R'hllor, the Shadow Lands, the Great Other and the Lands of Always Winter

[The Girl King]

Valyria to me has always seemed like a mix of Greece, Rome, and the legends of Atlantis. lt didn't occur to me that Valyria was a sort of echo of Rome until it's history and extensive use of slavery was revealed. westeros is Britain, no doubt, the north being scotland, the south with all its intrigue England, and the iron islanders are vikings.

"Ran, I asked George about the Ghis/Valyria - Rome/Greece thing. He said that there was no clear parallel, though elements of both are in both Ghis and Valyria. He also mentioned that he sort of had the Mamluk's and Jannisseries in mind when creating the Unsullied. (in that they were slave legions)"

l read somewhere that the Chinese used eunuch soldiers but damn it l can't remember the name of the book.

[joluoto]

The Chinese did indeed have a well educate Eunuch class at the Imperial Court.

Mamluk/ Janissaries are good examples of slave armies, though they weren't eunuchs, and were treated better than the Unsullied. Most of the Ottoman administration was made up of Janissaries, and several Grand Viziers were Janissaries. The Mamluks are an example where the Slave Army takes over the State Apparatus altogether.

[JRR Markien]

If I was looking for the "darkness" that is "filled with terrors" that the R'hlloristas talk about, I would start not in the far north at the edge of the world, but in that perpetually dark land inhabited by dragon's that is right beside the city where these myths come from.

[JRR Markien]

So you're telling me that dragons did not uniquely ex ist in Valyria? Sorry, new to the forum and all this..

[Toccs]

Yeah Bran sees them awakening in the Shadow Lands during his whole world vision while in his coma. Everything in else in the vision was events that were happening at that time, so there is no reason to doubt that the Dragons in Asshai was real also.

I think that there may be a few other scattered reference to dragons being in Asshai throughout the books, but I don't have the quotes on hand at the moment.

[T0mBombadil]

Yeah Bran sees them awakening in the Shadow Lands during his whole world vision while in his coma. Everything in else in the vision was events that were happening at that time, so there is no reason to doubt that the Dragons in Asshai was real also.

I think that there may be a few other scattered reference to dragons being in Asshai throughout the books, but I don't have the quotes on hand at the moment.

Perhaps the dragons are awakening in old valaria, no one goes there and its possible the volcano eruptions awake something many years ago.

[Jabronius Maximus]

It is a stretch that Asshai and the shadow lands are connected to the north, but one interesting thing is the 'ghost grass' that is apparently found in the shadow lands. Supposedly its pale as milk glass and murders all other grass. That sounds a lot like snow, and that may be the 'cold and dark' that R'hllor followers fear.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

It is a stretch that Asshai and the shadow lands are connected to the north, but one interesting thing is the 'ghost grass' that is apparently found in the shadow lands. Supposedly its pale as milk glass and murders all other grass. That sounds a lot like snow, and that may be the 'cold and dark' that R'hllor followers fear.

Ghost grass is an actual magical plant. We've seen this on tLoIaF.

btw, ghost grass is pinkish.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Ghost grass is an actual magical plant. We've seen this on tLoIaF.

btw, ghost grass is pinkish.

Yeah I just saw the shadow lands map, it actually is pink. Oh well so much for that theory. Also its pretty jarring how massive essos actually is, maybe it does wrap around the globe and make a trip across the sunset sea feasible.

[lordofsteadhold]

Could George r r martin tell us lies? Coz he ain't nowt let us know the story line. Com on George were waiting for winds of winter, and to those people saying the other's and the Lord of the light have no connection well old nan says to bran wat do u know of winter summer child, children live and die in darkness, when the long night comes.......! and rhollor followers say the night is dark and full of terrors

[Don Roberto]

George telling lies? Highly doubt that.

Though, speaking of lies, there's no reason to believe Qaithe is actually on Dany's side. For all we know, she could be guiding her to a specific event that's not at all what Dany's hoping for.

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

George telling lies? Highly doubt that.

Though, speaking of lies, there's no reason to believe Qaithe is actually on Dany's side. For all we know, she could be guiding her to a specific event that's not at all what Dany's hoping for.

Yeah it really does beg belief (although fitting with Dany thinking the world should offer itself up on a silver platter for her) that suddenly she gets some weird benevolent sorcerer helper lady to pop in and out of her head and give her trustworthy advice.

Even still I am highly skeptical of ALL red priests and their motivations and goals.

[rexbanner]

Gonna go out on a limb here, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong (of which I'm certain that someone would), but Asshai and/or the lands adjacent to Asshai is commonly referred to as "the shadow" right?

If so, we know that Dany has to travel east to go west if Quaithe's prophecy is to be fulfilled. Should Victarion abandon his hated brother's cause and join Dany as her new admiral (since her old one's dead), she would have a fleet of ironborn ships at her command to take her company to Westeros. If she passes through the Straits of Qarth, and continues past Asshai, she would effectively and literally pass BENEATH the shadow. Also, could she "touch the light" by sailing into the Sunset Sea towards the rising sun and arriving off the coasts of Westeros, maybe Dorne or Oldtown? She'd then arrive in the South of Westeros and make her way to the North to defeat the Others.

I'm probably not even in the right forum to discuss this, but it makes most sense to me - especially if the Reach and Stormlands are warring with Aegon and Jon Connington, she wouldn't want to land there from Essos.

[direwienerdog]

This idea that Ashai connects geographically to the North is really getting tiresome. It is geographically impossible. Even a superficial understanding of the geography of the Ice and Fire world should make that clear.

How did Aegon the Conqueror get his Dragons across the Narrow Sea? If there was not at least some small islands at one point or another between Essos and Westeros. Unless his Dragons were as small as Dany's dragons and could land aboard ships. Aegon left Valyria before the doom, maybe he made it across a type of land bridge. The trip across the sea although it called narrow takes a few months, seemingly to long a direct flight for dragons. After the "Doom of Valyria" maybe the land bridge was destroyed.

[KingInTheCave]

The idea of her sailing east and circling the world to arrive at the west of Westeros would only work if they were on a planet that looks like a beer can and has a very small diameter.

GRRM mentioned that magic will continue to increase in the last two books and will reach its peak towards the end of the story, so maybe Quaithe's prophecy has a magical solution to it.

[Toccs]

How did Aegon the Conqueror get his Dragons across the Narrow Sea? If there was not at least some small islands at one point or another between Essos and Westeros. Unless his Dragons were as small as Dany's dragons and could land aboard ships. Aegon left Valyria before the doom, maybe he made it across a type of land bridge. The trip across the sea although it called narrow takes a few months, seemingly to long a direct flight for dragons. After the "Doom of Valyria" maybe the land bridge was destroyed.

Well for starters, Aegon did not "leave Valyria before the Doom", Aegon was in fact born on Dragonstone almost a century after the Doom, it was his ancestor Aenys Targaryen "the Exile" that relocated House Targaryen and it's supporters to Dragonstone to avoid the Doom.

Secondly, the journey across the Narrow Sea does not "take a few months", as clearly demonstrated in the first Tyrion chapter in aDwD, the crossing takes at most a few days.

Finally, as to the issue of Aegon getting his dragons across the Narrow Sea, a look at the maps provided in aDwD will show that the distance from Dragonstone (where Aegon set out from) and Kings Landing is not that great at all and Dragonstone itself is probaly within eyesight of parts of mainland Westeros.

Also, yes there are indeed several islands in the Narrow Sea linking Westeros to Essos, they are appropriately called the Stepstones and they are indeed reminescent of an anicent land bridge. This land bridge howvever was destroyed thousands of years before Aegon by the Children of the Forest in an attempt to stop the First Men invading Westeros.

[Quiet Isle]

Call it crackpot, but i think Quaithe is Rhaella Targaryen, and she is in Asshai. and she is asking Dany to come to her - when dany asks what is waiting for her in Asshai, what will it give to her, Quaithe says "Truth". now the rest of the comments above about more dragons and magic can play into that as well of course. and Quaithe is coming to her now over the magic of the NOW LIT obsidian candles.

The House of the undying has a lot more meaning if you get that Rhaegar and Rhaella are still alive.

[Tim Thomason]

Well for starters, Aegon did not "leave Valyria before the Doom", Aegon was in fact born on Dragonstone almost a century after the Doom, it was his ancestor Aenys Targaryen "the Exile" that relocated House Targaryen and it's supporters to Dragonstone to avoid the Doom.

Secondly, the journey across the Narrow Sea does not "take a few months", as clearly demonstrated in the first Tyrion chapter in aDwD, the crossing takes at most a few days.

Finally, as to the issue of Aegon getting his dragons across the Narrow Sea, a look at the maps provided in aDwD will show that the distance from Dragonstone (where Aegon set out from) and Kings Landing is not that great at all and Dragonstone itself is probaly within eyesight of parts of mainland Westeros.

Also, yes there are indeed several islands in the Narrow Sea linking Westeros to Essos, they are appropriately called the Stepstones and they are indeed reminescent of an anicent land bridge. This land bridge howvever was destroyed thousands of years before Aegon by the Children of the Forest in an attempt to stop the First Men invading Westeros.

Also, dragons can fly. Am I missing something? Is there some reason why a dragon *couldn't* fly hundreds of miles over open waters? According to the Journeys map in TLOIAF, Dany travelled a slightly longer route (than Pentos to Dragonstone) on the back of Drogon.

[The Witch King of Braavos]

I think there very well could've been a land bridge, which allows for the Last hero/ Azor Ahai similarities, however an event caused its destruction.It could've been some sort of spell by the Greenseers/ CotF similar to the breaking of the arm of dorne, or maybe as recent as the doom in Valyria. This is all just speculation however. Also, Old Ghis is more reminiscent of Carthage than ancient Egypt, which fits in more with Valyria being based on Rome, at least in my opinion

[Werthead]

GRRM certainly doesn't lie about stuff. He'll misdirect or avoid the question, but generally won't lie. He actually pretty much told us Aegon was still alive (or apparently alive) about ten years ago (at a convention: "Are Rhaenys and Aegon dead?" "Certainly Rhaeny is dead,") because he didn't want to lie about it.

How did Aegon the Conqueror get his Dragons across the Narrow Sea? If there was not at least some small islands at one point or another between Essos and Westeros. Unless his Dragons were as small as Dany's dragons and could land aboard ships. Aegon left Valyria before the doom, maybe he made it across a type of land bridge. The trip across the sea although it called narrow takes a few months, seemingly to long a direct flight for dragons. After the "Doom of Valyria" maybe the land bridge was destroyed.

They flew across the Narrow Sea. It's not that wide, certainly not months. The Narrow Sea is pretty much the Mediterranean turned on its side. It's long (c. 2,000 miles) but not particularly wide. Between Pentos and Dragonstone it's about 300 miles across. From the tip of the Disputed Lands to the Broken Arm of Dorne it's only about 150 miles (with the Stepstones bridging most of the gap).

Also, let us be clear on this, GRRM has ruled out us ever seeing Asshai in the books, only in flashback at best.