Heresy 32

[Melifeather]

The Arryn's founded the first of the Seven Kingdoms in the Vale, after the Starks in the North. The six southern kingdoms were formed by Andal invaders.

In A Clash of Kings, Theon POV page 921 paperback, Theon says to Ser Rodrik, "Robb will never look on Winterfell again," Theon promised. "He will break himself on Moat Cailin, as every southron army has done for ten thousand years..."

[Melifeather]

When they speak of the First Men as being the only people able to hold off the Andals at the Neck, they don't say that the First Men abandoned the six southern kingdoms.

[Black Crow]

I wonder what the original gods of the First Men were... Did it say in the books and I've missed it? They took up the Old Gods of the Children, but what did they believe previously? Also, Maester Luwin is telling all of this to Bran, and how no man will ever know how long the Children reigned and where they came from - and Bran may well be the one to find out about even that!

The original gods of the First Men are one of those complete mysteries, being nowhere alluded to. However while transcribing Maester Luwin's history above I was rather struck by the reference to the First Men being afraid of the faces in the trees and the wars beginning not because they were taking land and building holdfasts, but because they were cutting down and burning the faces. Then when the Andals turn up they do the same, only more effectively. Now of course Mel is doing it again.

It did make me wonder therefore if the First Men were originally followers of the Lord of Light before their conversion. That might explain the those "red" elements in the Nights Watch oath if it really does go back in history to before the Andal invasions.

[Black Crow]

The Arryn's founded the first of the Seven Kingdoms in the Vale, after the Starks in the North. The six southern kingdoms were formed by Andal invaders.

Nope, the Arryns defeated the existing King of the Vale and Mountains (of the Moon) to establish the Vale as the first of the Andal kingdoms, but it was already a kingdom of the First Men.

[Melifeather]

The Seven Kingdoms: The Kingdom of the North (Starks), the Kingdom of the Vale and Sky (Arryns), the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (Harren the Black, later the Greyjoys), the Kingdom of the Rock (Casterlys, then Lannisters), the Kingdom of the Reach (Gardener, then Tyrell), the Kingdom of the Stormlands (Storm Kings, then Baratheon), and Dorne.

[Black Crow]

When they speak of the First Men as being the only people able to hold off the Andals at the Neck, they don't say that the First Men abandoned the six southern kingdoms.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Luwin simply means that because the Neck was held against the Andals, the North remained a kingdom of the First Men under the Starks. As to Theon's remark about Moat Caillin being held against Southron armies for 10,000 years that's no doubt true, but he said Southron not Andal armies. as we've discussed before the consolidation of the original 100 kingdoms into Seven after the Long Night was undoubtedly a period of strife as big fish swallowed up little fish and the Kingdom of the North is no doubt as it is because the Starks conquered every north of the Neck and made bloody sure nobody can up from below the neck to challenge their hegemony.

[Melifeather]

Nope, the Arryns defeated the existing King of the Vale and Mountains (of the Moon) to establish the Vale as the first of the Andal kingdoms, but it was already a kingdom of the First Men.

Yes, the First Men were already all over Westeros in hundreds of kingdoms, but the narrowing down to the southern six was during the Andal invasion.

[Melifeather]

I'm not sure what you mean here. Luwin simply means that because the Neck was held against the Andals, the North remained a kingdom of the First Men under the Starks. As to Theon's remark about Moat Caillin being held against Southron armies for 10,000 years that's no doubt true, but he said Southron not Andal armies. as we've discussed before the consolidation of the original 100 kingdoms into Seven after the Long Night was undoubtedly a period of strife as big fish swallowed up little fish and the Kingdom of the North is no doubt as it is because the Starks conquered every north of the Neck and made bloody sure nobody can up from below the neck to challenge their hegemony.

There is not textural evidence to support this.

[Melifeather]

All references to the "Seven Kingdoms" include references to the originating families.

[Melifeather]

I wanted to interject that it could be a logical conclusion that the First Men were originally fire worshippers, because when they "gave the weirwood faces to the fire" the Children were horrified.

[Runaway Penguin]

Yes, the First Men were already all over Westeros in hundreds of kingdoms, but the narrowing down to the southern six was during the Andal invasion.

No. The textual evidence clearly says that Seven kingdoms came to be AFTER the Long Night, but BEFORE the Andals.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

The Andals were the first,

We have the sequence quite clear. Pact, small kingdoms, LN, birth of 7 kingdoms, many centuries later other men came, first the Andals.

EDIT: Tyrion for sure ain't a fire worshipper, yet he gave the enemies to the fire. It is generally easier and faster way how to destroy something wooden than chopping it to tiny bits ;)

[Black Crow]

The Seven Kingdoms: The Kingdom of the North (Starks), the Kingdom of the Vale and Sky (Arryns), the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers (Harren the Black, later the Greyjoys), the Kingdom of the Rock (Casterlys, then Lannisters), the Kingdom of the Reach (Gardener, then Tyrell), the Kingdom of the Stormlands (Storm Kings, then Baratheon), and Dorne.

Right:

The North we know about

The Vale and the Sky, as I've just cited was originally the Kingdom of the Vale and Mountains, only the Arryns never quite managed to take over the mountains on account of Shagga's forebears, so they settled for the sky instead.

The Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers was presumably Tristifer Mudd's Kingdom of the Rivers and Hills, although the Ironborn do seem to have complicated things, probably by taking advantage of Tristifer V not being half the man his father was.

[Melifeather]

No. The textual evidence clearly says that Seven kingdoms came to be AFTER the Long Night, but BEFORE the Andals.

We have the sequence quite clear. Pact, small kingdoms, LN, birth of 7 kingdoms, many centuries later other men came, first the Andals.

Maester Luwin was first stating how long the Pact lasted. We know that many Andal families have ancestors from the Age of Heroes, so while at first glance it appears this is a sequence, it is not. The Age of Heroes is before the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, so logically the Andals were here also before the birth of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Lummel]

Yes, the First Men were already all over Westeros in hundreds of kingdoms, but the narrowing down to the southern six was during the Andal invasion.

So long as the kingdoms of the First men held sway, the pact endured, all through the age of heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

The Andals were the first...in the end the six southeron kingdoms all fell before them...

from maester luwin's history lesson Bran VII AGOT

Seven kingdoms exist before the arrival of the Andals - at least that is the recorded tradition in Westeros.

[Runaway Penguin]

Maester Luwin was first stating how long the Pact lasted. We know that many Andal families have ancestors from the Age of Heroes, so while at first glance it appears this is a sequence, it is not. The Age of Heroes is before the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, so logically the Andals were here also before the birth of the Seven Kingdoms.

Erm... Many Andal families have First Men blood somewhere along the line. It's kinda like stating that Targs were there already thousands years ago, since the moren Targs have Dornish ancestors.

[Black Crow]

Maester Luwin was first stating how long the Pact lasted. We know that many Andal families have ancestors from the Age of Heroes, so while at first glance it appears this is a sequence, it is not. The Age of Heroes is before the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, so logically the Andals were here also before the birth of the Seven Kingdoms.

Yes and no. The Lannisters are Andals, but they married into a First Men family. To quote the appendix to AGoT "Through the female line they boast of descent from Lann the Clever, the legendary trickster of the Age of Heroes."

[Black Crow]

Changing the subject slightly its interesting to note that although originally Andals, the Lannisters prefer to trace their name through the female line to the First Men. A while ago in discussing Bloodraven we rather came to the conclusion that the FM female line, ie; the Blackwoods, is more important than his being the son of a Targaryen, just as we think that Jon's FM female line, ie; Lyanna Stark will be more important than his supposed Targaryen father.

[Melifeather]

In appendix for House Arryn says the Arryns are descended from the Kings of Mountain and Vale, one of the oldest and purest lines of Andal nobility.

Speaking of "female line", looking at the appendix for House Tyrell it states, Through the female line, they claim descent from Garth Greenhand, gardener king of the First Men, who wore a crown of vines and flowers and made the land bloom. When King Mern perished in the Field of Fire, his steward Harlen Tyrell surrendered Highgarden to Aegon and pledged fealty. Obviously there was a marriage here between Andal and First Men, though it isn't clear if they acquired the kingdom by killing the male heirs and marrying the female heir, or if two kingdoms were joined by the marriage.

Is Maester Luwin's comment the only text supporting that the seven kingdoms existed prior to the Andal invasion? The appendix descriptions aren't as clear as I would prefer.

[Little Wing]

Changing the subject slightly its interesting to note that although originally Andals, the Lannisters prefer to trace their name through the female line to the First Men. A while ago in discussing Bloodraven we rather came to the conclusion that the FM female line, ie; the Blackwoods, is more important than his being the son of a Targaryen, just as we think that Jon's FM female line, ie; Lyanna Stark will be more important than his supposed Targaryen father.

Female lines FTW! :commie:

[Black Crow]

Speaking of "female line", looking at the appendix for House Tyrell it states, Through the female line, they claim descent from Garth Greenhand, gardener king of the First Men, who wore a crown of vines and flowers and made the land bloom. When King Mern perished in the Field of Fire, his steward Harlen Tyrell surrendered Highgarden to Aegon and pledged fealty. Obviously there was a marriage here between Andal and First Men, though it isn't clear if they acquired the kingdom by killing the male heirs and marrying the female heir, or if two kingdoms were joined by the marriage.

Given GRRM's interest in the subject there may be a parallel here with the early history of Scotland.

In Roman times it was made up of a number of Celtic kingdoms, collectively known as the Picts (Latin: Picti - the painted lot). Then came the Scots from Ireland to establish the kingdom of Dalriada in the west and gradually expand, until, according to legend Fergis the First of his name conquered the Picts and so established the Kingdom of Scotland. Sorted.

Well actually no...

More recent scholarship points to Fergus getting there by marrying into the Pictish royal family and the significance of this was that the Pictish succession was matrilinear, ie; he married the Queen and the "kingdom" came too - rather like the Lannisters taking their name and lands from Miss Lann