over Tywin? Is Tywin recalling Aerys and Joanna at his own wedding? Is it just PR damage control? He calls Tyrion "my son" while addressing Joffrey and not "your uncle." My read is that he is reminding Joffrey of Tyrion's relationship to him under the misguided notion that Joffrey got the memo (or could read if he did,) that Tywin is de facto King. We also see a return to Tyrion's type of wit that got him out of the Eryrie and was also frequently directed at Tywin. What do the Tyrells and the rest of the court make of this? How concerned was Tywin with Joffrey's behavior and the potential impact on the Tyrell alliance. Realistically, if a bedding took place I could see the Tyrells calling off the wedding because Joffrey's behavior would have made them the prime assassination suspects regardless of how well they framed anyone else (there's sarcasm in there but I'm not sure how much.)

A great deal has happened since the start of the chapter but we've had precious few hints as to what Tyrion might be thinking about. Despite his humiliation during the ceremony, his wife dancing and losing herself in another taller man's arms, and committing a capital offense moments before his first thoughts are of Tysha.

“Would you have me undress, my lord?”

“Tyrion.” He cocked his head. “My name is Tyrion, Sansa.”

“Tyrion. My lord. Should I take off my gown, or do you want to undress me?” She took another swallow of wine.

The imp turned away from her. “The first time I wed, there was us and a drunken septon, and some pigs to bear witness. We ate one of our witnesses at our wedding feast. Tysha fed me crackling and I licked the grease off her fingers, and we were laughing when we fell into bed.”

“You were wed before? I… I had forgotten.”

“You did not forget. You never knew.”

“Who was she, my lord?” Sansa was curious despite herself.

“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet. Ours was a very short marriage… as befits a very short man, I suppose.”

He's probably been dwelling on Tysha since the end of last chapter. I suspect Joffrey's treatment of Sansa reminded him of his last experience with Tysha and a bedding has a certain public similarity. Sansa's gown is also cloth-of-silver and silvery satin. We have a symbolic act of protecting his wife from being molested at Lannister hands. It is also clear Tyrion has been comparing this wedding and bedding to his first.

We've seen Tyrion talk about accepting hard truths but he has never done so with anything remotely Tysha related. This is the first time he comes close.

I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa

You did not forget. You never knew.

“Me as well. I know I am ugly—”

Don’t lie, Sansa. I am malformed, scarred, and small

That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.”

Additionally, his manner, his threat to Joffrey, his recollections of that first marriage, and House Silverfist seem to indicate he's taking a far more honest look at Tysha and his role than he ever has before. Unlike with Shae where he didn't want that much truth he seems to be asking Sansa for it. He wants the honesty not the courtesy-- which he'll get in the end with "Never" but does in fact unhappily accept.

One last time, with no trace of love or tenderness remaining. “So you will remember her as she truly is,” he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

“And my clothing?”

“That too.” He waved his wine cup at her. “My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage.”

“A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?”

“Yes.”

“Me as well.

When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. “I understand,” he said bitterly. “Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty.”

“My lady,” Tyrion said, “you are lovely, make no mistake, but… I cannot do this. My father be damned. We will wait. The turn of a moon, a year, a season, however long it takes. Until you have come to know me better, and perhaps to trust me a little.”

We have a replay of Tysha. Tywin commanded Tyrion. He didn't want to but his desire betrayed him so he did as he was bid. Here, despite desire and Tywin's command, he refuses. This is arguably the turning point for Tyrion's character and probably one of the few choices-- if not the only choice-- in his life that he can look back on to pull him out of the darkness he eventually finds himself in.

Final Thought

“On my honor as a Lannister,” the Imp said, “I will not touch you until you want me to.”

Despite the density of the theme of honor this phrasing of "On my honor as a <insert House>" only comes up on about three other occasions and they all center around Cat with a Lannister connection.

There's Cat capturing Tyrion. Cat and Jaime before she frees him. And Cat herself in what strikes me as the most important connection to this scene

“You’re making a sad mistake, Lady Stark. I had no part in any attack on your son. On my honor—”

“Lannister honor,” was all she said.

“My word?” The hoofbeats were louder now. Tyrion grinned crookedly. “Oh, that you have, my lady… on my honor as a Lannister.”

For a moment he thought she would spit at him, but instead she snapped, “Arm them,” and as quick as that she was pulling away.

“The man who came to slit Bran’s throat gave me these scars. You swear you had no part in sending him?”

“On my honor as a Lannister.”

“Your honor as a Lannister is worth less than this.” She kicked over the waste pail.

Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates—”

“—someone needs to close them again.” Jaime stood. “I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty—”

but Catelyn did not care. They could do as they wished with her; imprison her, rape her, kill her, it made no matter. She had lived too long, and Ned was waiting. It was Robb she feared for. “On my honor as a Tully,” she told Lord Walder, “on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy’s life for Robb’s. A son for a son.” Her hand shook so badly she was ringing Jinglebell’s head.

[the Scorpion Knight]

"the honour of a lannister" reminds me of his meeting jorah's comment on that matter

(the best proof no matter what you do you can't get the north out of an northerner )

[Winter's Knight]

“On my honor as a Lannister,” the Imp said, “I will not touch you until you want me to.”

yrion glanced toward Sansa, and felt a stab of pity as he said, “Until such time as he frees my brother Jaime, unharmed, they shall remain here as hostages. How well they are treated depends on him.”

“My lady, has no one told you? Lannisters lie.”

[Lykos]

Thank you Ragnorak.

Sansa´s marriage to Tyrion now, after your excellent posts about Tywin setting Sansa up to be the embodyment of the "Rains of Castamere", reminds me of Iphigenia´s "marriage" to Achilles.

There are many adaptations of this story and I probably have mixed them all up in my head.

The main and probably only similarity is that they both expected to be married to a good and powerfull man, just to find out that they are to be sacrificed for a part in a quest for retribution and power.

The omission of the bedding will lead to rumors, in the coming chapters and I think it´s interesting how Tyrion reacts to them.

I agree that he´s reminded of Tysha´s rape because of the prospect of a public bedding, I liked that Tyrion stood up to the "Mad King" as well. Tyrion had done that before, but now his father is there and taking over - from both of them.

Would Tywin have prevented further humiliation for Sansa and Tyrion, if he hadn´t made a similar experience at his own bedding, I ask myself?

And why does Tyrion comply so readily, by giving the audience some bawdy playacting. Is it to keep his face or to get on with this farce as quick and smooth as possible? Probably both.

"Lady Tysha." His mouth twisted. "Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet.

A bloody sheet, the story of Tysha grows more gruesome with every retelling, as if to leave not the slightest bit of doubt of Tyrion´s guilt. "Made me go last" - "My cock betrayed me" - "A bloody sheet".

Sorry, but I´m still outraged by this excuse that Martin had Tyrion make. "My cock betrayed me". What does that mean?

Did his cock make him join a bloody rape of the woman he claimed to have loved, that he believed was paid by his brother to give him her maidenhead? Does this meanTyrion rejects consciously every blame, except for his erection?

His erection is my least problem, excitement, emotional upheaval and fear can lead to one, but it would be denial of his true guilt if that´s the only fault he´s admitting to.

He feared the consequences, He didn´t want to be sent to the Wall or be killed in a hunting accident, not his cock.

"I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I've proven I'm no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere.

I could be ... I could be good to you." ...

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire.

Tyrion is loyal to those who he believes are loyal to him and he is always suspicious, especially of women. Tywin took care of that. He is a proven craven more so than the self proclaimed craven Sam. Yes, Tyrion is clever and learned. Use it Tyrion open your eyes and stop focussing on yourself. And after all that there is even kindness in him - somewhere. He could be good - , but he isn´t. And he can only be generous, with gold, because he wasn´t good. Because he let his cock betray him.

Of course Sansa doesn´t desire a craven full of self-pity.

Now I don´t want to say that Tyrion is always like that, and most other men are like Tyrion from time to time, but Tyrion is like that most of the time. Self-focussed, insecure and plagued with just guilt.

I forgot what else I wanted to say. Rant over.

[Woman of War]

I think this Sansa chapter is one of the best written in the books. And you have made a wonderful post about it, Ragnorak.

I do not have very much to add, only one aspect:

Tyrion is sometimes criticized by readers for making, or better said, not preventing Sansa to undress. I think being naked has a very specific necessary function in describing the psychological situation both characters are in here.

The author decided that he wanted them both nude (sorry, I am not a native speaker and I have never fully understood the difference between "nude" and " naked". I know that at US American beaches "nudity" is forbidden, though I guess nudity is the more metaphorical term, as in art......but then, why the beaches? :) ). So in this case I use the term nude.

Being nude here symbolizes the ultimate vulnerability, being at the mercy of the eyes and possibly touches of the other, being scrutinized in all one's aspects, body and soul. Sansa as the possible victim of very physical violence, Tyrion in all his ugliness, being malformed, and presenting his deepest shame: the erection showing desire in a situation where giving in to that desire would be violence, would mean to repeat the Tysha disaster again.

Note that both characters undress at their own initiative, Martin explicitely decides against something like an attempt of active seduction: Tyrion trying to get Sansa "in the mood" by carefully undressing, kissing and touching her in the process, seduction mode à la Jude Law in A.I. I guess this would have gone disastrously wrong anyways, for many reasons, an important one is that a twelve year old is too young to respond even if she is physically already very adult.

But Tyrion does not even try this approach: "you might as well (undress)." Definitely non erotic.

What he tries is to convince Sansa with words. He is not embellishing anything, the ugly and the positive aspects of him are quite accurately described. "I could be good to you" is a very clumsy effort to present himself as her ally, he is trying to establish a "we". His remarks about Tysha though seem not meant to give any informations to Sansa but are only said to himself, spoken only aloud because we readers are in Sansa's POV.

The only means of seduction Tyrion knows about are words. Seduction? ? He is making more a peace parley here, presenting himself as sale offer with few assets, half broken with a lot of flaws but still somewhat working. And the assets, wits and "be good to you", is nothing Sansa is interested in at the moment. He knows that as husband material he is close to garbage, especially compared to what Sansa used to dream of.

Actually Tyrion probably has no idea how seduction of a very young inexperienced girl might work. Tysha apparently took the initiative at least as much as Tyrion, he thinks of her as professional anyways, and the other women Tyrion had sex with were prostitutes who were paid to be convinced.

So undressing here is for Tyrion not so much about violating Sansa's privacy space as violating his own, mercilessly showing himself in all his ugliness, not only his physical but his moral ugliness: feeling desire at seeing a victim: " it frightens me too", close to repeating the in his own opinion worst crime. (Tyrion himself never granted himself the mitigating circumstance that he was a sexually abused child himself, this is a modern thought in a democratic law system)

If we assume that the norms and values there are not so different from European medieval times nudity has a very different impact in social situations. People are far more used to seeing each other naked, when washing and sleeping in one room, sharing one bed with a stranger was often necessary and even lesser nobility sometimes had one big bed for the whole family. European castles are cold!!! So human bodies in all their aspects were normally not alien to children. But maybe Sansa grew up in extra protected circumstances and, unlike Arya, she did not actively go out to seek new experiences, accidentally getting to see more of common people.

I know I will get a lot of hateposts for what I am going to write now. But it is Sansa herself who, once having said the vows that bind her to Tyrion, is willing to be the good wife. Sansa, the CHILD!, is trying to do exactly what is expected of her. She is trying to be brave not in defying Tyrion's expectations but she takes pride from being brave enough to confront herself with and to fulfill the role of the wife she now is. Sansa has been brought up to fulfill others' expectations and it is part of her self esteem to be good at this. And so she perceives herself as strong when she does what she sees as her duty: endure the sex with Tyrion. The child Sansa wants to do "what is expected of her", the child wants to emulate the adult, she desperately tries to act like she thinks a strong grownup woman would and should and is ashamed that she does not quite know how. "Should she open her legs for him?", so heart wrenching. Sansa is honestly convinced that Tyrion now has every right to fuck her and she would never see this as rape. The whole procedure is more like an especially painful visit to the dentist, necessary but hopefully soon over. We as modern readers of course know that sex with a child is always rape, no matter if this child agrees, and that a person can be raped even if he or she does not see the act as rape.

This is so miserable and heartbreaking not because she fears to be raped but because she precisely not expects to be raped, she expects herself to fulifll her duty by going along. Sansa has no intention at all to defy Tyrion, she even tries to do her best to make the "marital duty" happen, only her body language betrays her: the terrified child is simply not able the play the willing bride, she trembles and shivers so that, contrary to her own intentions, her carefully kept courtesy mask slips and her revulsion gets obvious. No dutiful wife here.

Only when Tyrion, seeing her misery and the child in an adult body, offers her the way out by wanting to postpone consummation she finds the courage to be the little girl Sansa again, not the bride doing her duty, and to tell him what she really (not) wants.

No, Sansa is her own enemy here, like so many women who have no other perspective than going along with their forced or arranged marriages. She is not only a victim to direct patriarchial violence, she is a victim to patriarchial brainwashing and mind control in accepting her enemies' values as her own and willingly going along with them. Wanting to be a correct wife. This inner patriarchy by lifelong ideological imprinting has as much part in the abuse of women (and possibly men) as outright direct and obvious violence, twisting the victim into an accomplice to his or her own abuse. This kind of psychological abuse destroys a victim's self esteem before the body gets violated, the outmost degree of humiliation.

Sansa is non verbally communicating her horror to Tyrion not because she wants him to know her disgust but despite she tries to hide it and to be brave, fortunately betrayed by her own involuntary body language, her instinctive protector. And Tyrion is, through his Tysha experience, able to realize how he is being abused as means of destruction again, history repeated, only with a very different outcome.

[Lummel]

Although there is a contrast with Daenerys' marriage, at least for us readers, - another under age girl marrying a considerably older and more experienced man. The shame and the guilt are explicitly what Tyrion brings to the marriage bed.

[Lykos]

Woman of War,

I think I like the term naked better here, maybe Lummel can help. You´re right, Tyrion and Sansa are laid bare for each other to see without masks.

They see each other for what they really are at that moment, well I think Sansa sees more of Tyrion actually. Tyrion sees an innocent twelve year old beautiful girl and from that moment on only Tysha, I think. He makes some clumsy attempts at seducing her in order to meet his fathers expectations, but gives up quickly. Sansa sees a pitiful man, who gave her little reason to love him and (sorry) less to desire him.

Her "willingness" to fullfill her duty is part of her armour - "courtesy". It is part of a social contract of the society they live in. She is "good" and abides by it and therefore shames him into doing the "right" thing and break off his feeble attempts of seduction.

Yes words are his only means of seduction, his weapon against her armour.

My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind . . . and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge

Game, Tyrion II

While Tyrion is using his sword half heartedly, because he knows his cause is not just, Sansa is reenforcing her Armour by being "good" and dutyful. But she makes it clear with her bodylanguage that she does not give consent and she grows increasingly conscious in doing so. She finally even tells him that she thinks she might never be willing.

That Tyrion recognises that his doing is not right is a good thing. Tyrion even swears by his honour as a Lannister that he will not touch her against her will and I think that he means to keep this promise. But what Lannister Honour is worth is foreshadowed when Tyrion has to climb on the back of a fool to symbolically offer her his "Lannister protection" represented by the bride´s cloak.

I think we´ll take a close look at how true Tyrion´s intentions to keep this vow are, in the coming chapters.

How wrong this social contract with regard to the concept of obedience of the wife to her husband is, is a different matter, this is the only contract they have learned to live by. And they don´t even seem to have a civil code like the Sachsenspiegel ,that means social contracts and traditions are the only means of security.

The "Rape" has happened before the ceremony, basically by the King who is responsible for Sansa as a ward, but with the planning and help of all the rest of Tyrion´s family. A family Tyrion has decided to stay loyal to, we´ll have a close look at how that developes, too.

"You can't make me."

"Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same." The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. "Escort Lady Sansa to the sept," she told them. "Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly-,,

Sansa tried to run, but Cersei's handmaid caught her before she'd gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, "Do as you're told, sweetling, it won't be so bad.

Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren't they?"

Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave.

There might be some similar reasoning to Iphigenia. They had both little options.

Euripides’ character of Iphigenia holds many complex meanings that stem from her decision to willingly sacrifice herself. There are several possible reasons for Iphigenia’s decision. The first is that Iphigenia wants to please her father and protect the family name. Not only does Iphigenia want to please her father, but she also forgives him for making the decision to sacrifice her. The second reason is that Iphigenia sees this as a patriotic cause. Iphigenia realizes that if she dies, then the men can sail to Troy and win and protect their own women. If the men did not get to Troy to defeat the Trojans then all the Greek women would be raped and possibly killed. Thus, Iphigenia sees her death as saving hundreds of women. A third reason for Iphigenia’s choice could be a more selfish reason. Iphigenia wants to be remembered with honor through her self-sacrifice, unlike how Helen of Troy is viewed.

[brashcandy]

But Tyrion does not even try this approach: "you might as well (undress)." Definitely non erotic.

What he tries is to convince Sansa with words. He is not embellishing anything, the ugly and the positive aspects of him are quite accurately described. "I could be good to you" is a very clumsy effort to present himself as her ally, he is trying to establish a "we". His remarks about Tysha though seem not meant to give any informations to Sansa but are only said to himself, spoken only aloud because we readers are in Sansa's POV.

Not embellishing anything? Really now? So the Knight of Flowers in bed line was just Tyrion laying his cards on the table?

I know I will get a lot of hateposts for what I am going to write now. But it is Sansa herself who, once having said the vows that bind her to Tyrion, is willing to be the good wife. Sansa, the CHILD!, is trying to do exactly what is expected of her. She is trying to be brave not in defying Tyrion's expectations but she takes pride from being brave enough to confront herself with and to fulfill the role of the wife she now is. Sansa has been brought up to fulfill others' expectations and it is part of her self esteem to be good at this. And so she perceives herself as strong when she does what she sees as her duty: endure the sex with Tyrion. The child Sansa wants to do "what is expected of her", the child wants to emulate the adult, she desperately tries to act like she thinks a strong grownup woman would and should and is ashamed that she does not quite know how. "Should she open her legs for him?", so heart wrenching. Sansa is honestly convinced that Tyrion now has every right to fuck her and she would never see this as rape. The whole procedure is more like an especially painful visit to the dentist, necessary but hopefully soon over. We as modern readers of course know that sex with a child is always rape, no matter if this child agrees, and that a person can be raped even if he or she does not see the act as rape.

No. Sansa is not willing to be a "good wife". She's been threatened into doing her "duty" and feels as though she has no choice in the matter. Given that these events are related through her POV, we don't have to rely on guess work here. She's not "ashamed" that she doesn't know how to emulate a grown woman, but is frankly terrified about what will happen next. She doesn't think Tyrion has a right to fuck her, but she does know the consequences of going against the Lannister family. Just because Sansa doesn't vocalize this as rape, doesn't mean that she isn't aware and doesn't resent the violation of her body and her choices. She thinks:

This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?"

No, Sansa is her own enemy here, like so many women who have no other perspective than going along with their forced or arranged marriages. She is not only a victim to direct patriarchial violence, she is a victim to patriarchial brainwashing and mind control in accepting her enemies' values as her own and willingly going along with them. Wanting to be a correct wife. This inner patriarchy by lifelong ideological imprinting has as much part in the abuse of women (and possibly men) as outright direct and obvious violence, twisting the victim into an accomplice to his or her own abuse. This kind of psychological abuse destroys a victim's self esteem before the body gets violated, the outmost degree of humiliation.

At no point in this chapter or throughout her entire time with the Lannisters does Sansa accept their values. At no point. That she believed she had no way out until Tyrion gives her the option does not make her complicit in her own victimization as you seem to be at pains to suggest throughout this post. Let's remember how this freaking chapter started in the first place, with Sansa being threatened with bodily harm if she did not comply with what the Lannisters wanted. She has no reason to believe Tyrion will give a shit about her feelings or acknowledge what she wants. The patriarchal brainwashing example only applies when we see Sansa recalling Septa Mordane's "advice" that all men are beautiful and she recognizes to herself that this is a bunch of hogwash and makes the final rejection of him. While she remains fearful, she's managed to come to a very important realization on the legitimacy of her own feelings. What she only perceived before has now been clear before her eyes when she takes a good look at Tyrion's body - it's wrong, it's unfair, it's akin to godlike punishment. And a very important point to be made in understanding how their marriage plays out going forward is that Tyrion was not expecting this final rejection. As much as he defies his father's law in this scene, Sansa is the one who makes the true institutional progress.

[Lummel]

Woman of War,

I think I like the term naked better here, maybe Lummel can help.

Well I can try.

My little etymology dictionary says that Naked comes from the middle low german naket and old english nacod while Nude is a bare newcomer into the language arriving in the 19th century from the Latin Nudus. Personally I'd never say I am nude, or I was nude, but I will be naked seems quite natural. They were nude, they were naked...hmm I would go for naked unless I wanted to rhyme with lewd.

[A wilding]

Basically "naked" is just the simple fact of being without clothing, while "nude" implies eroticism.

[butterbumps!]

This is so miserable and heartbreaking not because she fears to be raped but because she precisely not expects to be raped, she expects herself to fulifll her duty by going along. Sansa has no intention at all to defy Tyrion, she even tries to do her best to make the "marital duty" happen, only her body language betrays her: the terrified child is simply not able the play the willing bride, she trembles and shivers so that, contrary to her own intentions, her carefully kept courtesy mask slips and her revulsion gets obvious. No dutiful wife here.

Only when Tyrion, seeing her misery and the child in an adult body, offers her the way out by wanting to postpone consummation she finds the courage to be the little girl Sansa again, not the bride doing her duty, and to tell him what she really (not) wants.

No, Sansa is her own enemy here, like so many women who have no other perspective than going along with their forced or arranged marriages. She is not only a victim to direct patriarchial violence, she is a victim to patriarchial brainwashing and mind control in accepting her enemies' values as her own and willingly going along with them. Wanting to be a correct wife. This inner patriarchy by lifelong ideological imprinting has as much part in the abuse of women (and possibly men) as outright direct and obvious violence, twisting the victim into an accomplice to his or her own abuse. This kind of psychological abuse destroys a victim's self esteem before the body gets violated, the outmost degree of humiliation.

Sansa is non verbally communicating her horror to Tyrion not because she wants him to know her disgust but despite she tries to hide it and to be brave, fortunately betrayed by her own involuntary body language, her instinctive protector. And Tyrion is, through his Tysha experience, able to realize how he is being abused as means of destruction again, history repeated, only with a very different outcome.

The bolded is where I strongly disagree. I think what's really important here are results and intention. Tyrion does not resist bedding Sansa because he wants her to be a little girl again. Tyrion doesn't bed her because her soft defiance makes him feel bad about himself. I think it's a case where the "good" outcome occurs, but his intent is not a noble one, exactly. It's sympathetic, in that Tyrion wants to be wanted, but I'm not so certain that empathy for Sansa's plight has much to do with it.

I also think that Sansa is more in control of her reactions than you're giving credit for-- I think she is being purposeful and taking as much of a stand as she can in this context. She effectively behaves in such a way that he can't take pleasure in her, which is precisely what leads him to not follow through with this. I think this is a continuation of Tyrion's reluctance in the previous chapter, in which his wanting to be wanted (or that want at least convincingly feigned) is what's important to him.

[Lykos]

So only erotic nakedness is forbidden on those beaches. We´re coming.