From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

[brashcandy]

Never mind.

[Pod The Impaler]

I like Lummel's assessment of Ser Ilyn as a living archetype of death, and it's interesting how from the very beginning Sansa is so aware and terrified of his essential purpose. Add in LB's point that he's a nasty piece of work and you come to a figure who represents a zero sum total of redemption or hope. We've noted Sansa's inspirational qualities: her ability to transform lives and restore faith; what Payne symbolizes then is completely antithetical to her values.

Well, also some (me included) that Sansa has a touch of the Greensight. Are her instincts a bit telepathic, a bit precognitive ?

Odd, though, that she was so wrong about Joffrey, even when Lady was alive. Lady reacted to Ser Ilyn like he was radioactive or something.

EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, I agrees. In terms of The Seven, Ser Ilyn represents The Stranger. Bald (which is akin to featureless), in his rusted armour (showing something symbolic of post-mortem decay) and silent (silence being associated with the Stranger already).

[bgona]

Sandor and Ilyan both can represent the Stranger. But I associate Sandor with the death as a change (like at the Tarot that the Death can means a change). While Ser Ilyan represents more the void. Which is more frighting (people doesn´t fear the death really, they fear that after the death is nothing).

Ser Ilyn is like an empty person, that lives for instinct, but all this deftness, his room is like nothing is important. It is like the room of somebody that doesn´t care for nothing, that is broken. He doesn´t take joy of live. He laughs when see Jaime fall trying to improve his swordskill with the left hand, seeing other fall gives him joy. This can be see as a spark of wickedness or as a spark of starting live inside him.

I think it is more the first: wickedness.

Le Cygne: you know that I don´t agree with you about the show (S1 was great, I understand the changes, even agree with LF taking Sandor story, even with Ross, they even did great job with L+R=J, but S2 had a lot of difference with the books and I didn´t like how it were changed a lot of characters, not only Sandor, but also Cat, Shae that is so different from the book, Jeyne, only that I believe it was better done was with Daenerys, better the one of the books). But I don´t believe this is the proper place to discuss it.

Anyway, as I have told you, about tastes each one has their owns and just for that deserve all my respects. And the world will be so sad if we all like the same things.

[Daenerys is my queen]

It makes sense to me, that's what I was trying to say. I think they were helping each other, they are both pushing each other in just the right directions.

Great! Yep, definitely.

I'm coming late to this conversation but want to throw my support behind Lummel's idea. He's introduced as a character of death, he is the would-be killer of Lady, he kills Ned, he's the potential killer of Sansa (during the BBW). His sword is covered with old blood - physical remains that remind us of his association with death. His room is dirty and foul, very death-like. In Feast, when Jaime talks to him, Payne's solution regarding Cersei is to put his finger across his throat. He has no tongue, so he's a silent killer, impartial.

I don't know if he will have a specific influence on Sansa's story and I don't see how at this point. I saw him as more a physical symbol of what is actually surrounding Sansa. Her family is dying, she's threatened with loss of life, she's in the city while men are dying. She's made complicit in murder by LF. Even though Sansa has never actually killed anyone, death surrounds her.

:agree:

[Kittykatknits]

Well, also some (me included) that Sansa has a touch of the Greensight. Are her instincts a bit telepathic, a bit precognitive ?

Odd, though, that she was so wrong about Joffrey, even when Lady was alive. Lady reacted to Ser Ilyn like he was radioactive or something.

I like this, had not thought to associate the Greensight with Sansa before. There are theories (that I subscribe to) that Lady's death has resulted in Sansa's warg skills manifesting by her becoming an empath. Her instincts do strike me as being almost telepathic or precognitive. She tends to describe those events the same way, an instinct will come over her or she will find heself acting without knowing why. Each time, she manages to do exactly the correct thing. Greensight would certainly explain why she behaves this way sometimes. It needn't be as strong as Bran for it to still influence her behavior. It also ties in with my slightly crackpot ideas on the Starks based upon what we have read so far.

However, as I understand it, greensight is something that needs to be awakened within a person. What would have been this trigger for Sansa? I would say it's the death of her father but her decision to touch Sandor's should during the hand's tourney doesn't match that. So, I'm not sure. I still really like this though.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I like this, had not thought to associate the Greensight with Sansa before. There are theories (that I subscribe to) that Lady's death has resulted in Sansa's warg skills manifesting by her becoming an empath. Her instincts do strike me as being almost telepathic or precognitive. She tends to describe those events the same way, an instinct will come over her or she will find heself acting without knowing why. Each time, she manages to do exactly the correct thing. Greensight would certainly explain why she behaves this way sometimes. It needn't be as strong as Bran for it to still influence her behavior. It also ties in with my slightly crackpot ideas on the Starks based upon what we have read so far.

However, as I understand it, greensight is something that needs to be awakened within a person. What would have been this trigger for Sansa? I would say it's the death of her father but her decision to touch Sandor's should during the hand's tourney doesn't match that. So, I'm not sure. I still really like this though.

That's a very interesting theory. Maybe all the traumatic events in KL in general could have triggered her greensight-if she indeed does have it. And it's possible that it could have started in a different way than Bran's did. Like it started more gradually instead of all at once. I think that would make a lot of sense for Sansa's character since she is very subtle so it makes sense that if she did have greensight that it would come slowly and subtly instead of all at once the way Bran's did.

[brashcandy]

However, as I understand it, greensight is something that needs to be awakened within a person. What would have been this trigger for Sansa? I would say it's the death of her father but her decision to touch Sandor's should during the hand's tourney doesn't match that. So, I'm not sure. I still really like this though.

Interesting... I've always connected Sansa's instinctive qualities to the death of her wolf, and the fact that Ned probably did the very next best thing in sending the pelt back to the North so that some connection between Sansa and the animal remains. Perhaps it's no surprise then that she forms the deepest bond with another animal like character in the Hound.

[bgona]

I´m not sure that she is a greensighter but I´m sure that many things that she wish turn out to be true. And they are a lot of hints inside of her POV.

Maybe this is one of the reasons why Sansa POV are so hard to write GRRM.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I dislike this theory. It's already stretching that all six are wargs based on the numbers we got out of how uncommon they are.

I see Sansa as simply a natural people person. There are people who naturally know how to treat people. No magic needed.

[brashcandy]

I dislike this theory. It's already stretching that all six are wargs based on the numbers we got out of how uncommon they are.

I see Sansa as simply a natural people person. There are people who naturally know how to treat people. No magic needed.

Point taken :) Do they have to be mutually exclusive though? Obviously the greensight theory is entering into crackpot, but I do believe there's evidence in the text that Sansa often behaves in fairly extraordinary ways (acting on instinct) along with her excellent grasp of the rules of courtesy and thoughtfulness towards others.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Point taken :) Do they have to be mutually exclusive though? Obviously the greensight theory is entering into crackpot, but I do believe there's evidence in the text that Sansa often behaves in fairly extraordinary ways (acting on instinct) along with her excellent grasp of the rules of courtesy and thoughtfulness towards others.

Touche.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa warging is unavoidable. She already has suspicious amount of reference to birds in her pov chapters. Her quick bond with that blind dog at fingers. I personally can't wait till she wargs. Sansa warging a bird would be so fitting. For so long Sansa has been imprisoned. It would be beautiful and poetic that she wargs into the animal that is often associated with freedom *sighs*

[brashcandy]

Well one of Sweetrobin's favourite stories is of the Winged Knight, and right now he's badly in need of a protector. The WK had to fly on the back of a falcon, but we all know Sansa can do a little better than that ;) There are so many directions her story could take, sometimes it makes your head spin.

[Kittykatknits]

Point taken :) Do they have to be mutually exclusive though? Obviously the greensight theory is entering into crackpot, but I do believe there's evidence in the text that Sansa often behaves in fairly extraordinary ways (acting on instinct) along with her excellent grasp of the rules of courtesy and thoughtfulness towards others.

That's kinda what I was getting to even though I know the theory borders on crackpot. We know all of the Stark kids are wargs because Martin told us. We know Bran has the greensight and we are seeing developments with Jon. Why is it limited to those too? Is it possible all the Stark kids have it, to varying degrees or different ways of developing?

I know there's lots of discussion on why there needs to be a Stark in WF and questions about their past such as potential connections to the CotF and whatnot. Maybe this is part of? Pure conjecture I know, but it has me curious.

[brashcandy]

I know there's lots of discussion on why there needs to be a Stark in WF and questions about their past such as potential connections to the CotF and whatnot. Maybe this is part of? Pure conjecture I know, but it has me curious.

Me too. All of the Stark children have been scattered throughout Westeros and Essos, but Winterfell remains a binding symbol for all of them that seems to surpass the normal sentimental attachments of home. I'm not sure about what the nature of that is (the crypts, the godswood, the lichyard) and whether it varies with each child, but it would be interesting to explore further.

[Kittykatknits]

Me too. All of the Stark children have been scattered throughout Westeros and Essos, but Winterfell remains a binding symbol for all of them that seems to surpass the normal sentimental attachments of home. I'm not sure about what the nature of that is (the crypts, the godswood, the lichyard) and whether it varies with each child, but it would be interesting to explore further.

This is it exactly. Their memories give a wonderful sense of family and a loving home but I also notice what is in the background of their memories. It's not a special dinner around the table. Jon remembers Sansa with Lady, Sansa chooses to build the godswood and not the sept, Arya remembers them all in the Crypt. Plus, there is Bran's comment about how WF is broken but still standing. It's an almost curious way to put it, if that makes sense. I know there are many other examples that I'm not putting forth.

Perhaps I am stretching to far when I say that it is almost as if the North/BR/Bran/WF is almost calling them home in a way? The need to have a Stark in WF does not feel the same as the other famous house saying - A Lannister always pays his debts. Is there a reason why a Stark needs to be in WF, and by extension in the North?

I need to think about this some more and someone can push me back if I'm veering to far in to crackpottery.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Sansa warging is unavoidable. She already has suspicious amount of reference to birds in her pov chapters. Her quick bond with that blind dog at fingers. I personally can't wait till she wargs. Sansa warging a bird would be so fitting. For so long Sansa has been imprisoned. It would be beautiful and poetic that she wargs into the animal that is often associated with freedom *sighs*

Sansa warging a bird would be amazing. I wonder if she could,though. I always thought that the Starks could just warg their direwolves. Of course, now Bran is going to be able to warg pretty much anything so I guess Sansa could too. Especially if brash's greensight theory is true.

As for why there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell, I always thought that it was just because they kept order in the North better than anyone else. But it certainly could be something more than that. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Sansa warging a bird would be amazing. I wonder if she could,though. I always thought that the Starks could just warg their direwolves. Of course, now Bran is going to be able to warg pretty much anything so I guess Sansa could too. Especially if brash's greensight theory is true.

As for why there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell, I always thought that it was just because they kept order in the North better than anyone else. But it certainly could be something more than that. :)

I think there is something more and that the original truth behind that saying may have been lost over time.

Also, Arya warged a Cat in Dance so they aren't limited to their wolves.

[Pod The Impaler]

That's kinda what I was getting to even though I know the theory borders on crackpot. We know all of the Stark kids are wargs because Martin told us. We know Bran has the greensight and we are seeing developments with Jon. Why is it limited to those too? Is it possible all the Stark kids have it, to varying degrees or different ways of developing?

Actually, I always thought Bran had it but not Jon (I've seen nothing to indicate Jon has it). Rickon ? Maybe him too - after all, he did have the dream about Eddard's death too.

That being said, of the Stark children, Bran seems very empathic as well (maybe the most ?). Perhaps Sansa and Bran are the greenseers or empaths of the family; both were Catelyn's favourite children, perhaos the most like Cat in their nature.

Pperhaps the warging is a Stark trait, but the tendency towards being empathic or having green dreams is perhaps a Tully trait ? (Maybe it is just activated by the acquisition of their direwolves, and the awakening of magic in the world.)

Of these things, Bran alone has greensight and skinchanging. Others seem to be just one. Or maybe Sansa would have had full greenseer ability, if Lady had not died? And since Lady did die, it has limited her, and so she is somewhat empathic but will never reach her full potential with regard to being precognitive.

[bgona]

Why Bran and Rickon dreamed about Nedd death?

Who was truly the one that saw it? Only Sansa. Arya was there but she didn´t see it.

Anyway Arya could have warg Nymeria and told about it to Summer and Shaggydog thru her. But I doubt it.

I trully believe that it is a connection between the Stark children, even the possibility of a coincidence is there.