R'hllor, the Shadow Lands, the Great Other and the Lands of Always Winter

[Free Man]

First of all - the continents... Westeros is not North America... It is Britain... Look at the map, look at the iron islands, and it will all make sense. Essos is Europe - free cities, etc(Maybe Eurasia, as we have not seen all of it). with valyria and its south are something like the mediterranean (yes, valyria does resemle greece) Southyros is Africa, that river looks like the nile delta. The continent to the West of Westeros, where a Stark king took off to, that is America... And that Stark character is like that viking that found Vinland...

Regarding Danaerys - I have my doubts if she will ever reach westeros... and if she does, no way will she do that without passing the shadow... a prophecy is a prophecy :)

[GodOfYawns]

Many scholars believe the Minoan civilization, and its downfall with the eruption of Thera, was the real-world inspiration for the legends of Atlantis. FWIW.

Exactly. And I would venture to say that Valyria resembles the Roman Empire as much if not more than the Minoans. They too have a history of a catastrophic volcanic eruption in Vesuvius burying Pompeii in ash, and more importantly, in his discussion about the 9 wonders of man, Tyrion cites the Valyrian roads as one of them, much like the infrastructure of roads and aqueducts the Romans left across Europe. Also, the Valyrians were an expansionist culture that took down Old Ghis in its might, and established an empire that has never been rivaled, and it was built upon the backs of slaves. Their rivalry with Old Ghis reminds me of Rome's wars with Carthage, although, to be fair to the Hellenic model brought up above, the same could be said of the Greeks multiple victories over Persia. The current Free Cities definitely remind me of the constantly fueding city states of medieval Italy though. Braavos is definitely influenced by Vienna. They even run the banks that funded the dynastic wars of nearby countries, much as the banks of Milan and Florence funded the 100 Years War.

I'm on the fence as to whether it would be good to reveal Asshai. The world of ASOIAF is supposed to feel medieval to us, and that should include the feeling that other places are distant mysteries.

[Tyrion4President]

It's not impossible. It's far-fetched alright, and would be too long a journey but it's possible they are connected. Could be similar to the way Siberia and Alaska are almost connected.

Take Portugal as Meereen and Arizona as King's Landing. The US/Canada border could be the Wall and Kazakstan is Asshai.

http://i.imgur.com/pkG2Y.png

even if this is true if you look at the lands of the known ASOIAF map you will see how long it took dany to go from point A to point B in a span of 5 books, how could she possibly travel that far with only 2 books left and still have time for her to take over the seven kingdoms. Seems like a long shot figuratively and literally.

[Toccs]

even if this is true if you look at the lands of the known ASOIAF map you will see how long it took dany to go from point A to point B in a span of 5 books, how could she possibly travel that far with only 2 books left and still have time for her to take over the seven kingdoms. Seems like a long shot figuratively and literally.

Only if you assume that conquering the Seven Kingdoms is the endgame for her character.

[joluoto]

Eh, claiming Westeros Britain or America or Europe doesn't make much sense. Martin has used many different cultural influences to create his own cultures in Westeros and Essos.

Speaking of Continents... the maps reveal a new Continent East of Sothoryos, south of Asshai called Ulthos, so getting to Westeros by going east from Asshai might actually be a longer trip than going west.

And Quaithe's cryptic words. To get west you must go east might have happened, since Daenerys went east to Qarth and then West to Slaver's Bay. I don't think the North/ South or the Light/ Shadow things have happened, but Forward/ Back has definitely happened with Daenerys being back at the Dothraki Sea.

[EnergeticCrab]

I just really hope we get to see all these lands IN SOME WAY in the next two books. I mean how do you create such a vast fictional world and then not explore all the lands? I can't imagine the series ending and us still not know what lies West of Westeros, Asshai, The Shadow Lands, Sothryos, The Summer Isles... Why mention them and flesh out their culture/mysteries without resolving them? It would be such a let down to never find out more.

[joluoto]

I just really hope we get to see all these lands IN SOME WAY in the next two books. I mean how do you create such a vast fictional world and then not explore all the lands? I can't imagine the series ending and us still not know what lies West of Westeros, Asshai, The Shadow Lands, Sothryos, The Summer Isles... Why mention them and flesh out their culture/mysteries without resolving them? It would be such a let down to never find out more.

Because the World become much more real like and living, when places you'll never see are mentioned. And even though Asshai won't come up in A Song of Ice and Fire, who is to say Martin is done with Westeros and Essos. He might write more novellas, and perhaps Asshai will be the scenery for one of them.

[Winterz]

I think most of you underestimate the world's age. We don't know how old it is or how old the two religions/creature counterparts really are. It is very possible that it was connected at one point, maybe with the aging of the world the continents have broken apart or maybe they're still connected to some extent (remember that the world isn't flat).

As for the Shadow Lands ongoing mystery I wish it is a very magical land and that Dragons still exist there, as I simply can't believe the only Dragons we'll have to rely on are 3 juvenile ones.

[pumpkin_toodles]

In the first place I wondered why the worship of R'hllor, a religion about defeating the Othters is practicised in Asshai, a city located exactly on the other side of the world (North/West - East/South). Why do the people of Asshai care and know about the Others and the rising cold, if the Others didn't conquer Essos? The Shadow Lands in the south of Asshai are discribed as an equalence or counterpart of the Lands of Always Winter. The cold, the Others and the Great Other against, fire, dragons and R'hllor on the other hand. According to GRRM there will be no POV taking us to Asshai. When Quaithe prophesies Danaerys "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east....", further she says "...to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow". Dany refuses to go to Asshai and Quaithe answers that she will find truth there (she confirms Asshai). A prophecy is only concerning the future, not the past. When Dany talks to Quaithe they are in Quarth, but she never went east of Quarth if you take a look on every excisting map of Essos. http://cdn.serietivu...-ed-Essos-3.jpg

The Red Faith is about defeating darkness, not the Others specifically. The name of the Shadowlands implies that there's little or no sunlight there, and people from such a land worshipping a fire god makes good sense since at least some light is required for anything remotely human to survive.

Personally, I think that the Asshai'i prophecies about Azor Ahai and the Red Comet are supposed to echo the story, in our world, of Jesus Christ being visited by Magi (Zoroastrian priests) who found him by following a star.

[JLE]

And if Dany needs to both go to Westeros (to reclaim her throne) and "go to Asshai" (as in, at least, go to someone from Asshai to learn)... isn't Mellisandre from there originally? And she's right there, on the ground, in Westeros...

[joluoto]

And if Dany needs to both go to Westeros (to reclaim her throne) and "go to Asshai" (as in, at least, go to someone from Asshai to learn)... isn't Mellisandre from there originally? And she's right there, on the ground, in Westeros...

We shouldn't draw too many conclusions regarding the faith of R'hyllor from Melisandre, she seem to be some kind of heretic. I think she's the only one of them connecting the Great Other to the Others behind the Wall, even if there is a real connection, most Red Priests probably don't consider it since the religion has grown and flourished in Essos (and in Asshai which is a looong way from Westeros), and thus probably don't even know about the myths of the White Walkers.

[Toccs]

And if Dany needs to both go to Westeros (to reclaim her throne) and "go to Asshai" (as in, at least, go to someone from Asshai to learn)... isn't Mellisandre from there originally? And she's right there, on the ground, in Westeros...

No, in her POV chapter Mel's internal monologue at one point states "since before Asshia". The existence of a "before" means that she wasn't always there and thus is not native to that land. Additionally she thinks about how the Wall is a magical hinge and she hasn't been this powerful "since Asshai" and that "what shadows she brings forth here would be terrible" which combined with the evidence of her not originating in Asshai implies that she traveled there at some stage willingly in order to learn.

[alienlefay]

What if Quaithe's prophecy were only to distract Daenerys from her actual trait? I mean, she's a red priestess and the Targaryen never supported R'hllor... Besides, from what we learnt, anyone in Quarth is to rely in.

In another view, the prophecy probably wasn't to take literally? What if what Quaithe was saying is that before she gets to Westeros she'll have to pass "beneath the shadow" as in dying (like "you'll never get there, actually"). Sounds consistent with what was said about her womb... And about that, I also have the theory that somehow she'll find other dragon eggs (like if one of her dragons hatches one... I don't think she named them after a thorough examination of their actual sex): "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, when my womb quickens again and I bear a living child, Khal Drogo will return to me.". So, my reading would be that after everything is destroyed and everyone we know is dead, her egg(s) will hatch, bearing a living child (or her own, so to speak). About the Khal Drogo part, I'm still thinking about it. Suggestions? :dunno:

[Winterz]

It's Qarth*, m'lady!

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

I know land masses aren't designed to look good but if Asshai and beyond the wall connected, that would look fucking awful.

[Ivashanko]

Valyria is Rome, not Greece. ;p

[Werthead]

Valyria is Rome, not Greece. ;p

It's both, and so is Ghiscar.

Ran, I asked George about the Ghis/Valyria - Rome/Greece thing. He said that there was no clear parallel, though elements of both are in both Ghis and Valyria. He also mentioned that he sort of had the Mamluk's and Jannisseries in mind when creating the Unsullied. (in that they were slave legions)

[Giantsbabe]

I think the attempt of connecting places in ASOIAF to places in the real world will lead nowhere. Look at the north. There political quarrels with the South make you think of England (the lions, red and gold) and Scotland, but their religion is definitely rather nordic than celtic. The ASOIAF equivalent to the nordic people however is found in the ironmen, who play the role of the vikings, raiding the British Isles.

You just can't draw a line.

Westeros however in no way can be America. The only similarity to America is that there is an ocean and another big continent to the east.

In the kingsmoot, some ironmen (again, vikings) claim that there was another continent to the west, which is generally met with disbelieve.

This is definitely taken from history, as viking adventurers discovered Greenland and even sailed on into the new world.

[JLE]

If Dany must find something out from Asshai... I predict her meeting up with Mellisandre, who was a born native of the place.

[Toccs]

If Dany must find something out from Asshai... I predict her meeting up with Mellisandre, who was a born native of the place.

Melisandre isn't actcually a born native of Asshai at all. I would refer you to post #32 in which I point out several things from her POV which clearly indicate she traveled to Asshai from somewhere else.