Simple Solutions for Simple Folks

[Winter's Knight]

While reading the books, has it ever occurred to you that some characters seem to complicate things needlessly? Like there's too much conniving where it's simply unneeded-like Doran for instance. Even if one assumes that Arianne at twenty two cannot be trusted to keep a secret, it still seems unnecessary to keep her away from all branches of government.

Another one that hit me today was Tyrion and Shae in ACoK. He has secreted away in a manse which he reaches through a tunnel in Alaeyaya's brothel. Wouldn't it have been not only simpler but safer to just have her stay in the brothel? It solves so many problem at once-he is already visiting the place openly, Shae would no longer be isolated and if anything happened to him, she'd be reasonably safe and able to carry on earning in an environment that is-for Westeros-risk free.

What actions do you think were needlessly complicated and how would you simplify them?

[Foxhound]

How would it have been safer to keep Shae at the brothel? Instead of Alayaya getting grabbed by the Kettlebacks it would have been her.

[Fire Eater]

The purpose of keeping Shae was to avoid Cersei or Tywin finding her, and having her punished.

[LordBloodraven]

Stannis fleeing to Dragonstone and making his claim after Robert was dead. Why not waiit for Ned and tell him about what you know? Simpler and more effective. No need to hire sellsails and sellswords, since you would have the North, Riverlands, Vale and the Royal Fleet with you

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

@LordBloodraven

Stannis was no inclined to trust Ned. And he was at Dragonstone a long time BEFORE Robert's death.

Also, Doran Martell is overrated, deal with it everyone :drunk:

[Ghost of Groat]

I don't know...some of the plots do take on a touch of Rube Goldberg. But try telling a dog not to walk in three circles before laying down. The Zen parable that ends, "...the Scorpion replys, 'because it's my nature' ", comes to mind.

[LordBloodraven]

@LordBloodraven

Stannis was no inclined to trust Ned. And he was at Dragonstone a long time BEFORE Robert's death.

Also, Doran Martell is overrated, deal with it everyone :drunk:

He left after Jon Arryn's death. If he can trust Jon Arryn, he can certainly trust Ned Stark. Making the claim after Robert's death makes it opportunistic. And what he could reap with Ned at his sides was huge. But I think he felt slighted for not being appointed as Hand of the King and went to self-exile at Dragonstone

[Pod The Impaler]

While reading the books, has it ever occurred to you that some characters seem to complicate things needlessly?

Oh, by the old gods, yes !

Like there's too much conniving where it's simply unneeded-like Doran for instance. Even if one assumes that Arianne at twenty two cannot be trusted to keep a secret, it still seems unnecessary to keep her away from all branches of government.

Another one that hit me today was Tyrion and Shae in ACoK. He has secreted away in a manse which he reaches through a tunnel in Alaeyaya's brothel. Wouldn't it have been not only simpler but safer to just have her stay in the brothel? It solves so many problem at once-he is already visiting the place openly, Shae would no longer be isolated and if anything happened to him, she'd be reasonably safe and able to carry on earning in an environment that is-for Westeros-risk free.

What actions do you think were needlessly complicated and how would you simplify them?

Yes, Doran really over-schemed his scheme. As soon as Viserys was a man grown and Arianne a woman grown, he should have told at least one of them. Vis got his head melted because he (apparently) had no idea what awaited him from Dorne ! Doran could have had him secretly brought to wherever his wife was staying, brought Arianne there on some pretext (such as visiting her own mother - strange concept that this is). Then they marry in secret. (Note: I've sometimes wondered whether Viserys did know, and was so rude to Drogo as a result, because he thought he had some power of his own all sewn up.) In any case, Doran waited so long with the Vis and Dany options, he blew it. Too little, too late, and now he'll probably try a third time with "Aegon".

Cersei Lannister - if Robert was so uninterested in her children, could she not have had Jaime at least train the boys in sword-fighting? Sure, having Jaime be the "favourite uncle who's always around" could have caused suspicion, but I don't think anyone would think it strange if she got one of the greatest swordsmen in the realm to spend time training Joffrey how to fight. (My interpretation is that Cersei only used this as an excuse - that really her intention was to cut both Robert and Jaime out of her children's lives, so only she would influence them.)

Tyrion Lannister - as you say, it would not be so strange if Tyrion kept his whore in a whorehouse. I guess emotion got the better of him, as he broke his own safety rules with Shae.

Eddard Stark - Jon is going to join the Night's Watch, and he himself was headed to King's Landing, yet he couldn't take him aside before he left, ride out a league or so nobody's around, and then tell him who his mother really was ? WTF? No, Ned tell the boy.

For that matter, how many of Eddard's mistakes involve not telling people the things they need to know ? Cersei's kids are all from incest ? Maybe tell Stannis, Renly, Robert, or even Barristan, before you tell anyone else anything about your intentions.

Robert Baratheon - A dispute has arisen because your son has somehow gotten hit in the head and disarmed by your best friend's daughter, and bitten by a direwolf. Also this has something to do with some butcher's boy. Your wife is nagging you in one ear, your friend pleading with you in the other. You have you Master of Laws there. You have your super-honourable Lord Commander of the Kingsguard there. Can't decide ? Use them ! Send Cersei and Eddard away. Hear the witnesses out, each of them one by one and alone. Find the butcher's boy - alive - and hear his account of events too.

Instead Ozzy Osbourne King Robert decides: "So, the little shit Crown Prince got beat up by a wolf and bitten by a girl ? *hiccup* Ah, who cares - I'll cave in to Cersei's bitching and let her kill the butcher's boy and also the other girl's pet mammoth... *hiccup* Dog ? Wolf ? Septa ? Whatever it is. More wine !"

Balon Greyjoy - Long lost son arrives with a military alliance proposal that will fracture the Iron Throne's monopolistic hold on Westeros, and rip the lands out from under the rich Lannisters while they are powerless to stop you. A kingdom, a viable kingdom, is finally yours for the taking. Bonus: You just happened to have the entirety of the Iron Islands' military forces already prepared. What do you do ? Break the Iron Throne along with the King In The North ? Nope ! "Hell, with that, boy - my plan is to inadvertently help the Iron Throne win the war it is losing, and humiliate my only male heir to the point of suicide!"

Jorah Mormont - Should have just told Dany he'd been a spy right after Viserys died. Or at least after her dragon's were born. Or by Vaes Tolorro. Swearing his allegiance to her should have gone hand in hand with coming clean about why he was there at all.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

He left after Jon Arryn's death. If he can trust Jon Arryn, he can certainly trust Ned Stark. Making the claim after Robert's death makes it opportunistic. And what he could reap with Ned at his sides was huge. But I think he felt slighted for not being appointed as Hand of the King and went to self-exile at Dragonstone

He thought that he and his family were in danger.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The entire Martell scheme.

And yes Stannis made it ridiculously hard on himself by fleeing when Arryn died.

[Kittykatknits]

- Every single scheme to come out of Dorne ever. From the secret wedding plans to the crowning Mycrella plot to the sending of Sand Snakes off to KL. Doran just keeps throwing his kids at the remaining Targs, waiting for one of them to stick. What's he going to do when he runs out of Targs? The guy needs to start working on a Plan B. Maybe waiting another generation and hope Dany or Aegon has some kids? Or hope another secret Targ falls out of the sky?

- Cersei plot to assassinate Jon at the wall. I remember reading that the first time and thinking it would not end well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

- Every single scheme to come out of Dorne ever. From the secret wedding plans to the crowning Mycrella plot to the sending of Sand Snakes off to KL. Doran just keeps throwing his kids at the remaining Targs, waiting for one of them to stick. What's he going to do when he runs out of Targs? The guy needs to start working on a Plan B. Maybe waiting another generation and hope Dany or Aegon has some kids? Or hope another secret Targ falls out of the sky?

Honestly at this point, if Dorne spoke up one day and say, "Uh, we're declaring independence and leaving the united Seven Kingdoms, kthx bai," I don't think anyone would notice.

- Cersei plot to assassinate Jon at the wall. I remember reading that the first time and thinking it would not end well.

Oh yeah, that was a head-smacking.

[Kittykatknits]

Honestly at this point, I think that if Dorne spoke up one day and say, "Uh, we're declaring independence and leaving the united Seven Kingdoms, kthx bai," I don't think anyone would notice.

Dorne strikes me as a kingdom that is supposed to be very interesting, readers should be curious to know more about it. Yet, it feels like one giant afterthought. No, I don't think anyone would care at all. Or notice.

[jons nissa]

Honestly at this point, if Dorne spoke up one day and say, "Uh, we're declaring independence and leaving the united Seven Kingdoms, kthx bai," I don't think anyone would notice.

Dorne strikes me as a kingdom that is supposed to be very interesting, readers should be curious to know more about it. Yet, it feels like one giant afterthought. No, I don't think anyone would care at all. Or notice.

i agree. i, for one, would like to hear more so i am hoping that grrm gives them a bit more action and screen time. in fact, that may already be in play with the arrival of the sand snakes and alleras/sarella.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It seems like the Dornish (or OK, maybe just the Martells) have two settings: 0 and 11. Meaning, they're either incredibly slow, patient, introspective types (Doran, Quentyn, possibly Elia), or raging hot-heads (Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes).

[jons nissa]

It seems like the Dornish (or OK, maybe just the Martells) have two settings: 0 and 11. Meaning, they're either incredibly slow, patient, introspective types (Doran, Quentyn, possibly Elia), or raging hot-heads (Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes).

:lol:

so true!

[Kittykatknits]

It seems like the Dornish (or OK, maybe just the Martells) have two settings: 0 and 11. Meaning, they're either incredibly slow, patient, introspective types (Doran, Quentyn, possibly Elia), or raging hot-heads (Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes).

:lol:

so true!

Ironic thing is that both types seem to lead to death. For the Martells, when you play the game of thrones, you die or you die. There is no middle ground.

[jons nissa]

Ironic thing is that both types seem to lead to death. For the Martells, when you play the game of thrones, you die or you die. There is no middle ground.

if i may put words in her mouth, i think that's what apple was getting at. you're absolutely right. doran's patience was just a disaster waiting to happen and worked against whatever good ideas he had. and i'm sure at least one of the sand snakes will get a red smile or blade massage before all is said and done. i am curious to see what the end game could be for arianne. i wonder if there are any threads about this.....

[Kittykatknits]

if i may put words in her mouth, i think that's what apple was getting at. you're absolutely right. doran's patience was just a disaster waiting to happen and worked against whatever good ideas he had. and i'm sure at least one of the sand snakes will get a red smile or blade massage before all is said and done. i am curious to see what the end game could be for arianne. i wonder if there are any threads about this.....

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what she was getting at. I'm just unable to resist any opportunity to throw in some sarcasm.

I remember an Arianne appreciation thread from months ago but that's about it. I do think Arianne is likely to survive the series though.

[jons nissa]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what she was getting at. I'm just unable to resist any opportunity to throw in some sarcasm.

I remember an Arianne appreciation thread from months ago but that's about it. I do think Arianne is likely to survive the series though.

she was originally promised to viserys. does what i will call the family law (if the betrothed dies you marry the brother) mean she is promised to aegon since he's the only targaryen male around? and if so, doesn't that kind of doom her?

not too off topic since it could be a simple solution!