Iron Throne succession question... [maybe spoilers]

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So, is Littlefinger wrong about Harry the Heir being, indeed, the heir?

ETA: unless we're talking about the Iron Throne, in that case we have Aegon III.

No, that goes through somebody's daughter. Harry has a Lord Arryn for a great-grandfather (maybe I missed a generation). But Cersei is Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella's mother, not their daughter. The inheritance goes down the line of generations, never up.

[mcb]

No, that goes through somebody's daughter. Harry has a Lord Arryn for a great-grandfather (maybe I missed a generation). But Cersei is Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella's mother, not their daughter. The inheritance goes down the line of generations, never up.

OK, so that's what you meant.

Considering that the throne belongs to House Baratheon, which technically derived its claim partially from their blood relation to House Targaryen, it's a fun question which tree the succession follows, should Tommen and Myrcella die childless.

[Buckwheat]

OK, so that's what you meant.

Considering that the throne belongs to House Baratheon, which technically derived its claim partially from their blood relation to House Targaryen, it's a fun question which tree the succession follows, should Tommen and Myrcella die childless.

I think that in this case, another war is to be expected. I also think many small kingdoms would declare their independence again because there would be no faction which most of the lords would gather around.

[Bretwalda]

After Roberts Rebellion had resulted in the death of both King Aerys and Prince Rhaegar, Robert Baratheon still has three major questions to justify why he should sit on the Iron Throne other than brute force.

Q1 > How do you justify killing Prince Rhaegar's young children and upsurping Prince Viserys and Princess Daenerys from their rightful place in the succession ?

Overthrowing the Mad King can be justified by him being unfit to rule due the bizarre "Trial of Fire" of Rickard and Brandon Stark. Kings in feudal society are not absolute dictators and are supposed to respect their vassals (high lords in westeros) rights - in this case the basic right to a fair trial.

Killing Prince Rhaegar can be justified on the basis of the allegation of kidnapping a High Lords daughter (and as far as Robert is concerned rape and murder also) - we dont know the full story yet of R+L but thats how Robert and his supporters would sell it.

An alternative option to Robert sitting on the throne would be to have Viserys as King (or Aegon if he wasnt murdered) with a High Lord acting as Regent till the King reaches the age of 16. Possibly having a regency council of all the high lords (or their representatives) to prevent jealousy amongst the high lords and to check the Regents power also.

Q2 > If not the Targaryens on the Iron Throne then why must it be a Baratheon instead of another Great House ?

House Lannister were Kings in the West before the Targs and are the richest house in the seven kingdoms, descended from the Andals and loyal the the Faith of the Seven. Tywin Lannister was a successful Hand of the King for many years and knew how to rule the realm. King Tywin anyone ?

House Arryn were Kings of the Mountain and Vale and are the oldest surviving Andal house and followers of the Seven. King Jon ?

House Stark ruled the North (the largest part of the realm) as Kings of the North then Paramount Lords for 8000 years, this house is older than any other Great House but a problem might be they are descended from the First Men and follow the Old Gods and not the majority Andals and the Seven. King Eddard ?

House Martell only joined with Dorne by marriage 86 years ago and they still call themselves Prince/Princess. King Doran ?

All the above houses will have some claim to be more "Royal" than the Baratheons and might have staked a claim to be the new royal house.

Q3 > It was the Targaryens who united the Seven Kingdoms in the first place and held it together through their rule, why shouldn't the former kingdoms reclaim their former independence ?

This is the "We bent the knee to the dragons NOT the stags" argument.

Balon Greyjoy used this argument six years into Roberts reign with the first Greyjoy Rebellion and later when Joffrey became King.

Robb Stark also used this argument after Ned's execution to claim kingship over the North and the Riverlands.

If Balon Greyjoy had won his first war of independence then its probable that Dorne would consider following the Iron Islands also.

These are how I think supporters of the new Baratheon order would have answered these questions.

A1 - King Aerys and his son were both tainted by insanity so allowing any offspring of them to rule the seven kingdom risked the same misrule happening again. All of Aerys bloodline should be excluded from the throne due to hereditary madness.

A2 - Robert Baratheon is a Great grandson of King Aegon V (The Unlikely aka Egg) though Princess Rhaelle (Aegon V's only daughter) and the next in line if you exclude the mad kings brood.

I am assuming here that the new Royal House Baratheon of King Landing will be confided exclusively to Baratheons decended from Rhaelle since that is the basis of their claim to the throne. Most distant cousins can call themselves Baratheon but are not "royal" baratheons and do not have any claim to the throne.

A3 - Robert is a direct trueborn decendant of Aegon the Conqueror and can claim all the rights and power he had and his successors.

The name of the ruling house may have changed and its sigil but this is not usual in medieval europe when the mainline of a royal dynasty might be upsurped by a junior/cadet branch of the family (for example the dispute between the Lancasters and York in the english war of the roses).

Based on the above the Baratheon Royal Line of Succession looks like this (just before Roberts death)

1 Prince Joffrey Baratheon of Kings Landing

2 Prince Tommen Baratheon of Kings Landing

3 Princess Myrcella Baratheon of Kings Landing

4 Lord Stannis Baratheon of Dragonstone

5 Shireen Baratheon of Dragonstone

6 Lord Renly Baratheon of Storms End

I am discounting more distant Baratheons because they are not decended from Princess Rhaelle (which is the basis of the Baratheon claim to the throne)

I am discounting Roberts bastards because of the failure of the Blackfyre rebellions established that bastards cannot inherit the royal throne (even if legitimised later). I doubt the baratheons will want to repeat this problem.

I am assuming male-preference cognatic primogeniture meaning daughters can inherit the throne but only after all brothers and their children in the line before them. Proof of this is when Stannis and Renly went to parly, Stannis offered to place Renly as his heir above his own daughter Shireen - he would not have made this offer if Shireen was not considered to be before Renly in the established succession.

After Roberts death however, the Baratheons split into three factions with neither recognising the claim of the other two.

Kings Landing faction (Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella) considered Stannis and Renly traitors (and probably Shireen also) and have no further claim to the throne.

Dragonstone faction (Stannis/Shireen) accused Cersei's children of being a result of incest and thus having no claim to succeed King Robert and it automatically falls to Stannis with Shireen as his heir.

Storms Ends faction (Renly) accused Cersei's children of being a result of incest and thus having no claim to succeed King Robert but he would make a better ruler than Stannis.

After the death of Renly only two rival factions remain.

King Tommen only has one heir - his sister Myrcella

Stannis only has one heir - his daughter Shireen.

If both Tommen and Myrcella should die without having further legitimate offspring the throne becomes wide open.

Same for the pretender Stannis and his heiress Shireen if both should die without offspring then the claim dies with them.

This has been a very long post (I know!) but I think thats how the Baratheon claim(s) to the throne would work based on what has been published and what seems most likely based on knowledge of how the seven kingdoms work.

Feel free to pick holes in any of my arguments!

[Nudu]

Cersei will never let Stannis sit the Iron Throne, and she'll crown Myrcella when Tommen dies. Cersei will crown Moonboy before she lets Stannis be crowned.

Because she fucks him for all we know.

[Nudu]

You may have a beyter claim but i have the larger army.

Whoever got the more power in king's landşng decides who will sit that throne. Probably High Septon in that case.

[Papa Stark]

It would go to Myrcella, after her it would go to Stannis or at least it should (I think, don't know if his rebellion would play a factor or something).

Just a question going off of the whole Gendry thing, can Gendry even read?

[Buckwheat]

<snip>

Welcome to the forum! Excellent first post, that was. :)

Just a question going off of the whole Gendry thing, can Gendry even read?

I do not think he does. I do not think we have met any lowborn who can read, with the exception of Davos and his sons that are raised into lordship.