The concept of "Starkness"

[Éadaoin]

Ok, I used to buy into this idea, but after thinking about it I don't think it makes much sense. So I'd like to see other people's views on it - I'm wondering if their views are like mine used to be or if they have a different take on it.

Some people seem to measure the Stark kids by their Starkness. Apparently Jon has a lot of it and Sansa has close to none. What I want to know is how one measures this Starkness? What qualities go into making one a "true Stark"? Do the other Houses have specific qualities that we would measure them by? Is the idea just BS? Or somewhere in between?

[Summer is Ending]

On the boards it's a way to discredit Sansa. In the books it consistently refers to icewater for blood, frozen features, keeping everything inside. The wolf doesn't rage at the deer. The Starks don't rage at their enemies. They watch with cold eyes until it's time to attack.

Then in contrast you have the wild wolf blood, though this is hardly described as a good thing.

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

[Éadaoin]

Are any of the Stark kids other than Arya said to have the wolf blood? I can't remember.

[ab aeterno]

On the boards it's a way to discredit Sansa. In the books it consistently refers to icewater for blood, frozen features, keeping everything inside. The wolf doesn't rage at the deer. The Starks don't rage at their enemies. They watch with cold eyes until it's time to attack.

Which brings you of course to the wolf blood, though this is hardly described as a good thing.

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

Except Brandon at the very least. And Robb, and so many others, as the quote implies. I think "Starkness" tends to refer to "Nedness," tbh.

[TheFlayedMan]

Surname.

[Dr. Pepper]

The idea is complete bullshit. There are, of course, some cultural and familial similarities in the Stark family simply because they are from the same region and grew up in the same house. It's impossible to measure "Starkness" because they are all different and identified in different ways. You have Lyanna the romantic, Brandon the wild child, Ned the quiet, Benjen the something. Rickard the ambitious, Torrhen who knelt. There is Bran the builder and then a father/son duo where one built ships and the other burned them. Even when you get to the current generation of Starks, the kids are all pretty different from one another. There really isn't a rubric to measure how much "Stark" a character is and it annoys me to no end when discussions devolve into that, especially when it's used to discredit Sansa.

[Barty]

Are any of the Stark kids other than Arya said to have the wolf blood? I can't remember.

Robb might have a touch - he was compared to Brandon by Cat once or twice.

[Frejac]

As for the idea of Starkness, I think that it's just a weird way of saying some kids take more to certain parts of their upbringing than others. I don't think that any of the kids in the story having a lot or too little Starkness really means anything.

To me, it pretty much just reflects how Jon idealized what Ned stood for because he had some type of psychological need to prove himself as being above the bastard stigma, and Sansa simply took more after her mother. Neither is good or bad, it's just how the characters are.

[DogLover]

How is "Starkness" defined? By appearance? By personality? Sansa is every bit as much Stark as her siblings. She, like Robb and Rickon, has her mother's physical attributes, but shares more of her father's introverted personality. Arya looks more like Ned, but tends to be more feisty and quick to react like Cateyln. No one has disputed Robb's Starkness even though he looks like a Tully, or Rickon's, even though we don't really know anything about him, other than he also looks more like a Tully. So, I call b.s.

ETA: Some people on this forum have argued that Sansa is not real Stark because she lost her wolf, which I also think is b.s.

[Barty]

If you want to know what the Starks are like in general then maybe Brandon Ice Eyes might give us a good idea - according to Ned most of the Kings of winter were like him - hard and cruel men for a hard and cruel land.

[Barty]

How is "Starkness" defined? By appearance? By personality? Sansa is every bit as much Stark as her siblings. She, like Robb and Rickon, has her mother's physical attributes, but shares more of her father's introverted personality. Arya looks more like Ned, but tends to be more feisty and quick to react like Cateyln. No one has disputed Robb's Starkness even though he looks like a Tully, or Rickon's, even though we don't really know anything about him, other than he also looks more like a Tully. So, I call b.s.

From what I read of Arya - she is nothing like Cat - not even close. She is described as having the wolf blood - not the fish blood.

[Éadaoin]

I think "Starkness" tends to refer to "Nedness," tbh.

This is weird to me because Arya's "Starkness" never seems doubted on these boards yet I think Sansa takes after Ned in several ways.

Just shows how people interpret the characters differently.

(Not saying Arya isn't a Stark, obviously. Like Dr. P, I don't agree with the concept.)

[protar]

I don't think there's a real measure of "Starkness". When people refer to Sansa having less Stark in her, it simply means she has more of an affinity for Cat's southern traditions than Ned's northern ones. But her personality is no more Starkish than say Bran and she's become more northern in her traditions lately.

[ab aeterno]

This is weird to me because Arya's "Starkness" never seems doubted on these boards yet I think Sansa takes after Ned in several ways.

Just shows how people interpret the characters differently.

(Not saying Arya isn't a Stark, obviously. Like Dr. P, I don't agree with the concept.)

I agree. I only meant that people seem to compare them to Ned rather than Starks in general, with the obvious exception of Arya who gets compared to Lyanna, largely because she is a girl.

[DogLover]

From what I read of Arya - she is nothing like Cat - not even close. She is described as having the wolf blood - not the fish blood.

I'm not denying Arya's wolf blood or her Starkness. I'm merely saying she also shares similarities with her mother.

[Éadaoin]

I'm not denying Arya's wolf blood or her Starkness. I'm merely saying she also shares similarities with her mother.

Yeah, I think Arya definitely shares traits with her mother. Not to mention she is Tully as well as Stark. Her very active personality always reminded me strongly not just of Lyanna, but of Cat.

[LordBloodraven]

I think it's because Sansa is closer to her mother and the southern culture than any of her siblings. Robb is approved by the Greatjon, Jon has "the Stark features" and reminisces everybody of his supposed father and has the same stern demeanor, Arya has the wolfsblood, Bran although he wanted to be a knight of the kingsguard is very close to northern culture and likes to talk about the First Men, Children and is a greenseer, Rickon is a kid. Sansa is more interested in southern culture, life of the court and stuff like that. Yet in some ways, she's very much like her father but is definitely closer to ther mother.

I don't know what starkness is per se but maybe it's just "Nedness" as ab aeterno says.

[Lion of Judah]

They do have qualities that set them apart from other houses in the 7 kingdoms, I don't agree with this notion that Sansa doesn't have "Stark" qualities though.

[Barty]

I'm not denying Arya's wolf blood or her Starkness. I'm merely saying she also shares similarities with her mother.

maybe she does - I never saw it, could be I was blinded by dislike of Cat while Arya is one of my favorite characters.

[Éadaoin]

maybe she does - I never saw it, could be I was blinded by dislike of Cat while Arya is one of my favorite characters.

Lol, I appreciate your honesty. I kind of wondered if this was the case with some people. No one is saying that they're exactly the same, just that they do seem to have notable similarities in some aspects. I think it can be easy to miss because Arya rebels against her gender role while Cat is more comfortable in hers.