Has Theon deserved all that happened to him for betraying Winterfell?

[Mulled Wino]

IMO Theon did not betray WF. He was a captive. He did however betray the Ironmen a Moat Cailin, but he had been messed up so bad by then, any one would have done what he did. No one should suffer what he has.

He did say he would treat with Balon, then joined with him. Per your logic, Jon didn't betray the wildlings.

[LuisDantas]

No one deserves what Theon had. And I doubt anyone had it worse, not even Sansa or Daenerys.

That said, and despite being rather fond of Theon, I must admit that there is no denying that he betrayed the Starks lock, stock and barrel. To a large extent it was their failing, but it was very much a betrayal.

I truly hope he recovers, and I can even see him becoming a far better person for that. Theon was a very flawed person, but largely due to others' faults, not his own. He was really served a very raw deal in life.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

He was really served a very raw deal in life.

Raw deal? Although he was taken hostage at a young age, he was raised in accordance with his rank and station. He never lacked or wanted for anything except his real family. As a prisoner, he could have been treated far worse. But Ned being the standup guy that he was, raised Theon almost as his own.

Its hard to say what I would have done in his situation. Having to choose between your biological family and an adoptive family can be pretty tough as was the case here. However he could have let Winterfell be. The attack was his plan alone. Even with Moat Cailin taken, the war was not lost for Robb until Winterfell was lost. The Bolton betrayal and the Red Wedding both followed that event. This falls squarely on Theon.

[LuisDantas]

Raw deal? Although he was taken hostage at a young age, he was raised in accordance with his rank and station.

Said rank being that of a political prisoner. Constantly reminded both of the virtue and joy of the Starks yet also reminded that he was not and would never be one of them. Not quite allowed to be proud of either his historical origins or his current not-really-family.

Being essentially duty-bound to have a permanent crisis of identity and floating from a self-image of proud Prince to that of a helpless prisoner did him no favors.

He never lacked or wanted for anything except his real family. As a prisoner, he could have been treated far worse. But Ned being the standup guy that he was, raised Theon almost as his own.

No denying that, but it is hardly a happy deal for him to be served.

Its hard to say what I would have done in his situation. Having to choose between your biological family and an adoptive family can be pretty tough as was the case here. However he could have let Winterfell be. The attack was his plan alone. Even with Moat Cailin taken, the war was not lost for Robb until Winterfell was lost. The Bolton betrayal and the Red Wedding both followed that event. This falls squarely on Theon.

Again, I don't challenge your statements, but I fear you may be underestimating the importance of the psychological damage that was inflicted on Theon.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I would argue that Theon's most formative years were with the Starks. From what I've read, Theon was never looked down upon or made to feel less than what he was. Robb trusted him completely. It was his biological family that mistreated him for their own ambitions.

Many times adoptive children make distinction and choose adoptive families over biological ones b/c of the love they received. Theon laments his actions and admits that Robb was his true brother.

[Phire]

I feel so bad for Theon. I know what he did, but what he also inadvertently did was prevent anyone from hunting down and killing Brand and Rickon for real.

I hope the "baddies" like Jaime and Theon redeem themselves. I hated them both, but now find me rooting for them.

Sadly though, I think Theon is beyond repair.

[Phire]

I would argue that Theon's most formative years were with the Starks. From what I've read, Theon was never looked down upon or made to feel less than what he was. Robb trusted him completely. It was his biological family that mistreated him for their own ambitions.

Many times adoptive children make distinction and choose adoptive families over biological ones b/c of the love they received. Theon laments his actions and admits that Robb was his true brother.

Another piece of GRRM brilliance.

Your foster family, which treated you as real family, vs, your real family. That's a conflict many would find difficult to reconcile.

[LuisDantas]

While I agree, Theon was still reminded time and again that he was no Stark.

Myself, I am looking forward to seeing him interacting with Jon. It is not impossible for that to happen in one of the last two books... and if anything, the two of them have so much more in common now.

[LeoSuperstar]

No.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

While I agree, Theon was still reminded time and again that he was no Stark.

Myself, I am looking forward to seeing him interacting with Jon. It is not impossible for that to happen in one of the last two books... and if anything, the two of them have so much more in common now.

Aside from the fact that Jon would likely kill Theon on the spot, being a bastard and a political prisoner are two different things. I doubt that they were on friendly terms before the betrayal. Jon's problems were mainly with Lady Stark.

[LuisDantas]

Aside from the fact that Jon would likely kill Theon on the spot,

Doubtful. Jon does not seem to be in a mood for needless killing.

being a bastard and a political prisoner are two different things. I doubt that they were on friendly terms before the betrayal.

So do I. Didn't the scene of the finding of the dire wolves hint that way, too?

Nevertheless, water under the bridge. Much like Arya and Sansa, they have the full potential to become BFF now.

Jon's problems were mainly with Lady Stark.

[Mammothsbane]

Doubtful. Jon does not seem to be in a mood for needless killing.

Jon still thinks Theon killed his two little brothers.. although all sins are forgiven on the Wall. Would be interesting to see. Theon would have to take the black though.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Doubtful. Jon does not seem to be in a mood for needless killing.

I don't think executing Theon for treason would be needless.

So do I. Didn't the scene of the finding of the dire wolves hint that way, too?

"I think not Greyjoy." I sensed some tension there as well.

Nevertheless, water under the bridge. Much like Arya and Sansa, they have the full potential to become BFF now.

I just don't think that taking Winterfall and costing Robb the war can be considered water under the bridge.

[LuisDantas]

I don't think executing Theon for treason would be needless.

From Theon's POVs, it could very well be a mercy killing. But my guess is that Jon is quite tired of so much death and will avoid killing without a very clear need now.

"I think not Greyjoy." I sensed some tension there as well.

I just don't think that taking Winterfall and costing Robb the war can be considered water under the bridge.

And you may well be right, but I have a hunch that it will be forgotten soon enough.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

A meeting b/t the two would a highlight of the books. I see Theon as GRRM's Gollum. There is still a role for him to do some good before he dies. The Wall could be a reward of sorts for him.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Interesting dispute.

The problem is who Theon would face in an eventual encounter: Jon Stark, rightful air of Winterfell, in this case I would fear for Theon's neck.

But if he faces Lord Commander Jon Snow then all his crimes, even against the starks shall be forgotten and theon might even, who would have guessed, take the black.

There is actually some Gollum duality in Theon's situation. Agreed.

[The Red Hand]

There is some kind of subtle justice in what Theon goes through. He alows himself to be goated into attrocities by Ramsay, and in exchange he becomes Ramsay's.......Reek. Still, I don't think he deserved half of what he got.

"Betraying" Robb; he presented the offer to his father, who promptly burnt the letter and back-handed Theon when he objected. His taking of Winterfell was kind of a dick move, but his alternative was reaving after all.

Maybe I'm just a soft touch but the worst of his crimes he was goaded into doing by Ramsay, the others are understandable IMO. And those of you who say that Theon is bound to be killed by some angry Northman, remember that he's basically been found guilty for crimes he didn't commit.

[Mr Hodor]

nobody deserves that treatment .. except maybe Ramsay or Mountain.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

There is some kind of subtle justice in what Theon goes through. He alows himself to be goated into attrocities by Ramsay, and in exchange he becomes Ramsay's.......Reek. Still, I don't think he deserved half of what he got.

"Betraying" Robb; he presented the offer to his father, who promptly burnt the letter and back-handed Theon when he objected. His taking of Winterfell was kind of a dick move, but his alternative was reaving after all.

Maybe I'm just a soft touch but the worst of his crimes he was goaded into doing by Ramsay, the others are understandable IMO. And those of you who say that Theon is bound to be killed by some angry Northman, remember that he's basically been found guilty for crimes he didn't commit.

Hmmm...being goaded into atrocities is no excuse for committing atrocities. Hitler's men tried this defense at the international tribunals. Committing treason that lead to the fall of the North and the gruesome deaths of the king and his mother sound like capital crimes to me. Simply reaving would have have left his hands relatively clean and serve as a repayment of the good treatment that the Starks gave him. I understand the psychological stress that Theon was under, but he made his bad and must now sleep in it. I hope he atones by helping Stannis win the battles and either get an honorable death or life on the Wall. As far as his treatment at the hands of Ramsay is concerned...so be it.

[The Red Hand]

Hmmm...being goaded into atrocities is no excuse for committing atrocities. Hitler's men tried this defense at the international tribunals. Committing treason that lead to the fall of the North and the gruesome deaths of the king and his mother sound like capital crimes to me. Simply reaving would have have left his hands relatively clean and serve as a repayment of the good treatment that the Starks gave him. I understand the psychological stress that Theon was under, but he made his bad and must now sleep in it. I hope he atones by helping Stannis win the battles and either get an honorable death or life on the Wall. As far as his treatment at the hands of Ramsay is concerned...so be it.

I'm not excusing the crimes that Theon did, I just think we should acknowledge the not-so-small part Ramsay played in them. And I don't think it was treason for Theon to follow his family as opposed to the people who held him hostage half his life, no matter how well he was treated or how good Ned's reasons were. And is it really better to rape and murder innocent people instead of taking a castle? I don't think so. Theon has paid for his mistakes IMO, though I understand why some poeple would think otherwise.