R'hllor, the Shadow Lands, the Great Other and the Lands of Always Winter

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'd like to know why so many people believe R'hllor originated in Ashai?

[Jack Paper]

Assuming she can figure out how to control him, Dany has a dragon she can ride. Why would it be so difficult for her to simply fly to Asshai and back in a relatively short period of time?

[Werthead]

Assuming she can figure out how to control him, Dany has a dragon she can ride. Why would it be so difficult for her to simply fly to Asshai and back in a relatively short period of time?

Because Asshai is more than 3,000 miles from Meereen. It's further from Meereen than Meereen is from King's Landing (by a bit). Flying all that way and back again would still take a notable amount of time at a point she really can't afford it.

Plus, George R.R. Martin has ruled out us seeing Asshai in the series, only in flashback at best, which does render the question moot.

[RaidenSchumacher]

The statements by Quaithe are very interesting because if you take it literally (based on the recently released Lands of Ice and Fire map book), that would lead Dany directly to Asshai (if she goes both south and east). But why? Why should she go there and what would happen if she were to actually get there? What importance is that of hers? Is she saying there is a way to get to Westeros and the North by going through Asshai? Do these two continents actually connect on the globe (if you are in Asshai and go Northeast, will you en up somewhere near Northern Westeros like Russia/Alaska?) This is of course, if we are taking that literally.

I really have no idea what GRRM's plans are in regards to concluding this 'storyline' with R'hollor and the Others, never mind actually getting into it.

In regards to GRRM scrapping ideas, it is well known he has made some pretty drastic changes to what he originally intended, especially after ASOS, so who knows what he intends/intended.

We don't know even know the topology of the world they live in as far as I know.

For all we know it's planar, or a donut.

However when Beric Dondarrion says: "Other Side? There is no other side!" suggests perhaps a sphere. As does the presence of a star and the presence of seasons.

Eratosthenes was able to determine that the earth was a sphere using simple timed measurements of the sky. The Greeks didn't know how to build castles. The people in Ice and Fire build massive castles. So they probably are more advanced than the Greeks. So they probably know the topology of their world.

I can't imagine George RR Martin changing the others vs Fire/Life thing. It's clear that's the main point. Less clear is who is involved and how are the Direwolves involved. Obviously on the "good" side, it's called frickin Summer Bran's Wolf. However they aren't good morally necessarily. Only alive.

[Toccs]

I'd like to know why so many people believe R'hllor originated in Ashai?

Because many people seem to think that Melisandre comes from Asshai. Whereas in her POV chapter she clearly states "since before Asshai". The existance of a "before" clearly means she did not originate there, further more she speaks about it in a context that implies she went there voluntarily.

The truth is that we haven't actually seen any evidence of R'hllor any further east than Volantis and given the "wonder of the world" quality to the Temple of the Lord of Light in Volantis, it would seem that is it's heart.

The people we have seen from Asshai are either the "dark and solem" merchants Dany sees in Vaes Dothrak or masked female Shadowbinders. This would indicate that shadow binding (making shadow babies) is not something associated with R'hllor, but is something that Melisandre (and Mirri Maz Duur) learned during her time in Asshai. This can be seen also when Davos questions Mel about serving light and yet using shadow, Mel delivers a clearly well rehearsed defense about how shadow is actually a servant of light . . .from a certain point of view.

GRRM has confirmed that Melisandre is acting with her own agenda not necessarily the Red Faith's, so it is unwise to make too many assumptions about the R'hllor religion on Melisandre alone.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

The truth is that we haven't actually seen any evidence of R'hllor any further east than Volantis and given the "wonder of the world" quality to the Temple of the Lord of Light in Volantis, it would seem that is it's heart.

GRRM said that they worship the Lord of Light in Asshai and AAR prophecy is made by Asshai'i.

I think Volantene adapted R'hllor because of it's fire theme. Which was an important symbol in Valyria; dragons, fire and blood magic, volcanoes, blood of the dragon and stuff like that. And Volantene are wannabes.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Because many people seem to think that Melisandre comes from Asshai. Whereas in her POV chapter she clearly states "since before Asshai". The existance of a "before" clearly means she did not originate there, further more she speaks about it in a context that implies she went there voluntarily.

The truth is that we haven't actually seen any evidence of R'hllor any further east than Volantis and given the "wonder of the world" quality to the Temple of the Lord of Light in Volantis, it would seem that is it's heart.

The people we have seen from Asshai are either the "dark and solem" merchants Dany sees in Vaes Dothrak or masked female Shadowbinders. This would indicate that shadow binding (making shadow babies) is not something associated with R'hllor, but is something that Melisandre (and Mirri Maz Duur) learned during her time in Asshai. This can be seen also when Davos questions Mel about serving light and yet using shadow, Mel delivers a clearly well rehearsed defense about how shadow is actually a servant of light . . .from a certain point of view.

GRRM has confirmed that Melisandre is acting with her own agenda not necessarily the Red Faith's, so it is unwise to make too many assumptions about the R'hllor religion on Melisandre alone.

GRRM said that they worship the Lord of Light in Asshai and AAR prophecy is made by Asshai'i.

I think Volantene adapted R'hllor because of it's fire theme. Which was an important symbol in Valyria; dragons, fire and blood magic, volcanoes, blood of the dragon and stuff like that. And Volantene are wannabes.

Toccs, This is very much akin to my own beliefs about the origins of r'hllor. I have done a lot of re reading about the red god and have a solid idea about where it comes from. Whoch makes me REALLY surprised to read your post Mrs Grumpy, do you have a link to that SSM as I'd like to read it word for word. I fully believe that if you read the text everything points to R'hllor springing up from the ashes of valleria I think personally in Lys but possibly Volantis. I think the text in Ashai about AAR is a documentation of the prophesy not the place of origin. So if at all possible please link to the SSM. so I can pour over every word and see how I think it impacts upon my theory.

[Toccs]

I think that the Red Faith being that it is by and large the religion of the slaves, most likely began in the Red Darkness of the Fourteen Fires of Valyria amongst the slaves who were worked to death in that hell.

.

I think Volantene adapted R'hllor because of it's fire theme. Which was an important symbol in Valyria; dragons, fire and blood magic, volcanoes, blood of the dragon and stuff like that. And Volantene are wannabes.

The Volantenes proper (as in in the actual Valyrian nobles behind the Black Wall) do not worship R'hllor. Master Benerro the High Priest of the R'hllor religion is actively trying to incite a rebellion against them and is preaching that it is AA (Dany's) destiny to overthrow them and free the slaves. For their part the Valyrians attempted to hire the Golden Company to assassinate Master Benerro.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Good points Toccs, perhaps you'd be interested in this thread I started on R'hllor.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/90666-examining-the-cult-of-the-red-godwhat-is-going-on-with-them-there-red-priests/

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think we all agree that the Volantenes either adapted or created R'hllorism.

Tocc,

I think I confused stuff, sorry.

The Weirwood Eyes,

I searched for SSM but I couldn't find it. But, well, he said they worship R'hllor in Asshai too. That's it.

The problem is R'hllorism is all around Azor Ahai and this prophecy is made by Asshai'i. Other than that I'm okay with your idea.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I just don't see any textural evidence that AAR is a legend FROM Ashai though and certainly there is non to say that they worhsip R'hllor there, and 100% certain Mellisandre is not a native of Ashai.

I really hope someone can eventually dig up what he said on it. Is there any point in asking on the forum about it and if so where would I ask?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I just don't see any textural evidence that AAR is a legend FROM Ashai though and certainly there is non to say that they worhsip R'hllor there, and 100% certain Mellisandre is not a native of Ashai.

I really hope someone can eventually dig up what he said on it. Is there any point in asking on the forum about it and if so where would I ask?

Yay, I found the SSM. Click!

I'm also sure that Melisandre is not a native of Asshai.

AAR prophecy is from Asshai.

The red priests speak of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and the hero Azor Ahai, Warrior of Light, Son of Fire. There is a prophecy in ancient books of Asshai that after a long summer an evil, cold darkness shall fall on the world to be combated by Azor Ahai reborn wielding Lightbringer.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thanks. I finally found it too.

It does rather screw with my thoughts on R'hllor :/ hmmmm

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Sorry Mrs Grumpy, can I just ask, where the Quote about the prophesy is from? Is it text? if so which book and chapter I don't have ereader so finding passages takes hours.

[Toccs]

Yay, I found the SSM. Click!

I'm also sure that Melisandre is not a native of Asshai.

AAR prophecy is from Asshai.

Thanks for the link.

One could say that "R'hllor is worshiped in Braavos" and be correct, without it meaning that it is the centre of the faith.

We haven't seen any evidence of R'hllor worship east of Volantis, not a sign in Salver's Bay or in Qarth and the none of the people we meet who are native to Asshai are R'hllor worshipers. Mirri Maz Duur also went to Asshai and seemingly received the same training as Melisandre and she is not a R'hllor worshipper.

I don't doubt that there may be a presence there because, like Braavos it seems to be a trade hub and one where magic is practiced freely with tales of Aeromancers and Shadowbinders and whatnot. But all the evidence suggests that the Red Faith is based in the Free Cities.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is not necessarily something specific to the Red Faith just because they are currently preaching it for their own purposes.

The official R'hllor interpretation as preached by Master Benerro is that AA (Dany) will overthrow the last remaining Valyrians and free the slaves to live happily ever after. That's what the Red Faith believe the prophecy is about.

I think we all agree that the Volantenes either adapted or created R'hllorism.

Tocc,

No, I disagree with that. Master Benerro the First Servant of the Lord of Light, the pope figure of the Red Faith is actively trying to incite a rebellion against the Volantenes. The Volantenes are so scared by this because R'hllor is worshiped by all their slaves that they tried to hire the Golden Company to attack the Temple of the Lord of Light and kill Master Benerro.

Not only did the Volantenes not adapt or create R'hllorism, they are the number one enemies of it. It's the religion of the slaves.

[For_The_Good_Of_The_Realm]

One of the important questions to be addressed here is whether the Azor Ahai prophecy can relate to The Last Hero and The Long Night. And how both of them may have connections to the prophecy of the promised prince, believed by some Targaryens. Tricky, isn't it ? Any thoughts ?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Toccs,

What natives of Asshai? To be honest, the only native of Asshai that we know is Quaithe. We don't know anything about her. And she could be someone from the west.

The Weirwood Eyes,

aCoK, Davos I, it's the chapter where Melisandre burns the Seven.

[Fat Mac]

GRRM certainly doesn't lie about stuff. He'll misdirect or avoid the question, but generally won't lie. He actually pretty much told us Aegon was still alive (or apparently alive) about ten years ago (at a convention: "Are Rhaenys and Aegon dead?" "Certainly Rhaeny is dead,") because he didn't want to lie about it.

So he's basically Varys ;)

[Reginald blackfield]

Well, I think that GRRM is giving us a clue when he says "it's all fantasy".

We need to understand what "to pass beneath the Shadow" mean. I'm thinking it doesn't necessarily mean going to Asshai. Sure, Asshai is Asshai-by-the-Shadow, but maybe "passing beneath the shadow" means something else.

This is your opinion, you read what you want in GRRM's world. Personally, I do not see Westeros as North America at all. I see the lands South of the Neck as Europe (I see Dorne more like Spain), and North of the Neck as Russia. But it's not a one-to-one mapping as the free cities are also indeed in Europe (Italian nation states like Venice), and to me Asshai is more like Japan, Yi-Ti China as you said, Summer Isles Indonesia and Qarth is India. But that's just me.

I agree with you about Westeros, however I think bayasabhad, kayakayayana and shamyriana are more like India than Qarth is, I think Qarth is more like Mesopotamia especially since both are approximately in the centre of the world, the summer isles are in my opinion too far west to be Indonesia but yeah we all have our own opinions.

My idea is that the west coast of the sunset sea is directly east of the shadow lands and that Dany must cross it too reach the west coast of westeros.

[Toccs]

Toccs,

What natives of Asshai? To be honest, the only native of Asshai that we know is Quaithe. We don't know anything about her. And she could be someone from the west.

Yes Quaithe, described every time we see her as "a Shadowbinder from Asshai" not "a Red Priest". She has never once mentioned anything about R'hllor, the Lord of Light. Dany sees boatloads of "masked Shadowbinders out of Asshai" at the docks in Qarth and Slaver's Bay, she sees "dark and solemn men from Asshai" in Vaes Dothrak and not a sight or mention of anything remotely R'hllor related in conjunction with them or indeed at any of those locations.

We hear tales of Aeromancers and Pyromancers and Shadowbinders and Dragons and masked men from the Shadowlands in Asshai and nothing about Red Priests or anything R'hllor related.

It strains credulity to think that the R'hllor religion would be founded in Asshai and then somehow tranplant itself to the slaves of Valyria without touching any of the lands in between even a bit

Isn't it more likely that the fire obsessed Red Faith of the slaves of Valyria would have it's origins in the Red Darkness where those slaves were worked to death amongst fire?